Werewolf Timer Fixes (Suggestions) No Toggle!

WhitePawPrints · May 2014

I see a lot of posts asking for Toggle Werewolf form and Permanent Werewolf form, but I honestly have to disagree with this solution. While this would be great for roleplaying purpose, I think it'll cause for the Werewolf to be difficult to balance when Survivability is increased that might cause for the Werewolf form to become ultimately weaker than it should be.

My suggestions on this thread will be about the Longevity aspect of the Werewolf Transformation and why I think Toggle/Permanent Werewolf would be ultimately bad for the Werewolf Transformation.

First, increase the base timer to at the very minimal of two minutes. This would give allow Werewolves to not feel so rushed to go find the first kills. It would give a greater sense of freedom when making that first transformation.

Second, increase the Devour bonus timer to approximately 30 seconds or more. Devour currently adds only about 5 seconds to the timer, and considering how long it takes to kill an NPC, even 10-20 levels below you, the current time added only delays the transformation back to humanoid form. Devour should accumulate time so that we can stay in Werewolf Transformation form longer, not just delay.

Third, and what I believe would be the greatest fix to the Werewolf longevity issue, is to REMOVE THE TIMER CAP. When in Werewolf form, we can Devour as many bodies as we kill which in the case of a camp raid, can be quite a few. However, if devouring more bodies than after our Timer is filled, those bodies have no benefit at all to the Werewolf time. The initial thirty seconds is all we can ever have, forcing us to rush to find the next meat to slaughter and devour. This alone makes the Werewolf Transformation feel far more stressful than it should be.

With these changes, I would be able to go into a bandit camp or fort, slaughter the entire population and feast on their flesh, then have enough time to go find another large population to terrorize. While going from one fort/camp to another, I can pick off a few stragglers just to increase my timer a bit.

Now, all of these changes would make the Werewolf follow the Werewolf model in Skyrim (Dawnguard) which was a great deal of fun to play. It was also satisfying to leave the Imperial keeps a slaughter with their bodies littering the floors.

I believe this would fix the Werewolf Longevity issue, similar to how Toggle/Permanent Werewolf would. However, Werewolf has Survivability and Usefulness issues that I'd like to see addressed as well. However, this suggested solution, along with the other buffs I'd like to see implemented would make for a balanced PVP experience.

In example:

Cyrodil Scenario One: A Werewolf guild enters field, they transform into beastly monsters that cause for the front lines to flee in fear. Werewolves have been buffed with more armor, health and stamina. Pack Leaders are a true threat because they offer life leech, health regeneration or similar benefits to Beserkers. Werewolves take the field and slaughter the enemy players. Werewolves feed only maybe one body each before the enemy player clicks respawn.

Supported by non-Werewolf players, the faction moves against a Keep. Let's say the opposing faction is just plain stupid and keeps coming out to be slaughtered and not reviving so Werewolves can feast on their bodies. Werewolf pack defends ally siege equipment but after five straight minutes of stupid players feeding the Werewolves, Werewolves timer starts to run out. By the time a wall finally comes down, Werewolf Transformation is expired.

Cyrodil Scenario Two: After opposing faction successfully completes Scenario One, your faction is defending the Keep. Werewolf guild arrives on field, waits hidden behind enemy lines for opposing Werewolves to transform back. Allied Werewolf guild transforms and moves in to break the siege. Let's say for some reason now this assaulting faction had their brains fall out an ear and doesn't revive quickly to avoid being eaten in large numbers. Siege-breaking Werewolf pack now has to find another enemy group to attack before their timer runs out because scattered limited NPC's are not enough for large packs.

Okay, Sieges can easily be broken by Werewolf packs, but with high Ultimate cost, it'd be incredibly difficult to coordinate such a counterattack. Ultimate cost at its current would balance that unto itself. However, if Ultimate is lowered and these other benefits are applied, DK Shield Vampires will still be able to hold their own against packs of greater numbers with Bat Swarm and Mist Form.

In my opinion, Werewolf, with its incredibly high Ultimate cost and the limitation of a timer, should easily win open field battles. Why? Because the counter to Werewolves would be to run away from them, hide in Keeps from them, CC them, until their Timer runs out. The Timer will balance almost any buff that is given to the Werewolf, and that is why I don't think Toggle/Permanent Werewolves are a good idea because that would negate improving the Survivability and Usefulness of Werewolf Transformations.

biodragon · May 2014

Wall of text, I have not read everything carefully, but it seems that you are looking for something like a nuclear bomb, not a mixture of man and animal.

