One step forward 3 steps back...

Absinthe · June 2014

...every single patch.

First off, I love the Elder Scroll series. I had always wondered what it would be like to share my experiences in the single player versions with other people. When I heard that a MMO Elder Scrolls was on the horizon I was ecstatic. My dreams had been answered, right? When a beta was announced I immediately signed up. Once I was accepted into beta, about a year ago, I spent a whole weekend playing the game. I was totally enthralled. It was exactly what I had been hoping for - sure it was buggy as hell but it was beta. I could deal with that and within 2-3 hours of playing I had made up my mind that I was going to buy the game, support the developers, and make ESO my game of choice for the forseeable future.

Once I got into early access many of the same bugs that had plagued beta were still there. I convinced myself that perhaps once the official release went live many of those issues would be corrected. To my dismay few were fixed and most were not - and a few new bugs were introduced. I reminded myself that it has become all too common that MMO's will have a rough launch so I persevered. Surely everything would be fixed over time, right?

Next - new content! Even though I had been told by a few PTS players that I know that Craglorn was not ready for release it was released anyway. I was mildly shocked that it wasn't nearly as awful as I had been made to believe. Godlike veteran mobs one shotting people made me chuckle. I thought this was all ancedotal accounts of the unfortunate until I went to see for myself but that experience wasn't pretty and resulted in a few unnecessary repair bills. No big deal, ESO is now hard mode and I shall have to adapt. However the Dev's admitted that this was not intended and patched their mistake. It seemed innocuous at first but in reality it belied the true nature of the developers - they have no clue what they are doing.

I will not touch on pvp matters (as they do not directly affect all players) but the gross imbalance between classes and more importantly between the choice of magicka/stamina based builds is more than enough reason to wonder...do the dev's have any clue what they are doing? Now classes are getting unfairly nerfed instead of other classes being brought up to that level. (I understand the concept of power creep.) Either way, nothing short of a complete overhaul to stamina builds will fix this. Otherwise we will all be using resto/destro staves and light armor.

"Play your way!"...with whatever motif you want on your staves and light armor!

BUT WHAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT THE DEV'S TAKE FEEDBACK FROM A SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS INSTEAD OF TESTING/BALANCING THE GAME THEMSELVES!

Not only is that lazy but it reeks of incompetence Zenimax.

At this point I would much rather my $15 per month go to those players who you beseech for input as opposed giving it to Zenimax. Even when you listen to your "exalted few" YOU STILL GET IT WRONG! What's worse is that every patch you introduce more bugs than you fixed.

I shall say that again...

Every patch you introduce more bugs than you had "supposedly" fixed.

I still love the game but damn get your $#!+ together Zenimax.

tl/dr - You done F*'ed it up Zenimax and my

is quickly fading.

(Just so you know I play a destro/resto vet 12 sorc and a destro/resto vet 12 NB. I believe it is absolutely ludicrous that I should be forced to do so in end game content.)

vyal · June 2014

At least Zenimax is falling into the same traps as all other MMO companies (listening to "hardcore" guilds). So they've got that going for them, which is nice.

Absinthe · June 2014

Lets just hope they do not blow up the golf course while trying to kill a gopher.

Hilgara · June 2014

I can handle them Fkin up. As long as they hold up their hand and admit they fked up so we all know what was intended and what wasnt

Marcaeus · June 2014

This isn't alpha, nor beta anymore. They really should be giving out courtesy time for all their failures recently that have caused the game to be unplayable. That would be the smart thing to do before there's mass exodus. I think people are generally getting to their breaking point for this game. Frankly I'm getting tired of pointing out pvp imbalances and game breaking bugs. This should be a no brainer for the developer team. Whomever is in charge or game direction is not doing a satisfactory job.

Absinthe · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

I can handle them Fkin up. As long as they hold up their hand and admit they fked up so we all know what was intended and what wasnt

I can agree with that.

Problem is that they rarely do so. If they were more honest, upfront, and proactive with their customers that might assuage any discontent. The long downtime while ESO was patched wasn't a major concern of mine. Their lack of communication in regards to the length of the downtime was a bit disconcerting. More so was/is the issues that occurred after the patch.

vyal · June 2014

Agreed. "Fixes before Features" used to be a mantra. Now it's just dreamland.

I mean, there's still skill morphs in the game that simply don't do what they say. They've been broken for months, before and since launch. Months. MONTHS.

It's one sql query update statement to one row in one table in one database, and they can't do it in MONTHS? eeeg. that level of fail is truly frightening.

benadams1864 · June 2014

This is the best post I have ever read. To see another intelligent person out there is a breath of fresh air.

