A serious discussion about vampires

Raash · June 2014

Before posting, please read what lore says about vampires

The vampires of Tamriel are undead, diseased persons who are hated, hunted, and misunderstood by the living.[1] Whether they consider themselves cursed or blessed, or whether they have given into their animalistic instincts or have sought to rid the world of the disease, vampires are nonetheless considered abominations.

[5] while not impervious to death, a vampire may be killed only by meeting a violent end. ((personal note: Silverbolts anyone?!))
[6] A vampire's skin is extremely susceptible to sunlight and flame, so much so that contact with it burns the skin.[7]
[8] Documents describe vampires being turned to dust even without being slain by flame

all can be found here : http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire

With this in mind, I say new silverbolt should indeed stay.
Its pretty obvious that vampires of this game had drifted very far from lore and had to be put back into place.
I suggest that they should implement a way to spot and hunt down vampires in your own alliance aswell. Vampires have no place among the living in tamriel and especially not as heroes or emperors etc.

Please Z-max, make this happen.

Elirienne · June 2014

Agree. Players should not be able to be vampires at all. This was the absolute worst decision that this game made.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

The player has often found himself allied with vampires through the storylines of Elder Scrolls games, and has been capable of becoming a vampire in more ES games than not. Simply put, it's a standard Elder Scrolls feature. Some would even say iconic.

And while the mechanics behind vampires and werewolves have been argued ad nauseum, I would say this: if any player can be one-shot reliably, then there is no reason a player who is assassinated by a nightblade (from behind, from stealth) should not instantly die as well.

By the logic of 'it should happen', I then firmly argue that players being assassinated and dying instantly should happen as well.

Rylana · June 2014

Personally I would be perfectly happy if those aforementioned NPCs you interact/align/fight against during the course of the quest story knew you were one.

It completely broke any sense of "immersion" into the story to have an NPC blatantly mention abomination to me in the first sentence, and then sing my praises about how i was going to cleanse them in the second, meanwhile I am staring at him in stage 4.

wtf

Merlin13KAGL · June 2014

According to the questline, vampires are diseased, damaged by sunlight, and weaker than the Scions created in the process of gaining the 'Vampire' skill line.

The 'Vampire' quest does differentiate between the two - however, you must perform the questline to see this.

In ESO's defense, one of the first things noted in the quest, is that the Vampire's you speak of are explained to be different, unaffected by sunlight like their weaker cousins...

Silver bolts should cause damage. Silver bolts should have a chance to be dodged or blocked.

Silver bolts should not automatically provide a kill unless your aim is guaranteed to pierce the heart through all other armor every time.

Equally, wielder of the silver bolts, to be fair, your character should not be automatically unaffected by the fear that would be instilled by facing a vampire.

With fighter's guild training, you would be less affected by this than the average individual, but in a life or death situation, you would hardly be exempt.

And in a situation that place you on the wrong end of a vampire, is there any other kind?

There is lore and perspective on all levels for those in Tamriel. Vampires are creatures of Tamriel... Some will fear, some will respect, some will remain neutral. It's always based on the individuals knowledge and personal experience. The same holds true of Daedra, Necromancer's, and assorted other classes of creatures in the realm.

Someone who has memory of Fighter's Guild members ravaging their home and family as a child, perhaps for valid reason, would grow to loathe and fear the guild in much the same way as you expect all to loathe and fear the vampires you seek to destroy.

There are valid arguments on both sides of the discussion.

Animus0724 · June 2014

A wise man once said,

"I believe that lore exists the serve the game and not the other way around."

With that said, the reason lore breaks in this game is to indeed, serve the game, think about playing a vampire and never being able to play during ingame day time, this would turn many players away from being a vampire, is that what you want? To take away a feature of this game?

and on another note...one shot too vampires? No...just no dude, what you are suggesting is weakening the Vampire, an already squishy player with buffs that barely make it worth it...in my opinion vamps are fine as is even if it breaks lore.

mndfreeze · June 2014

I'd have to agree that trying to make them classic TES vampires with classic TES negatives and bonus's doesn't fit in this game at all. At least not now. Perhaps way later they can introduce new aspects of it but any massive changes at the moment to try to get them more in line with TES lore of past games would severely screw the balance way out of whack even farther, which is the opposite of what anyone wants right now.

The_Sadist · June 2014

Obvious bug is obvious.

Have you done the DC quest line? There's a rather helpful vampire there. Furthermore, helpful vampires appear in Oblivion if I recall.