I agree with some limitation in Werewolf form, but why that have to be time?

Examples :
1. As far I know Werewolves and Vampires are unwanted creatures by alliance heads so why should they or players who help them even rewarded in Cyrodill :P ?

2. Worried about entering town in wolf form? Make guards at gate kill them.

3. Want have nuclear bomb in PvP? Use wolf ultimate independently (as human or wolf with different results).

4. Want see werewolves in groups (packs)? Add them extra buffs to skills who works only in pack (eg. more time to fear effect)

5. Pointless? No! RP players would be happy (I think), PvPers got their "I win" button. If that is not enough: make attack power or defence variable. (depending from devours/hour, wolf type and within reasonable limits)

but still you can spend all day as a wolf

(Sorry for english)

WhitePawPrints · May 2014

@‌biodragon

Of course, Fighter Guild abilities should be increased to so that they can effectively counter Vampires and Werewolf. Current abilities are laughable against Vampires.

Maybe a Meridia type of World Skill tree should be added to avoid the game of becoming Vampire vs. Werewolves. A skill tree that'll turn a player into more of a Van Helsing than a pathetic Dawnguard dude with a crossbow.

biodragon · May 2014

That would be fun (extra skill line)

but it won't happen because game is divided between PvP and PvE part so you can't avoid that completely.
To avoid Vamps vs. WW situation I think they should make so many penalties for being that creature (not directly on character, but rather world around) to force players think 5 times before they become Vampire or Werewolf.

Brittany_Joy · May 2014

I think the werewolf transformation should be a toggle ability that doesn't have a time limit on how long you can be a werewolf, basically permawolf. ESO is all about "Be who you want to be" and if I want to be a savage werewolf then ESO should let me because of their motto.

I know they are working on a justice system so why don't they allow us to be permawolfs but if we go into a town were guards are then they should come after us. It would be fun.

Also being a permawolf is alot more fun and the game should be promoting fun instead of restrictive gameplay.

WhitePawPrints · May 2014

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

I think the werewolf transformation should be a toggle ability that doesn't have a time limit on how long you can be a werewolf, basically permawolf. ESO is all about "Be who you want to be" and if I want to be a savage werewolf then ESO should let me because of their motto.

I know they are working on a justice system so why don't they allow us to be permawolfs but if we go into a town were guards are then they should come after us. It would be fun.

Also being a permawolf is alot more fun and the game should be promoting fun instead of restrictive gameplay.

I would love for a permanent werewolf because I just like being a werewolf. It's fun, and I always transform near a shrine just to hang out with other werewolves. I use the one emote we can use while in the form and play around with other players. With toggle werewolf, that freedom would be so much greater. And I'd love if they'd add some /howl /growl /rage emoticons, and any similar.

I only disagree with the toggle werewolf is because with the time limitation, then the werewolf can be made many, many, many times stronger than its current form and still not be out of balance. With the suggestions above, then I'd be able to increase my Werewolf timer enough to have fun in the form, but also have the werewolf eventually become powerful enough to use and feel powerful.

Ultimate cost, and permanent werewolf, I cannot fully support if that'll discourage future buffs. Maybe they wouldn't, can't know for sure without testing, but I think the most balanced would be a very powerful Werewolf with a high Ultimate cost, and a timer. Increased timer would allow for the fun and role play in non-PVP areas. It's the most versatile solution I can think of.

Brittany_Joy · May 2014

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

I think the werewolf transformation should be a toggle ability that doesn't have a time limit on how long you can be a werewolf, basically permawolf. ESO is all about "Be who you want to be" and if I want to be a savage werewolf then ESO should let me because of their motto.

I know they are working on a justice system so why don't they allow us to be permawolfs but if we go into a town were guards are then they should come after us. It would be fun.

Also being a permawolf is alot more fun and the game should be promoting fun instead of restrictive gameplay.

I would love for a permanent werewolf because I just like being a werewolf. It's fun, and I always transform near a shrine just to hang out with other werewolves. I use the one emote we can use while in the form and play around with other players. With toggle werewolf, that freedom would be so much greater. And I'd love if they'd add some /howl /growl /rage emoticons, and any similar.

I only disagree with the toggle werewolf is because with the time limitation, then the werewolf can be made many, many, many times stronger than its current form and still not be out of balance. With the suggestions above, then I'd be able to increase my Werewolf timer enough to have fun in the form, but also have the werewolf eventually become powerful enough to use and feel powerful.