As I agree with you on almost every point, there is one thing that needs to be said.

The fact the Zen takes its ques from a select few is true but, have you looked around lately, whom else should they listen to? These message boards are not exactly a Mensa meeting. I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of this community and its me, me, me, I want so I can be cool mentality. You could probably count on one hand the number of people who are actually interested in improving this game for the benefit of everyone, even if that means weakening their character.

If no one demands better than mediocrity, then mediocrity is all we will get.

Blade_07 · June 2014

Yeah, I sometimes wonder if they truly know their game as well. Its VERY clear that we are beta testing this game and paying them for it. They are laughing their arses off all the way to the bank...."SUCKERS!!!"..... Have they ever hot fixed this game at all? Seems that we have to wait about a month to get an update from them. AND it adds new bugs..... complete incompetence on their part indeed. I think they need to call up Square Enix and have a good chin wag with those Japanese and learn how its done the right way!!! FFXI is 100% flawless and they NEVER add a single bug in their game ever!!! And FF14 was broken on release and they had the balls and fairness to take the damn game down! And they fixed the sucker until it was working right BEFORE they introduced it back to the public. At least they had the pride and professionalism in their game to do the right thing! That impresses me a lot!!! Think I'm gunna go buy and play their game instead of sticking around for all this constant crap! Zenimax cares more about the consolers then they do for us PC players. Notice they have not released the game yet for console? Yeah......... >.< But at the rate they are going they will never have it ready for console unless they some how pull their heads outta their arses and man up and get things going right! I have been trying so very hard to maintain patience with them but they keep disappointing me with all there so called updates. Fix something and break 3 other things....really makes me truly wonder if they know their own game. At this point one has to know that the evidence speaks for its self.
Zenimax Online(they dont deserve the mighty title of Elder Scrolls)has done a sloppy job at putting this game together in my opinion. With that said, I really do love a great many thing about the game and I believe it has much potential if they could just flat out fix things in a much faster rate and give us hot fixes for obvious screw ups!

Blade_07 · June 2014

vyal wrote: »

At least Zenimax is falling into the same traps as all other MMO companies (listening to "hardcore" guilds). So they've got that going for them, which is nice.

This is not a attack on you sir but I dont understand your statement. You say they are falling into a trap but then say that is a good thing. Getting trapped is not a good thing....lol

Absinthe · June 2014

benadams1864 wrote: »

This is the best post I have ever read. To see another intelligent person out there is a breath of fresh air.

As I agree with you on almost every point, there is one thing that needs to be said.

The fact the Zen takes it ques from a select few is true but, have you looked around lately, whom else should they listen to? These message boards are not exactly a Mensa meeting. I place the blame squarely on the shoulders of this community and its me, me, me, I want so I can be cool mentality. You could probably count on one hand the number of people who are actually interested in improving this game for the benefit of everyone, even if that means weakening their character.

If no one demands better than mediocrity, then mediocrity is all we will get.

Very good point sir.

Zabalah · June 2014

Absinthe wrote: »

BUT WHAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT THE DEV'S TAKE FEEDBACK FROM A SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS INSTEAD OF TESTING/BALANCING THE GAME THEMSELVES!

Hmmm.... point me please to your factual and official declaration of this broadly knee jerk accusation that smacks of sensationalism to suit your own opinion?

SootyTX · June 2014

Absinthe wrote: »

<snip>

real tl/dr version - big wall of text saying...well, pretty much nothing at all

No constructive arguments whatsover? What class nerfs are you upset about? You complain about them listening to 'a select few', no doubt referencing the ridiculous uproar over the guilds they talk to, without any idea of how the industry operates. Here's a clue, every MMO does that, and for good reason - most players are absolutely clueless when it comes to detailed and accurate feedback. If you don't like it, don't play the genre, period.

I suppose if the 'select few' was actually a select one, i.e. you, you'd be fine? It's complete hypocrisy - you are screaming about them listening to other players but not you, as if your view is more important.

Yet you actually offer zero input. It's just another whine post. Admittedly moderately better written than most but that's all it is.

<wanders off to pre-emptively ignore the inevitable 'fanboi' comments from the sheep>

Ragnar_Lodbrok · June 2014

Absinthe wrote: »

...every single patch.