Lastly, the type of vampirism in ESO is one which makes vampires immune to sunlight and stronger at night time, as seen here http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Disease.

"Noxiphilic Sanguivoria

Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is a strain of vampirism that was common during the Second Era. Unlike other vampiric diseases such as Porphyric Hemophilia and Sanguinare Vampiris, vampires of the Noxiphilic Sanguivoria strain are not weakened by daylight, but are instead strengthened during the night. Complete transmission of the disease requires that a vampire not only bite his or her victim, but also drain the victim's blood and replace it with the vampire's own. If the victim can escape before this process can be completed, the disease can be treated by a priest of Arkay."

I suggest playing a through Oblivion or Skyrim, where vampirism provides many benefits. Furthermore, in Morrowind it becomes apparent that only the intellectual (Mage's guild / House Telvanni) are capable of seeing beyond your affliction which brings about my general consensus that characters simply fear the unknown.

All this vampire hate is pretty stupid, I fear what will happen if the Lich is ever introduced.

Laura · June 2014

they should get the guard smack if they wander into a city at stage 4 too.

Soulharvester · June 2014

TLDR:
3 stage full pvp much like another older game that was very fun to play...
Territory control, city control etc, special quests.
Scoring system determines if a city or territory is vampire, werewolf or little hunter.
Sunlight should hurt vampires.. Night time, akatosh help you...
PVP toggle so not everyone is forced into it, etc
Your going to be eaten by many vampires so you should just join us...

I agree with you, we should have balance, we should follow lore!

You know, there is also another side to this, and that would probably be in determining which of us will be a trophy, or dinner.

The various Vampire houses of Tamriel, should also be able to hunt the hunters, and the werewolves as well...

Now this is purely an idea after reading your post and the lore, I think this could be something that might help keep things in a perspective that would be fair for all involved.

We could have 3 designations, which ultimately would open up the door for a new design, based on pvp, no restrictions.

The 3 designations could be, Vampire, Werewolf, hunter...

As a result, this opens possibilities in regards to new spells, territory control, city control, special merchants, quests, etc.

For example:
It would only be natural when Vampires take a city, that the guard themselves would be Vampires, which would allow those guards to go after the other designations, should they foolish enough to trespass...

Much the same as when the hunters or werewolves take a city and those guards should change to the designation of the victor.

We could have a scoring system as how much of the specific quests were completed or something like that.

Lets stop here, and go back in time, about 12 years or so...
A game existed that I will not mention, but I will describe it.

It was 3 realms going at each others territories for control and buffs etc.

An incentive existed much like the incentive you have with Cyrodil.

A particular dungeon would open up for the one with the most control as well.

Now if you happened to be in said dungeon, and was to log out, and your factions loses the dungeon. You can still play in that dungeon, you just wont be to re-spawn, without a resurrection from another player of your faction.

Some of you know this game well, others, not so much, but the design, nothing comes close to true combat in an mmo in my opinion.

Now back to the present,
The one game that has come very close, is ESO!

Instead of a realm war, we have a civil war... Between the houses of vampires, guilds of hunters and the packs of werewolves...

This can bring us new spells, a 3 front warfare, taking cities, territories. Of course this could all stop just by dropping the designations or some kind of pvp toggle, then its back to normal play.

Im sure some better ideas about how to implement things exist and by all means, make it better!

Yes, sunlight should roast a vampire much the same as poison dissolves a werewolf... It should weaken the attacks at day but at night; best to be in a group if you are going to face one of us in the dark... So, that means stronger weapons, enchantments that focus on energies only found at night time for example...

Will this keep things in lore, I think it would allow to follow lore as well as define it!

Will this fix werewolves, I think it could go in that direction, I mean to have a successful 3 front war, all those designations needs cohesion, balance etc.

Just my thoughts, I am all for any pvp, but I also believe it should not be forced on people either; so having something that allows people to toggle it on or off for people with those designations.

When its on, they are red to opposing designations, when its off, they show as normal etc.

Should be a timer associated with changing as well, nothing drastic, just enough so people wont abuse it, much lol.

Anyway, sorry if I went a little off the topic. I think you want change, and I also want change, we just happen to be on opposing sides is all.

Oh and anytime you would like to come join us, you have an open invitation!
Otherwise, looking forward to having you for dinner!

AlienSlof · June 2014

Elirienne wrote: »

Agree. Players should not be able to be vampires at all. This was the absolute worst decision that this game made.