Ultimate cost, and permanent werewolf, I cannot fully support if that'll discourage future buffs. Maybe they wouldn't, can't know for sure without testing, but I think the most balanced would be a very powerful Werewolf with a high Ultimate cost, and a timer. Increased timer would allow for the fun and role play in non-PVP areas. It's the most versatile solution I can think of.

The design of making the werewolf a very powerful and high ultimate cost is what started this whole problem. You should not spend 16 skill points into one ultimate that you can rarely use. Having a permawolf will not discourage future buffs but instead push it in the right direction. A shapeshift-at-will ability, a similar function to the feral druid or vampire lord, will allow a whole new playstyle once you pick the werewolf skill line and it supports the "Be who you want to be" motto.

A werewolf form without restrictions is more fun and encourages players who choose to be werewolves to actually be werewolves. Why should the werewolf skill line be so restrictive and penalizing. There is no reason to penalize players for wanting to be werewolves.

It would be more fun if I could run across the fields of Cyrodiil to hunt with my pack without having to worry about restrictions. My guild members enjoyed the permawolf that the devour passive had before and really disliked having it taken away. There is hardly anyone who enjoys the high ultimate cost and overall restrictions on being werewolf. Most of my guild members actually want to be werewolves! Not the current state the werewolf skill line is in which is to make you anything but a werewolf.

Oronell · May 2014

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

You should not spend 16 skill points into one ultimate that you can rarely use.

.....an ultimate that is also considerably weaker and less useful than almost every alternative.

Razum_Khar · May 2014

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Third, and what I believe would be the greatest fix to the Werewolf longevity issue, is to REMOVE THE TIMER CAP. When in Werewolf form, we can Devour as many bodies as we kill which in the case of a camp raid, can be quite a few. However, if devouring more bodies than after our Timer is filled, those bodies have no benefit at all to the Werewolf time. The initial thirty seconds is all we can ever have, forcing us to rush to find the next meat to slaughter and devour. This alone makes the Werewolf Transformation feel far more stressful than it should be.

I would love to know how you can devour as many bodies as you kill. There's an internal cooldown on devour, I can kill around 4x more than I can possibly devour. If there are two corpses side by side, and you devour, you only devour one of them. The other can be devoured after the cooldown expires.. but then you've lost so much time by then. (You don't get extra time just because there are multiple corpses lying around).

While I do totally agree that the timer cap should be removed, like Skyrim, so you can "overcharge" the timer. As it stands right now the cooldown on devour would pretty much exclude all possibility of ever overcharging the timer.

If you do manage to complete the devour animation, you do get a fair chunk of time back. But the devour cooldown means that unless your adding extra time with Feral Pounce, your on a losing battle with devour. Removing the cooldown, and possibly reducing the amount of time recovered by devour to balance it. A slightly shorter/faster animation on devour would be nice too.

It seems that as of Patch 1.0.8, during the devour animation the timer slows down considerably, although I suspect not quite to a standstill. But even if there's just a pixel left on the timer, I can usually complete a devour, so it does seem to slow the timer during the animation.

With Devour and Feral Pounce IV, its almost possible to maintain WW form, but a single mistake and your done for.

Werewolf does not feel like a "blood fury / rageing beast". It feels like a crazy race against a clock, with the player being punished for any errors in timing.

IMHO, Werewolf should get at least 2 minutes (base) in form, with devour making it much easier to fill up the timer. But sure. If the wolf stands around doing nothing, they should lose their rage and return to Humanoid form.

Perhaps the timer could be variable speed. Fastest ticking while out of combat, and slowing to almost nothing while actually in combat. Timer could also be effected by the moon phase as well.

Regarding Moon Phase. From the point of view of Roleplay, it would be great if moon phase could have influence on the Werewolves. Even including a forced shift.. BUT to counteract the negative aspects of a forced shift, perhaps Werewolves could be forced to shift during full moon nights, BUT only if they were hungry. (Add hunger phases to werewolves). If a Werewolf had devoured recently, the forced shift could be avoided. This would help avoid Werewolf players being excluded from groups due to risk of uncontrollable shifting. But for a starved werewolf, a forced shift lasting an entire night cycle could be a blast to play.