First off, I love the Elder Scroll series. I had always wondered what it would be like to share my experiences in the single player versions with other people. When I heard that a MMO Elder Scrolls was on the horizon I was ecstatic. My dreams had been answered, right? When a beta was announced I immediately signed up. Once I was accepted into beta, about a year ago, I spent a whole weekend playing the game. I was totally enthralled. It was exactly what I had been hoping for - sure it was buggy as hell but it was beta. I could deal with that and within 2-3 hours of playing I had made up my mind that I was going to buy the game, support the developers, and make ESO my game of choice for the forseeable future.

Once I got into early access many of the same bugs that had plagued beta were still there. I convinced myself that perhaps once the official release went live many of those issues would be corrected. To my dismay few were fixed and most were not - and a few new bugs were introduced. I reminded myself that it has become all too common that MMO's will have a rough launch so I persevered. Surely everything would be fixed over time, right?

Next - new content! Even though I had been told by a few PTS players that I know that Craglorn was not ready for release it was released anyway. I was mildly shocked that it wasn't nearly as awful as I had been made to believe. Godlike veteran mobs one shotting people made me chuckle. I thought this was all ancedotal accounts of the unfortunate until I went to see for myself but that experience wasn't pretty and resulted in a few unnecessary repair bills. No big deal, ESO is now hard mode and I shall have to adapt. However the Dev's admitted that this was not intended and patched their mistake. It seemed innocuous at first but in reality it belied the true nature of the developers - they have no clue what they are doing.

I will not touch on pvp matters (as they do not directly affect all players) but the gross imbalance between classes and more importantly between the choice of magicka/stamina based builds is more than enough reason to wonder...do the dev's have any clue what they are doing? Now classes are getting unfairly nerfed instead of other classes being brought up to that level. (I understand the concept of power creep.) Either way, nothing short of a complete overhaul to stamina builds will fix this. Otherwise we will all be using resto/destro staves and light armor.

"Play your way!"...with whatever motif you want on your staves and light armor!

BUT WHAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT THE DEV'S TAKE FEEDBACK FROM A SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS INSTEAD OF TESTING/BALANCING THE GAME THEMSELVES!

Not only is that lazy but it reeks of incompetence Zenimax.

At this point I would much rather my $15 per month go to those players who you beseech for input as opposed giving it to Zenimax. Even when you listen to your "exalted few" YOU STILL GET IT WRONG! What's worse is that every patch you introduce more bugs than you fixed.

I shall say that again...

Every patch you introduce more bugs than you had "supposedly" fixed.

I still love the game but damn get your $#!+ together Zenimax.

tl/dr - You done F*'ed it up Zenimax and my is quickly fading.

(Just so you know I play a destro/resto vet 12 sorc and a destro/resto vet 12 NB. I believe it is absolutely ludicrous that I should be forced to do so in end game content.)

I completely agree, an elementary school class could develop better than these guys.

Absinthe · June 2014

Zabalah wrote: »

Absinthe wrote: »

BUT WHAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT THE DEV'S TAKE FEEDBACK FROM A SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS INSTEAD OF TESTING/BALANCING THE GAME THEMSELVES!

Hmmm.... point me please to your factual and official declaration of this broadly knee jerk accusation that smacks of sensationalism to suit your own opinion?

I shall refer you to the guilds Alacrity and Entropy Rising.

I have nothing against either guild and I know quite a few individuals in each. When they tell me that they are switching to another voice com because a Zenimax employee is having a "meeting" with them I tend to believe them. Also, should you need more proof, there are streams in which @ZOS_JessicaFolsom has not only been directly involved but you can hear her voice.

Is that knee jerk enough for you?

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

Absinthe wrote: »

Zabalah wrote: »

Absinthe wrote: »

BUT WHAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT THE DEV'S TAKE FEEDBACK FROM A SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS INSTEAD OF TESTING/BALANCING THE GAME THEMSELVES!

Hmmm.... point me please to your factual and official declaration of this broadly knee jerk accusation that smacks of sensationalism to suit your own opinion?

I shall refer you to the guilds Alacrity and Entropy Rising.

I have nothing against either guild and I know quite a few individuals in each. When they tell me that they are switching to another voice com because a Zenimax employee is having a "meeting" with them I tend to believe them. Also, should you need more proof, there are streams in which @ZOS_JessicaFolsom has not only been directly involved but you can hear her voice.

Is that knee jerk enough for you?

The we can directly blame those two guilds for the melee stamina issue and useless heavy armor builds.

Ragnar_Lodbrok · June 2014

Absinthe wrote: »

Zabalah wrote: »

Absinthe wrote: »

BUT WHAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT THE DEV'S TAKE FEEDBACK FROM A SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS INSTEAD OF TESTING/BALANCING THE GAME THEMSELVES!

