Add-on situation

daemonios · June 2014

There's been a lot of brouhaha in the add-on forum (see here for example) about the consequences of the 1.2.3 patch, but I think the issue is serious enough that it should be brought up here in general discussion.

It's my opinion that the ESO UI is seriously flawed. Yes, you can play without add-ons, and I tried it myself for the first 2 months, but at a point you're going to want to use the guild stores and notice they're useless, or manage your research traits and have to manually take note of the traits you've researched and compare your loot with this table, one by one, so you won't sell or deconstruct a trait you'll need.

Regardless of my opinion on the UI's shortcomings, ZOS has *chosen* to support add-ons and get the community involved. As a consequence, hundreds of people are devoting their time and resources to develop those add-ons.

I fear that ZOS' unannounced API changes, which broke many (most?) add-ons, are an indication that they couldn't care less about the community. It wouldn't have been much trouble to disclose these changes with some time for add-on developers to adapt, yet they *chose* not to do it.

I also fear that if this state of affairs continues, add-on developers will abandon ESO, which may drive players away too.

I would really like to see a ZOS representative comment on this latest patch and its effect on add-ons, and whether they believe that was the right call, as well as whether they're considering any policy changes.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

They do need to comment on changes better.
The changes to API were to reduce hacks and security vulnerabilities, especially against programs which can exploit far quicker than a human can react.

But they do need to document them for addons, not that I use any.

Phinix1 · June 2014

I think part of the problem is the "education for profit" system. Hear me out before you assume this is just a political rant.

Just look at Skyrim's Creation Kit. Bethesda has an incredibly detailed Wiki "manual" that documents the ins and outs of the entire language, all the events and functions and syntax all at the mod author's finger tips (lol when the site isn't down like now! XD ).

That is because it is a proprietary language with no capital at stake. It is something Bethesda choose to develop and make available to the community free of charge, and modding for that game is MUCH easier and more user friendly because of it.

Now, take a look at LUA, a private, for-profit language requiring a license to use. Because it has become something of an industry standard, there is MONEY at stake here. There are classes taught on this (or which cover it in detail) and books sold that teach what the Skyrim language wiki gives you for free. Because everyone is so busy trying to make a buck on knowledge, there is sparse and largely inadequate documentation on LUA, which makes addon development MUCH harder (you have to pour over hundreds of forum posts and questionable internet sites, many of them dated, just to get SOME viable information).

I think ZOS has taken a "hands-off" approach to documenting their interface due to the licensing issues with LUA and therefor are not inclined to make detailed posts on interface API changes either.

I could be way off here but it makes a lot of sense, to me at least, because that has been my experience with how things work.

The mod and addon authors do deserve a lot more credit than they are generally given for the immense value they add to all these various IP's, both in replay value and overall playability. That is why I encourage the community to show them respect and gratitude as often and in as many ways as possible.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I think part of the problem is the "education for profit" system. Hear me out before you assume this is just a political rant.

I did, it is, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Your tin-foil hat theory about LUA, its license and the effects on ZOS' ability to document is truly laughable ... and entirely WRONG.

You say: "Now, take a look at LUA, a private, for-profit language requiring a license to use"

LUA says: "Lua is free open-source software, distributed under a very liberal license (the well-known MIT license). It may be used for any purpose, including commercial purposes, at absolutely no cost. Just download it and use it. "

http://www.lua.org/about.html

/facepalm

The difference is probable due to ZOS not being Bethesda, simple as that.

daemonios · June 2014

The proprietary or open-source nature of LUA is irrelevant, I think. This is about communication and collaboration between ZOS and add-on developers. If ZOS can't disclose their API changes due to legal issues (which I find very hard to believe), then they should take a step back and start working on a functional core UI.

Guild stores are useless without add-ons. 100 researchable traits per crafting skill are unmanageable without add-ons. Note that when I say useless and unmanageable, I'm not saying you simply can't do it. I'm saying you'll no longer be playing the game, but fighting against a poor UI for hours, with some gameplay in-between.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

daemonios wrote: »

The proprietary or open-source nature of LUA is irrelevant, I think. This is about communication and collaboration between ZOS and add-on developers. If ZOS can't disclose their API changes due to legal issues (which I find very hard to believe), then they should take a step back and start working on a functional core UI.