Overall, as Werewolf stands, the negative aspects of survivability, are really rather harsh considering how little Werewolf adds in terms of damage. And that's not factoring in being 1 shot in PVP by anyone with the appropriate fighters guild passives. The whole Werewolf line really needs to be properly balanced, with much better "up time", and less downsides. I'd rather have a marginally useful werewolf for 10 minutes, than an overpowered werewolf for 40 seconds... Right now we have a fairly useless werewolf for 40 seconds.

WhitePawPrints · May 2014

Razum_Khar wrote: »

Werewolf does not feel like a "blood fury / rageing beast". It feels like a crazy race against a clock, with the player being punished for any errors in timing.

I completely, 100% agree with this statement.

@Razum_Khar

You are right, my statement about Devouring as much as you kill is inaccurate. I suppose I meant it more as in-theory rather than current actual situation.

I do agree that removing the timer cap would be rather pointless with the current time that Devour adds. As you stated, the animation takes up most of the time which is why I agree that the time that Devours adds should be increased in addition to the timer cap removal, and the base time increase. I'd hope all three of my original suggestions would be implemented otherwise because leaving any of the three out would be kind of redundant.

For forced transformations on Moon Cycles, I had posted my thoughts on that in another thread about that scenario. I don't think it's a good idea considering the problems it could cause when a player is questing, but the opt-out solution you offered, I can't come up with a reason to disagree. I think your idea of Forced Transformation would work out just fine. That would add a bit of a roleplay factor for Werewolves and I'd find that fun; it is a curse or blessing by a Deadric Prince so it should have some sort of consequence. Some sort of similar function should be added for the Vampires too, being it's a curse or blessing from Molag Bal.

I would never choose a super powerful werewolf for a short amount of time over a useful werewolf for a moderate length of time. You summarized it perfectly in saying that right now we have a useless werewolf for a short amount of time. My Cyrodil scenarios were just that: a way to make a useful werewolf for a moderate length of time. Not necessarily overpowered, because the existence of a timer, and the high ultimate cost would balance it out.

My Cyrodil scenarios weren't intended to sound as if I supported a super powerful, but super short length, werewolf transformation. Why werewolves should win the field is because there should be pack passives that will make them stronger, and quite possibly overpowered in open fields; because the logistics of coordinating that attack would be incredibly difficult considering the Ultimate cost. Vampires with Bat Swarm could easily survive against that attack anyway.

All in all, I completely agree with your post.

Brittany_Joy · May 2014

@Razum_Khar, Forced werewolf transformations at night were removed in Skyrim because it was inconvenient for the player. So was the vampire's health depleting in sunlight. They changed the werewolf transformation to a power spell in Skyrim because at the time they must have thought it was more convenient for the player to choose when he/she will transform into a werewolf. In Dawnguard DLC they thought of a new mechanic shown with the Vampire Lord transformation which was a toggle ability. The player had the choice to choose when they could transform into a vampire lord and had an unrestricted amount of time in that form.

Bethesda Game Studios thought of excellent convenience changes to the transformation mechanic that was actually fun and didn't restrict the player. So why can't Zenimax Online Studios do the same? The werewolf transformation should be a toggle ability so you can choose when to transform and stay in form as long as you want because ESO is supposed to be all about "Be who you want to be" instead of restricting your preferred play style.

WhitePawPrints · May 2014

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Bethesda Game Studios thought of excellent convenience changes to the transformation mechanic that was actually fun and didn't restrict the player. So why can't Zenimax Online Studios do the same? The werewolf transformation should be a toggle ability so you can choose when to transform and stay in form as long as you want because ESO is supposed to be all about "Be who you want to be" instead of restricting your preferred play style.

I've been avoiding addressing this for the sake of keeping the forums on topic but there are issues with this.

"Be who you want to be" statement from Zenimax in their promotion of Elder Scrolls Online was not intended in the way some have interpreted it. The motto was referring to the lack of restrictions on race-specific classes and weapon-specific classes, that are often present in most other MMO's. No matter the race, you can be any class. No matter the class, you can use any weapon and armor type. The way you say it sounds like you're interpreting it as if they meant for this game to be Spore, be who you want to be. If they truly meant "Be who you want to be" in the way you're interpreting it, then I want to play as a Lilmothiit. There are posts requesting for Maomer and Golbins to be playable races too.

Why can't Zenimax do the same as Bethesda with the Werewolf? You're not suggesting they do the same, your suggesting something completely different. Skyrim Werewolf was timed like ESO Werewolf, but had much greater longevity which is why I am suggesting for Zenimax to actually follow Bethesda's model when it comes to the timer.