Hmmm.... point me please to your factual and official declaration of this broadly knee jerk accusation that smacks of sensationalism to suit your own opinion?

I shall refer you to the guilds Alacrity and Entropy Rising.

I have nothing against either guild and I know quite a few individuals in each. When they tell me that they are switching to another voice com because a Zenimax employee is having a "meeting" with them I tend to believe them. Also, should you need more proof, there are streams in which @ZOS_JessicaFolsom has not only been directly involved but you can hear her voice.

Is that knee jerk enough for you?

Its not surprising to me one bit that ZOS shows favoritism, its one of the many nails in the f2p coffin, which is where this game is heading.

Sieghart · June 2014

Lots of zero input "ooh im giving actual feedback listen to me!"
from people who are saying the same things in every mmo forum.
Same thing being stated in every mmo forum which says what?
MMO's aren't something that is 100% ever.
Want to play an MMO? find one you enjoy and play it, say things which matter to the people who want to play it.

You don't want to play? We don't really want to hear from you. You are not helping anyone but yourself.

I think it is much better to have someone say, "Hey, I really enjoy playing but these are some things I would like to see happen." Then have a realization that they are not the centre of the world and these things wont happen over night.

Absinthe · June 2014

SootyTX wrote: »

Absinthe wrote: »

<snip>

real tl/dr version - big wall of text saying...well, pretty much nothing at all

No constructive arguments whatsover? What class nerfs are you upset about? You complain about them listening to 'a select few', no doubt referencing the ridiculous uproar over the guilds they talk to, without any idea of how the industry operates. Here's a clue, every MMO does that, and for good reason - most players are absolutely clueless when it comes to detailed and accurate feedback. If you don't like it, don't play the genre, period.

I suppose if the 'select few' was actually a select one, i.e. you, you'd be fine? It's complete hypocrisy - you are screaming about them listening to other players but not you, as if your view is more important.

Yet you actually offer zero input. It's just another whine post. Admittedly moderately better written than most but that's all it is.

<wanders off to pre-emptively ignore the inevitable 'fanboi' comments from the sheep>

I do not feel the need to reiterate what has been on these forums before, what is well known to all of us, and quite frankly I wished to refrain from making my wall of text viewable from the international space station. As for myself; hell no they should not talk to me as I would rather balance my bank statements as opposed to balancing their game.

My thoughts in regards to the exact point with which you have an issue is that, TRULY, I would much rather those fellow gamers be responsible for game balance than the Zenimax Dev's themselves. And it is disconcerting that Zenimax only lends a partial, and somewhat deaf ear, to the feedback that they are given.

Hilgara · June 2014

This is not unheard of

http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_7&page=4

Absinthe · June 2014

Hilgara wrote: »

This is not unheard of

http://www.eve-tribune.com/index.php?no=2_7&page=4

Yikes!

In no way am I intimating that such things are happening here in ESO.

Quite to the contrary. Those who play at a "higher level" should certainly be listened to but if you are going to balance around such input then:

A. Implement those suggestions on PTS and thoroughly test them "in-house".

and/or

B. Allow more open community feedback in regards to such suggestions.

As it stands I think that the high end players can balance this game much better than the developers. Having said that some changes which would make high level play more challenging may also negatively effect more casual players.

This is what concerns me.

benadams1864 · June 2014

SootyTX wrote: »

Absinthe wrote: »

<snip>

real tl/dr version - big wall of text saying...well, pretty much nothing at all

No constructive arguments whatsover? What class nerfs are you upset about? You complain about them listening to 'a select few', no doubt referencing the ridiculous uproar over the guilds they talk to, without any idea of how the industry operates. Here's a clue, every MMO does that, and for good reason - most players are absolutely clueless when it comes to detailed and accurate feedback. If you don't like it, don't play the genre, period.

I suppose if the 'select few' was actually a select one, i.e. you, you'd be fine? It's complete hypocrisy - you are screaming about them listening to other players but not you, as if your view is more important.

Yet you actually offer zero input. It's just another whine post. Admittedly moderately better written than most but that's all it is.

<wanders off to pre-emptively ignore the inevitable 'fanboi' comments from the sheep>

OK, let me understand you here. Because everyone else does it that means it's OK? We should like it and live with it? Accusing someone of a poor argument with the "But all my friends are doing it" response makes for a great counter point.

And if you don't like it don't play? Lets apply your logic to this idea shall we. Hmm, sounds like a fanboi to me.

kewl · June 2014

Absinthe wrote: »

Lets just hope they do not blow up the golf course while trying to kill a gopher.