Guild stores are useless without add-ons. 100 researchable traits per crafting skill are unmanageable without add-ons. Note that when I say useless and unmanageable, I'm not saying you simply can't do it. I'm saying you'll no longer be playing the game, but fighting against a poor UI for hours, with some gameplay in-between.

You can manage the traits without addons, it just takes tables and a pen, and tick them off as each character learns them, takes seconds.

But having addons makes sense, especially for those using guild stores.

twev · June 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

The proprietary or open-source nature of LUA is irrelevant, I think. This is about communication and collaboration between ZOS and add-on developers. If ZOS can't disclose their API changes due to legal issues (which I find very hard to believe), then they should take a step back and start working on a functional core UI.

Guild stores are useless without add-ons. 100 researchable traits per crafting skill are unmanageable without add-ons. Note that when I say useless and unmanageable, I'm not saying you simply can't do it. I'm saying you'll no longer be playing the game, but fighting against a poor UI for hours, with some gameplay in-between.

You can manage the traits without addons, it just takes tables and a pen, and tick them off as each character learns them, takes seconds.

But having addons makes sense, especially for those using guild stores.

Humans are capable of all sorts of wondorous things, and some otherwise capable people are completely inept at balancing a checkbook in real life.
Or they just can't be arsed to. I did enough pencil/paper work IRL for a paycheck that when I'm playing a game - it better not ask me to do more.

otoh, there's a segment of the gaming population here, and I'm not going to even try to document the numbers, who play this game because add-ons make it more fun, more immersive, less tedious, or even less confusing.
I'll bet you a bucket of skill-points that some people unsubbed after the first month specifiacally because they didn't know about add-ons.

Add-ons in some cases can be the deciding factor in whether a segment of players stays involved or unsubs. I like the game, add-ons or not, but I don't enjoy playing it without some add-ons that are important to me, and I know others feel the same way. I talk to them. Some left when particualr add-ons were no longer supported and had no substitute when the add-on dev quit the game and the add-on fell behind the update curve.

I know several people who quit when a combination of add-ons stopped working.

I know it sounds trivial to some of you, especially the 'L2P' types, but when paying customers are walking away from a purchased investment because the game isn't fun in minimalistic UI mode, maybe it's a viable viewpoint to consider add-ons to be less frivolous and more useful in that minimal UI enviornment.

The game survives on subscriptions. Is it really wise to tell subscribers to just go take a hike?

Edit: Punctuation.

daemonios · June 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

The proprietary or open-source nature of LUA is irrelevant, I think. This is about communication and collaboration between ZOS and add-on developers. If ZOS can't disclose their API changes due to legal issues (which I find very hard to believe), then they should take a step back and start working on a functional core UI.

Guild stores are useless without add-ons. 100 researchable traits per crafting skill are unmanageable without add-ons. Note that when I say useless and unmanageable, I'm not saying you simply can't do it. I'm saying you'll no longer be playing the game, but fighting against a poor UI for hours, with some gameplay in-between.

You can manage the traits without addons, it just takes tables and a pen, and tick them off as each character learns them, takes seconds.

But having addons makes sense, especially for those using guild stores.

That's just part of it. The other part is sorting your loot and discarding traits you already have/keeping those you don't. You have to compare each drop, one by one, with your hand-made table. Try doing that for clothing, where besides the trait you have to tell apart light from medium pieces. Try doing it with a full inventory after a couple of hours questing. That's what I was doing, and I was wasting hours of game time that way. It's the reason I first installed an add-on, even though I really didn't want to.

Ojustaboo · June 2014

As I have said in a few other threads, the new Addon TOS we al had to agree to, in my opinion is implying that Zenimax don't really support addons.

I happily use them but I know many people are apprehensive.