Permanent wolf would cause balance concerns. If Permanent werewolf was added and left Werewolf as is, then Werewolf still have the survivability issues.
With the buff suggestions that'd actually make Werewolf packs a useful force in Cyrodil, then Permanent werewolf would make them overpowered. Any weaker, then there are very few scenarios where a werewolf guild would actually be useful in Cyrodil, Permanent or not.

As Razum_Khar said, right now we have a fairly useless werewolf that only last for a short amount of time. I'd rather have a useful werewolf with a limited timer, rather than a still mostly useless permanent werewolf.

Why should I support permanent werewolf over the suggested improved werewolf timer?

Brittany_Joy · May 2014

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Bethesda Game Studios thought of excellent convenience changes to the transformation mechanic that was actually fun and didn't restrict the player. So why can't Zenimax Online Studios do the same? The werewolf transformation should be a toggle ability so you can choose when to transform and stay in form as long as you want because ESO is supposed to be all about "Be who you want to be" instead of restricting your preferred play style.

I've been avoiding addressing this for the sake of keeping the forums on topic but there are issues with this.

"Be who you want to be" statement from Zenimax in their promotion of Elder Scrolls Online was not intended in the way some have interpreted it. The motto was referring to the lack of restrictions on race-specific classes and weapon-specific classes, that are often present in most other MMO's. No matter the race, you can be any class. No matter the class, you can use any weapon and armor type. The way you say it sounds like you're interpreting it as if they meant for this game to be Spore, be who you want to be. If they truly meant "Be who you want to be" in the way you're interpreting it, then I want to play as a Lilmothiit. There are posts requesting for Maomer and Golbins to be playable races too.

Why can't Zenimax do the same as Bethesda with the Werewolf? You're not suggesting they do the same, your suggesting something completely different. Skyrim Werewolf was timed like ESO Werewolf, but had much greater longevity which is why I am suggesting for Zenimax to actually follow Bethesda's model when it comes to the timer.

Permanent wolf would cause balance concerns. If Permanent werewolf was added and left Werewolf as is, then Werewolf still have the survivability issues.
With the buff suggestions that'd actually make Werewolf packs a useful force in Cyrodil, then Permanent werewolf would make them overpowered. Any weaker, then there are very few scenarios where a werewolf guild would actually be useful in Cyrodil, Permanent or not.

As Razum_Khar said, right now we have a fairly useless werewolf that only last for a short amount of time. I'd rather have a useful werewolf with a limited timer, rather than a still mostly useless permanent werewolf.

Why should I support permanent werewolf over the suggested improved werewolf timer?

Really, why shouldn't werewolves be a toggle? look at feral druids and the vampire lord mechanic were they can shapeshift at will and stay in form for an unrestricted amount of time. Just because it is permawolf doesn't mean keep it the same underpowered werewolf. Having a toggled werewolf transformation is more convenient and fun to play.

Bethesda Game Studios did think of a toggled transformation with the vampire lord and it worked very well and it didn't restrict or penalize the player, also another reason why they win awards. Why should the werewolf transformation be so restrictive? I think it shouldn't because it really is against the motto "Be who you want to be". I know you say it is a misconception on my part but really it isn't a misconception. Elder Scrolls has always been about Vampires and werewolves because they involve the Daedric Princes which are active amongst the world of Nirn. Games are about having fun and not penalizing and restricting the player.

It doesn't make sense that as someone who embraced Hircine's gift that I do not have the option to control it or have Hircine's blessing to remain in werewolf form as long as I want. Hircine blesses those who embrace the gift and curses those who refuse it.

Oronell · May 2014

"WhitePawPrints wrote: »

As Razum_Khar said, right now we have a fairly useless werewolf that only last for a short amount of time. I'd rather have a useful werewolf with a limited timer, rather than a still mostly useless permanent werewolf.

Why should I support permanent werewolf over the suggested improved werewolf timer?

I'm sure (hoping) there is some middle ground they are considering. Just takes a bit of creativity which I'm absolutely sure the Devs have in excess.

WhitePawPrints · May 2014

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Brittany_Joy wrote: »

Bethesda Game Studios thought of excellent convenience changes to the transformation mechanic that was actually fun and didn't restrict the player. So why can't Zenimax Online Studios do the same? The werewolf transformation should be a toggle ability so you can choose when to transform and stay in form as long as you want because ESO is supposed to be all about "Be who you want to be" instead of restricting your preferred play style.

I've been avoiding addressing this for the sake of keeping the forums on topic but there are issues with this.