+5 Bacon

zgrssd · June 2014

One step forward 3 steps back...

So right now we have 3 times as many goldspammers and bots as at launch?
3 times as many classes able to solo trial/group content?
3 times as many broken skills?
3 times as many broken questlines?

Because last time I looked we did not. And those were the steps forward they did take so far.

There will always be uninteded sideeffects from patches. What is happenng right now after 1.2.3 is nothing extraordinary for a major update. In fact it is outright mild from what I expected.

Food4Thought · June 2014

One of the reasons I am not a VR is because I new there would be issues. Far too many stress tests where all the players were locked up in the kiddie pool levels. Each weekend we barely got a chance to to reach a level where we could attempt new combat combinations and test them out.

This left feedback coming from just the full time testers who may or may not have taken to task the job put before them.

At any rate These forums are full of people complaining about issues. I can only hope that they will be addressed before I get to the point where I too will have to jump from the "lets see how it goes" ship to the "this is mucked up" ship.

ExiledKhallisi · June 2014

Funny....I think the game is great and am having a blast. I also play the weakest class in the game. Plus don't you all know... zos only cares about the nerds of two guilds and what people on reddit say...reddit because the public can see it...official forums costs a membership. Enjoy the game stop complaining about little farts and coughs.

drogon1 · June 2014

Showing "favor" to the game's experts. LOL.

Elite guilds are elite for a reason. They usually do consist of expert players who understand the game nuances better than a large majority of us. ZoS would be wise to listen to these players in their respective areas of expertise (if PvE guild, then PvE; if PvP then PvP).

Sure the elite guilds will have their biases, but they are a good starting point to determine how the game mechanics are playing out.

Ragnar_Lodbrok · June 2014

drogon1 wrote: »

Showing "favor" to the game's experts. LOL.

Elite guilds are elite for a reason. They usually do consist of expert players who understand the game nuances better than a large majority of us. ZoS would be wise to listen to these players in their respective areas of expertise (if PvE guild, then PvE; if PvP then PvP).

Sure the elite guilds will have their biases, but they are a good starting point to determine how the game mechanics are playing out.

You must be a member of one of those elite guilds ruining the game.

Lodestar · June 2014

drogon1 wrote: »

Showing "favor" to the game's experts. LOL.

Elite guilds are elite for a reason. They usually do consist of expert players who understand the game nuances better than a large majority of us.

So, you should balance a game to their standards, even when they are a minority, to put out your majority who are not that advanced? Well, you may be looking at the results of just that here in this game. And it is not pretty.

Ragnar_Lodbrok · June 2014

Lodestar wrote: »

drogon1 wrote: »

Showing "favor" to the game's experts. LOL.

Elite guilds are elite for a reason. They usually do consist of expert players who understand the game nuances better than a large majority of us.

So, you should balance a game to their standards, even when they are a minority, to put out your majority who are not that advanced? Well, you may be looking at the results of just that here in this game. And it is not pretty.

It would help explain ZoS' tone deafness to the majority and why so many have quit.

Ohioastro · June 2014

Absinthe wrote: »

Zabalah wrote: »

Absinthe wrote: »

BUT WHAT REALLY BOTHERS ME IS THAT THE DEV'S TAKE FEEDBACK FROM A SELECT FEW INDIVIDUALS INSTEAD OF TESTING/BALANCING THE GAME THEMSELVES!

Hmmm.... point me please to your factual and official declaration of this broadly knee jerk accusation that smacks of sensationalism to suit your own opinion?

I shall refer you to the guilds Alacrity and Entropy Rising.

I have nothing against either guild and I know quite a few individuals in each. When they tell me that they are switching to another voice com because a Zenimax employee is having a "meeting" with them I tend to believe them. Also, should you need more proof, there are streams in which @ZOS_JessicaFolsom has not only been directly involved but you can hear her voice.

Is that knee jerk enough for you?

If you have nothing against them you wouldn't be blaming them, would you? This is obnoxious in the extreme, and I have nothing to do with either guild. If you want your new content to be tested you need...testers. Talking to the people testing things for you is not a bad thing. Proof that they "only listen to them?" None. ER has been pretty vocal on AoE caps in PvP and a more open API (interface) and Zen doesn't seem to have listened. To reasonable people that's a clue that the game isn't being shaped by them. Conspiracy theories are lazy and impossible to falsify.

If I look over what they've done in the patches I see a lot of responsiveness to common complaints. I also see plenty of people who can't see past their pet issues and who think that they = everyone. Not so. I think Zen has done a very good job and that they've been listening to the (reasonable) voices.