Many people feel they are not part of the intended game and when others have told them that Zenimax fully supports the use of addons etc, and then Zenimax put out the new TOS they put out yesterday, it sort of looks like they don't support them at all and I fear that could do real harm.

To quote a bit of it (Caps is theirs, the bold bits I've made bold)

ZOS is not responsible for any Add-ons, or the Game if You download and/or use an Add-on; YOU USE THESE AT YOUR OWN RISK;

ZOS will not provide customer support on any Add-ons or Your Game product if You download and/or use an Add-on. Disable all Add-ons prior to contacting Customer Service;

Your Game may not function properly as a result of downloading and/or using Add-ons.

Any Add-ons and/or files that appear to be Add-ons that You download could contain malicious code that could affect Your system. ZOS is not responsible for any such malicious code or the performance of Your system as a result of such malicious code;

I know Zenimax are trying to cover themselves, but what that will read like to most people is that even if you download an addon and don't actually use it, Zenimax will not offer you any support for your game.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

daemonios wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

The proprietary or open-source nature of LUA is irrelevant, I think. This is about communication and collaboration between ZOS and add-on developers. If ZOS can't disclose their API changes due to legal issues (which I find very hard to believe), then they should take a step back and start working on a functional core UI.

Guild stores are useless without add-ons. 100 researchable traits per crafting skill are unmanageable without add-ons. Note that when I say useless and unmanageable, I'm not saying you simply can't do it. I'm saying you'll no longer be playing the game, but fighting against a poor UI for hours, with some gameplay in-between.

You can manage the traits without addons, it just takes tables and a pen, and tick them off as each character learns them, takes seconds.

But having addons makes sense, especially for those using guild stores.

That's just part of it. The other part is sorting your loot and discarding traits you already have/keeping those you don't. You have to compare each drop, one by one, with your hand-made table. Try doing that for clothing, where besides the trait you have to tell apart light from medium pieces. Try doing it with a full inventory after a couple of hours questing. That's what I was doing, and I was wasting hours of game time that way. It's the reason I first installed an add-on, even though I really didn't want to.

I am doing that, and ok it takes several minutes, it's part of the fun for me, but as I said Addons do make sense, and I would never criticise anyone for using them. (ok, maybe a little bit when I'm in a bad mood, but not normally).

subecsanur · June 2014

This is sad reality, it works both ways actually.

ESO in the beginning maybe due to its somewhat urgent release of a game that was somewhat un-finished encouraged Add on makers and users to fill the gap of their own short comings, even devs or gm's when you report bugs or request for improvement would point you in that direction.
They must of thought that they could get away from accomodating with good content, now with less ppl playing less ppl using addons, then add ons not updating or working anymore less ppl play. It is like a vicous circle, like a sinking ship, how many add ons now are being updated anymore?

This was one game that I saw leaving so much to allow add ons to make the game better instead of them (Zenimax) just taking the reins to produce something really polished on their own.

ynotndalton · June 2014

I think they should just revamp the ui and add all the essential quality of life components that are necessary so we won't need addons for those... minimaps... loot filtering... gridded inventory... borders to tell rarity...research assistant.. too many to count... i understand going for immersion but you can always make these things options in the menu..

subecsanur · June 2014

Would be easier to go for immersion by allowing those who want it to just un-click it. This was just pure lack of finish effort.

Dedder · June 2014

ZOS failed to alert the add-on community about changes to the API before the recent patch and introduced a bug into the Add-on SavedVariables locations resulting in the loss of saved add-on settings and saved map markers.

What's up with that?

As far as I can see, this is just plain thoughtlessness for the add-on wizards who work hard to help the community and the players like me who use their wonderful products to increase our enjoyment of the game.

I really hope ZOS changes their attitude and learns to respect players and others who care sincerely about the game. Personally, I love this game and hope to be playing it heartily for a long time, but at this point I'm worried.