"Be who you want to be" statement from Zenimax in their promotion of Elder Scrolls Online was not intended in the way some have interpreted it. The motto was referring to the lack of restrictions on race-specific classes and weapon-specific classes, that are often present in most other MMO's. No matter the race, you can be any class. No matter the class, you can use any weapon and armor type. The way you say it sounds like you're interpreting it as if they meant for this game to be Spore, be who you want to be. If they truly meant "Be who you want to be" in the way you're interpreting it, then I want to play as a Lilmothiit. There are posts requesting for Maomer and Golbins to be playable races too.

Why can't Zenimax do the same as Bethesda with the Werewolf? You're not suggesting they do the same, your suggesting something completely different. Skyrim Werewolf was timed like ESO Werewolf, but had much greater longevity which is why I am suggesting for Zenimax to actually follow Bethesda's model when it comes to the timer.

Permanent wolf would cause balance concerns. If Permanent werewolf was added and left Werewolf as is, then Werewolf still have the survivability issues.
With the buff suggestions that'd actually make Werewolf packs a useful force in Cyrodil, then Permanent werewolf would make them overpowered. Any weaker, then there are very few scenarios where a werewolf guild would actually be useful in Cyrodil, Permanent or not.

As Razum_Khar said, right now we have a fairly useless werewolf that only last for a short amount of time. I'd rather have a useful werewolf with a limited timer, rather than a still mostly useless permanent werewolf.

Why should I support permanent werewolf over the suggested improved werewolf timer?

Really, why shouldn't werewolves be a toggle? look at feral druids and the vampire lord mechanic were they can shapeshift at will and stay in form for an unrestricted amount of time. Just because it is permawolf doesn't mean keep it the same underpowered werewolf. Having a toggled werewolf transformation is more convenient and fun to play.

Bethesda Game Studios did think of a toggled transformation with the vampire lord and it worked very well and it didn't restrict or penalize the player, also another reason why they win awards. Why should the werewolf transformation be so restrictive? I think it shouldn't because it really is against the motto "Be who you want to be". I know you say it is a misconception on my part but really it isn't a misconception. Elder Scrolls has always been about Vampires and werewolves because they involve the Daedric Princes which are active amongst the world of Nirn. Games are about having fun and not penalizing and restricting the player.

It doesn't make sense that as someone who embraced Hircine's gift that I do not have the option to control it or have Hircine's blessing to remain in werewolf form as long as I want. Hircine blesses those who embrace the gift and curses those who refuse it.

The timer suggestions would relieve the restrictions. Skyrim didn't feel restricting, or inconvenient but it still had a timer on it. Permanent Werewolf would be fun because I do like to roleplay, but part of that roleplay was fun because you had to fuel the rage (in sorts) to maintain the transformation.

Actually, you gave me an idea. If they ever add third morphs, add a Transformation Wolf morph that would be toggle-able. Maybe that'd be the benefit rather than the Beserker benefits or Pack Leader Benefits (but I still think Pack Leader needs serious buffs). That really doesn't bring up the balance concerns I had earlier so that'd probably work.

With it being a morph option, I think toggle werewolf wouldn't be a bad idea.

WhitePawPrints · May 2014

Toggle would work if it was a Morph choice, for an admittedly weaker (or non-buffed) form because I'm still hoping for great buffs to the werewolf to come. Even if giving Pack Leader the bonus of having the Toggle would be nice considering Pack Leader bonuses are rather useless currently.

I won't compromise getting some great buffs for a permanent werewolf. Admittedly, I do hang out at Hircine's Shrine as Werewolf because it's fun to play with other Werewolves around there. Toggle should be a choice though, I don't agree with forcing it on those who loved the powerful Skyrim werewolf and would like to see an improved version of that for ESO.

Syrrisdevlin · May 2014

I'm not sure if this has all been said or not I know most of it has been said in many other posts and I am actually repeating my self here as I said this on another post but here is my 2cents on WW. I fully agree WW should be a toggle ability but I feel it should have sharp incentives to keep peeps from running around in ww form 24/7 perhaps adjusting it so poison dmg is increased to 100% while in ww form vs 50% while in human form. maybe lowing your health regen by 50% while in ww form keep ww form as a ultimate that's toggle

maybe add another ability that's melee based. Like a swip or something that does dmg to mult targets in your frontal arc with the morph abilities 1 adding a knock back to the targets and the other morph maybe increasing dmg done to closest target like the Templar spear ability