Lord Dedder

SFBryan18 · June 2014

As long as Skyshards and Lorebooks work, I'm good. Patches always break mods and add ons. It's up to the author to update their creation.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

I think they're well outside their rights to claim they won't support you merely if you've downloaded something.

niocwy · June 2014

SFBryan18 wrote: »

Patches always break mods and add ons. It's up to the author to update their creation.

I agree, but I think they should at least release some sort of documentation on the API changes.
They made it clear that they are counting on addons for UI improvements (I would quote it, but I don't remember where it was said). I guess it was just words.

That being said, the addon I made is doing just fine with the changes. Although the bug with the user settings is really annoying.

zgrssd · June 2014

daemonios wrote: »

There's been a lot of brouhaha in the add-on forum (see here for example) about the consequences of the 1.2.3 patch, but I think the issue is serious enough that it should be brought up here in general discussion.

It was just a mistake. Despite all my programming skill I cannot exclude I would not have made the same mistakes or a similary hard one, being in thier situation.

They do not need to explain. They do not need to applogize. They are simply fallible humans like I am. Stuff like this just happens with big updates in something as complex as a MMO. In a week when it is all fixed nobody will give a skeevers behind about this.
Everyone who claims he would never have made such a mistake, obviously does not get the scale of work behind a MMO.

To cite a programming friend of mine:
"Experience is the best thing to get. Unfortunately you only get it after you needed it."

P.S. This is also not nearly as bad as the whole "Eve online boot.ini fasko". That one made your Windows unable to start. At all.

D2player87 · June 2014

What broken add ons are you all talking about. I updated mine and all are working fine.

daemonios · June 2014

D2player87 wrote: »

What broken add ons are you all talking about. I updated mine and all are working fine.

I'm happy for that. Most of my add-ons are back to working fully, although I lost saved variables (even though I edited the .lua files following instructions in another thread).

This was not the main point. The main point was that people pointed out another example of ZOS' lack of communication with the community, namely the add-on dev community. And the authors of some of the most-used add-ons expressed concern about the way the issue was handled.

As I said before, I would find it very hard to play this game without add-ons. If ZOS won't recognize that their UI is poor, and that third parties giving away their time to address some of the shortcomings is in the company's interest, then I fear some add-on developers may abandon the game and take some players (myself included) with them.

zgrssd · June 2014

D2player87 wrote: »

What broken add ons are you all talking about. I updated mine and all are working fine.

As was totally epexted by everyone some addons broke on the Update. Most have been fixed.

There is however a bug in the saved var system that reset all the settings and stored data (it's on the known issues list; could be avoided if you made backups or knew of it in advance).
An unfortunate but understandable mistake from fellow, fallible, human programmers.

Dedder · June 2014

zgrssd wrote: »

D2player87 wrote: »

What broken add ons are you all talking about. I updated mine and all are working fine.

As was totally epexted by everyone some addons broke on the Update. Most have been fixed.

There is however a bug in the saved var system that reset all the settings and stored data (it's on the known issues list; could be avoided if you made backups or knew of it in advance).
An unfortunate but understandable mistake from fellow, fallible, human programmers.

Of course programmers make mistakes. However, as anyone who has programmed seriously knows, there are processes in place to ensure that those mistakes are caught before they reach the customer: configuration management, bug tracking, independent testing, etc. I would hope that game developers follow these well known processes to ensure the quality of their software; if not well... this is what happens. Its a process failure for a mistake like this to make it into the patch -- this bug causes almost all add-ons to lose their history (if they work); many players have lost hundreds of hours of their node gathering history on one add-on alone (Harvestmap). It's pretty clear that there was little, if any, testing of add-ons even though they changed the API that add-ons use. I can only conclude that ZOS is seriously lacking in their verification and testing process or (more likely) management made a conscious decision to push those changes out the door before their testing and verification processes could be completed. I'm hoping they fix this issue before it ruins the wonderful product they have started here.

Lord Dedder

nerevarine1138 · June 2014

If you're aware that most API changes are going to be for security reasons, then you should also be aware that they shouldn't be releasing information about security-related changes. It completely defeats the purpose of security.

And, as always:

1. Add-ons are not required to play the game. I don't care how much you want the interface to look like it does in other MMOs. They aren't required. Period.
2. Add-on programmers are the only parties responsible for the functionality of their programs. They are aware of this.
3. Add-ons are not required to play the game.

someuser · June 2014

First off, kudos to some very thoughtful and intelligent posts here. Agree or disagree, great thoughts IMO.

Personally, while add-ons are not essential, I find myself playing ESO more with them. I find myself enjoying the game much more.

Look, I respect players like @AlexDougherty who decide not to use them and if that's what floats your boat, more power to you. But I can have a busy enough life with enough responsibilities and details to attend to, I personally don't want them in my game.

I want my game to be immersive and fun... If I wanted to make another Excel spread sheet and stick it on a 2nd monitor I would have stuck with EvE

twev · June 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If you're aware that most API changes are going to be for security reasons, then you should also be aware that they shouldn't be releasing information about security-related changes. It completely defeats the purpose of security.

And, as always:

1. Add-ons are not required to play the game.
2. .......................................................
4. Add-ons are not required to play the game.

A lot of things aren't required to play the game.

You don't actually need color management to be as good as it is. I have friends who are colorblind, and they play this game. We played games for years without all this frivolous graphics stuff.

You don't need voice acting. The computer can synthisize a voice for you. Or better yet, how about text on the screen? We got along with that for a while.
You can use whatever voices you want as you read the text out loud.

How about less fidelity in sound? We managed to play games in the 90's with midi files. Why should the game use better than that? Midi tech was perfectly good, and worked for years.

You don't need more than 8 buttons on a keyboard, you can just press combinations of buttons to get the desired result. I know... we can require that all games produced are restricted to an XboX controller, only, because XboX games's don't need any more than that.
Maybe we can get a good deal on Wii controllers, and they can be hardcoded into the game as the only controller that will work?

And those big screens with the wide aspect ratio? Do you know how much more development time and money is spent making the video displayed on the screen wider than it has to be?

None of the above is required. So why do you allow yourself to be used by the hardware manufacturers the way you do? Purists would learn to make do with the least possible combination of stuffs.

Do you want to submit to what I think you should be allowed to use in the game?

Please, spare us the 'You don't need anything that I don't need' rhetoric.
Times change, and people want better.
Either this game starts providing better, soon, or a lot of people are going to start looking at the next game that does provide it, a lot sooner than they had planned to look around.

otoh, they don't need to write other games, either. So maybe we should start working on convincing people they only need the one game.

And, just so you know I hope we can remain friends, I really want you have a great day the next time you play.

babylon · June 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

snip
3. Add-ons are not required to play the game.

Yes they are. This game is terrible without addons.

ESOBTester · June 2014

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

If you're aware that most API changes are going to be for security reasons, then you should also be aware that they shouldn't be releasing information about security-related changes. It completely defeats the purpose of security.
...

While twev and babylon addressed the part below the ellipsis, I wanted to address the first part. If you aren't going to have a decent enough UI without farming great chunks of it out to third-party developers, you had better well keep them in the loop on your changes. To your point, maybe you don't want them to peek into all of your internals. At the same time they need to be brought into the loop early on or else you can end up with a guild store that is basically garbage, a totally gimped minimap, etc, etc. Some folks are ok without add-ons. I lean more to agreeing with babylon. Given that, the lack of coordination with third party developers is a sign of bad design coordination. And contrary to some opinions, in a week it will still have had and impact. The folks doing third party work aren't getting a steady paycheck from Zenimax to the best of my knowledge. Making a bad collaboration environment can't be seen as encouraging them to stick with their hard work.

Cogo · June 2014

Ojustaboo wrote: »

As I have said in a few other threads, the new Addon TOS we al had to agree to, in my opinion is implying that Zenimax don't really support addons.

I happily use them but I know many people are apprehensive.

Many people feel they are not part of the intended game and when others have told them that Zenimax fully supports the use of addons etc, and then Zenimax put out the new TOS they put out yesterday, it sort of looks like they don't support them at all and I fear that could do real harm.