devourer should be changed from increasing ww time to restoring health along with any other abilities that currently add to ww time to reducing the penalties for being in ww form like the vampire abilities do for being in stage 4 hunger,

feral pounce is just plain out crap as is I lvl pounce thinking feral pounce would be good for adding time tell I got there and read it only adds 1 sec of ww time if nothing els it needs to be changed from 1 sec of added ww time to 5-10secs because as is most the time it takes longer to pounce then the amount of time you gain from doing so. but to go along with the changes make feral pounce add a bleed effect to said target that heals the ww so much over time

bloodrage should be changed to add stamina regen in ww form

savage streangth should add power to your attacks per kill for 5-10secs stacking up to 5 times

call of the pack could be changed to add health regen to other ww while in ww form

ScardyFox · May 2014

A toggle please...

Brasseurfb16_ESO · June 2014

I have an idea on my own,

I think it is possible to improve the Werewolf form without hurting its base concept. If we could still use our Class skill during the transformation this one could be a lot more effective.

The transformation would still replace our 2 first skills, of course, but it would now also retain the 3 others we sloted in our action set making the form overall more versatile and making it a 30sec buff increasing our overall Dps without loosing our surviability.

And their should be no RP issues around this concept sinds the Werewolves boss fight in the Crucible are using class based abilities while transformed.

What do you people think?

demonlkojipub19_ESO · June 2014

As long as WW transform is a super expensive ultimate with a timer, it will suck.

WhitePawPrints · June 2014

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I have an idea on my own,

I think it is possible to improve the Werewolf form without hurting its base concept. If we could still use our Class skill during the transformation this one could be a lot more effective.

The transformation would still replace our 2 first skills, of course, but it would now also retain the 3 others we sloted in our action set making the form overall more versatile and making it a 30sec buff increasing our overall Dps without loosing our surviability.

And their should be no RP issues around this concept sinds the Werewolves boss fight in the Crucible are using class based abilities while transformed.

What do you people think?

I would hope that more abilities will be added to the Werewolf later on so that only have two skill choices wouldn't be such an issue. It'd be a bit strange to see a Werewolf using a spear, or similar abilities but there are other abilities that would have great potential. Maybe Zenimax should look at the Class skill abilities and tweak them a bit for options on future Werewolf skill abilities.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

As long as WW transform is a super expensive ultimate with a timer, it will suck.

So when Bethesda released Skyrim and saw that the werewolf was lacking, the significant buffs that made it an incredibly fun part of the game still made it suck? It still had high restriction on transformation and still had a timer.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · June 2014

Why should they bother copying skyrim WW? they didn't copy Skyrim vampire. Skyrim WW sucked too. did not bother.

WhitePawPrints · June 2014

@Oronell The middle ground:

Reading and discussing the "toggle" suggestions on these forums, I have found some alternatives that would make toggle possible with minimal or no impact on balance.

My objections to the toggle is because it has been my understanding that the suggested toggle model would be an across-the-board change to all werewolves. And in my opinion, it is a rather short-sighted change due to the fact that any additional ability added, or class change, would have a far greater impact on balancing than if a timer of any type exists. (An issue if a simple permanent werewolf was applied to current model would be the fact that werewolves can often be faster than horses, and with roar, they can easily escape a battle in very similar ways that Bolt Escape allows Sorc classes to escape. There is significant controversy over that ability already.)

However, I could never fully oppose toggle because I personally would enjoy it for roleplay purposes. I enjoy hanging out around Hircine's Shrine and to meet other werewolves. Hence, my first solution that would have toggle be a possibility: To create a small zone with the same affects as the Shrine would be one way to allow for those who want to play as werewolves, to stay in werewolf form. Hircine would open a portion of his Hunting Grounds as a Werewolf Sanctuary. This small zone would consist of a small settlement of Werewolf settlers, and plenty of NPC's for Werewolves to hunt (like Orcs) around it; with lots of possibilities of daily quests.

The second suggestion would be included in what would most likely be an expansion. The inclusion of a second tier of morph abilities. Specific to Werewolf Transformation, a second tier morph choice for either Beserker or Pack Leader (most likely Beserker) would be for a toggle morph (Werewolf Rampancy or named something similar) that would remove the Timer from the Werewolf transformation. This would be a tradeoff of (possibly) buffed Pack Leader and the other second tier morphs that will make the Werewolf stronger.