To quote a bit of it (Caps is theirs, the bold bits I've made bold)

ZOS is not responsible for any Add-ons, or the Game if You download and/or use an Add-on; YOU USE THESE AT YOUR OWN RISK;

ZOS will not provide customer support on any Add-ons or Your Game product if You download and/or use an Add-on. Disable all Add-ons prior to contacting Customer Service;

Your Game may not function properly as a result of downloading and/or using Add-ons.

Any Add-ons and/or files that appear to be Add-ons that You download could contain malicious code that could affect Your system. ZOS is not responsible for any such malicious code or the performance of Your system as a result of such malicious code;

I know Zenimax are trying to cover themselves, but what that will read like to most people is that even if you download an addon and don't actually use it, Zenimax will not offer you any support for your game.

Zenimax stated before launch and in their player contract you buy, that ESO allows addons, but Zenimax does not support them.

Same thing as what they just put up. Most likely cause a lot of ESO support had to turn away players who called Zenimax for an addon not working.

And you can see on older posts in this forum, where lots of complaints was cause of addon not working after patch, or the players game did not work, and the cause was an addon.

I do agree with you that with a firm statement players CAN get the view that Zenimax does not support you at all.

But, I do think it was needed to HIGHLIGHT a kind of obvious detail, that just because Zenimax allows addons and do not see them as "cheating", they are of course in no way supporting a software they have not done.

This isnt news. WoW, which most players have played, is exactly the same.
However, Curse does a fantastic job of updating.

One interesting observation I have done among my guild friends and others who uses addons. Those who use addons for cosmetic, moving a bar, RP stuff that has nothing to do with combat, finding hidden quest, best build, etc, seams to have very little problems with their addons.

Those who have, are the Combat ones that shows numbers, info etc.
And strangely seams upset to not be able to "play" without knowing the exact number of your exp, or damage, whatever.

Is it really that important to know the number of your skill 1 in damage?
Its it more important how you play and kill your target?

I am totally biased though, since I do not use a single addon and wount until I find one that would add something to my game.

I am ALL for the use of addons for everyone. I just giggle a bit when someone "cant play" without the combat addons ;-)

Cogo · June 2014

SFBryan18 wrote: »

As long as Skyshards and Lorebooks work, I'm good. Patches always break mods and add ons. It's up to the author to update their creation.

I know I am gonna be hated for this comment, but Id like to state my opinion about just these 2 addons. The skyshard and the lorebook.

First. I am very much for the use of addons for all players, so they can add good stuff THEY see as good in the game. Since everyone view on whats good and not is very different.

I do wish that these 2 addons would not be so popular. I know even without em, there is tons of info to find with google.

BUT, after playing pretty much daily since 5 days early access, I can just say, that ONE of the most enjoyable experience with ESO (And there are many) is EVERY TIME I find a skyshard, I get as happy as I did the first time in late April.

I do not want to push MY way on others. I do however think there would be more people who simply missing out on an enjoyment, because of the addon. Not all....but more then a few.

Sure! I have much less skill points then most in my Vet levels, but I have enough for max in 2 trade skills and enough skills to tank Vet instanced dungeons.

I do not even have half of the possible skills, but I have those I've chosen with care, since 1 skill point was and is VERY valuable to me.

Most, who have like 50 extra and put a point in pretty much every skill........I understand why they might feel a bit bored with skills.

Just my view on these 2 addons and why I think more people would get a better experience if they had to look a bit.

What I do think they need to add in game, is the ability to write a note on your in game maps, that stays there on your char (char bound, not account bound).

This way, you can find stuff or know where things are and just look in your book.

babylon · June 2014

Cogo wrote: »

(char bound, not account bound).

You're STILL trying to control us.

Nox_Aeterna · June 2014

Honestly , i have yet to check which addons they broke , im hoping the modders can get them back working before i login.

Then again , this is how zen develops this game , they break everything that is worth having and add their crap broken content filled with bugs instead of checking it first.