The first choice would be part of a larger content patch, if not an expansion but it has zero impact on balance. It would also be a great deal of fun in my opinion as I can see Werewolf guilds hanging out there. Maybe even some Werewolf specific set crafting tables can be implemented as well. The second choice would still be a balance concern.

indigoblades · June 2014

i think those are good ideas ... but i am one to think world skills should be a bit OP ... my wish's were all ways was that there where 3 and picking one was a requirement if u wanted to maximize ur toon ... vamps ww and some third less supernatural one ( like dawngaurd was in skyrim) .... but thats too threaten to all the people who want every one running around exactly even all pretty much the same in light armor and a staff ... after all the nerfs finished thats what ESO is gonna be ...

instead of nerfing Vamps, sorc and DK's what if they boosted templ and nightblades and WW............ then added a third skill line for those who hate undead/super-natuaral.

WhitePawPrints · June 2014

cwbriggs6ub17_ESO wrote: »

i think those are good ideas ... but i am one to think world skills should be a bit OP ... my wish's were all ways was that there where 3 and picking one was a requirement if u wanted to maximize ur toon ... vamps ww and some third less supernatural one ( like dawngaurd was in skyrim) .... but thats too threaten to all the people who want every one running around exactly even all pretty much the same in light armor and a staff ... after all the nerfs finished thats what ESO is gonna be ...

instead of nerfing Vamps, sorc and DK's what if they boosted templ and nightblades and WW............ then added a third skill line for those who hate undead/super-natuaral.

Unfortunately it seems that those are the people Zenimax are listening to: the MMO players who play a build only because it's the best. Vampire was fixed, but there have been no real changes on the DK and Sorc that have not affected Nightblade and Templar equally as much.

Agreed that there should be a third skill line to be on the level of the Vigilant of Stendarr to balance the World Skills but currently I don't have any faith in Zenimax as their balance concept seems to only come from communicating with huge guilds full of MMO players that could care less about the game itself, and only about the mechanics of how they can be better.

Brittany_Joy · June 2014

@Whitepawprints, it is sad really that ZoS is listening to those type of guilds. ZoS seems to have an old fashion view on how to balance games. By old fashion I mean sticking to Hard Counters (AKA Overpowered) and punishing gameplay. They should offer gameplay mechanics that reward skillful use of utility and damage and not PEWPEW I PRESSED MY WIN BUTTON FIRST!

demonlkojipub19_ESO · June 2014

Besides the toggle there was another Idea to treat werewolf transformation like sorcs overcharge ultimate, which would also be a better choice than a timer. Reduce the ultimate required to transform to like 100 and make it take a certain amount of ultimate per attack landed. Devour restores adds ultimate points instead of increases time.

Clutch · July 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

As long as WW transform is a super expensive ultimate with a timer, it will suck.

Being a were, I believe this would kill the appeal if we could transform on a whim whenever. I don't mind building up the points to trigger it, what annoys me is how short the duration is and how buggy devour can be. If they can lower the cost by half and lengthen the duration - I'd be fine with that.

WhitePawPrints · October 2014

An old thread of mine, granted, but seeing the notes and updates for patch 1.5, I think this thread is certainly relevant still. 1.5 is failing to address any of the longevity issues with the werewolf, other than the Devour cooldowns that were discovered about the time I made this thread. I'm still baffled on why Devour would have a cooldown in the first place.

Regardless of the 1.5 changes, the werewolf will still feel like a stressful race against the clock. Devour does not feel like it'll be adding time, but simply delaying the transformation back by a mere few seconds (almost as long as the animation). Werewolf still will not be fun.

Granted, I am glad they finally changed the sprint animation for the werewolves. The changes in 1.5 are a step in the right direction, but is no where close to being enough.

reaper85b16_ESO · October 2014

I really wonder, if WW will ever become useful. As it is now, you can at least clean a cave without transforming back, but it is, just as it was stated in this thread multiple times, a race against the clock, and that is rather annoying.
I would like to see a toggle, but I can also live with a timer, IF, and that one is a really big IF, the timer gave me enough time to have some fun as a WW, instead of being in a constant hurry.
I'm very curious to see, where the WW is going and I hope that somehow it will become useful and fun to play.

Update 1.5 is a beginning at least.

WhitePawPrints · March 2015

Werewolves finally seem to have been upgraded to be decent with 1.6. Still... the time feels like you're so rushed which ruins most of the fun about the werewolf transformation. At least the viability that I've addressed in other threads have improved, now there is only one thing left to improve with the Werewolf.