Elder Scrolls games have always allowed players to become vampires - or werewolves. To take that away from those of us who like playing vampires would make it no longer Elder Scrolls as we know it.

I have 3 vampires and planning more - playing as vampire is the core of my ES gameplay in all the games. My main character is defined by his vampirism - he loves his unlife and delights in being an evil b**tard!

I don't have any interest in PvP so I can't speak for vampire players who do, but I chose the vampirism for the roleplay aspects of it, and enjoy the weaknesses as much as the strengths. It's all part of the package for me and I use tactics accordingly to ensure their survival.

The_Sadist · June 2014

The sun SHOULDN'T hurt vampires as it clearly states that this particular disease renders vampires immune to said sun light. I don't understand why people can't grasp that extremely basic concept. Furthermore, nobody will roll vampires, as the day:night cycle isn't 1:1, it's more like 6:1 in terms of hours.

Lastly, no @Soulharvester‌, this game isn't meant to be about vampires v werewolves v hunters, vampires and werewolves / werecreatures simply exist in the Elder Scrolls universe and are not pivotal to the storyline (the Skyrim expansion aside). Making a system based around the 3 would be silly at best.

Soulharvester · June 2014

.

The_Sadist wrote: »

The sun SHOULDN'T hurt vampires as it clearly states that this particular disease renders vampires immune to said sun light. I don't understand why people can't grasp that extremely basic concept. Furthermore, nobody will roll vampires, as the day:night cycle isn't 1:1, it's more like 6:1 in terms of hours.

Lastly, no @Soulharvester‌, this game isn't meant to be about vampires v werewolves v hunters, vampires and werewolves / werecreatures simply exist in the Elder Scrolls universe and are not pivotal to the storyline (the Skyrim expansion aside). Making a system based around the 3 would be silly at best.

So in regards to lore and dealing with undead/huntes/werewolves, the idea I offered, was just an idea. I believe this would be a nice change of pace if nothing else.

What would you suggest be done in regards to what the OP wrote about?

cigarsmoker · June 2014

The ESO version of vampirism is much closer to the Dracula story that all other modern vampire stories and legends are based upon.
Good old Drac was pretty normal during the day provided he had fed; through he did not care for direct sunlight. If he had not fed for some time he would appear aged and feeble. At night he could command his full array of vampiric powers to slip through the shadows and find his victims.
So I have no problem with the current version of vampirism in this game. It's nice to see a nod towards the original story. For the most part ESO vamps are pretty normal during the day. If they don't feed there are cosmetic changes and some game mechanics changes. The day/night powers is much harder to do in a game with such a short time scale, so everything is based on feeding. A very good compromise with the original story in my opinion.

If we're giving one shot kill powers to Nightblades I'm all for that, though personally I'd prefer they fix all the other stuff that's wrong with them first. ;-)

But seriously, one shot kills are not good for any game. Sure you can find that series of buffs and attacks that could kill someone in two or three hits, but the opponent has at least a couple of options in defending himself while you're working out your attack pattern.

I'd like if all the ranged attacks were more like Oblivion where you actually had to aim them; account for the arrow's drop, the distance to the target, all of the things that would make the game just a little more 'real'.

Islyn · June 2014

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Equally, wielder of the silver bolts, to be fair, your character should not be automatically unaffected by the fear that would be instilled by facing a vampire.

With fighter's guild training, you would be less affected by this than the average individual, but in a life or death situation, you would hardly be exempt.

And in a situation that place you on the wrong end of a vampire, is there any other kind?

*Begins Slow Clap*

ItsMeToo · June 2014

Just an FYI - Anything that ZOS puts into the game becomes lore. Saying that the vampires in ESO is not lore is incorrect.

Spiritreaver_ESO · June 2014

ItsMeToo wrote: »

Just an FYI - Anything that ZOS puts into the game becomes lore. Saying that the vampires in ESO is not lore is incorrect.

Very good point that gets glossed over way too often.

metroda · June 2014

If they leave in one-shotting vampires then all of the serious pvp'ers are going to drop it and go back to riding everyone who needs an op ability up and down cyrodil. Keep church out of government and keep your G-Darned lore out of my pvp.

The_Sadist · June 2014

Soulharvester wrote: »

What would you suggest be done in regards to what the OP wrote about?

See below.

Furthermore, the OP is a bit delusional if he seriously thinks that vampires should be killed in two hits while PvPing. This topic isn't serious in the slightest, it's simply amusing.

The_Sadist wrote: »

Obvious bug is obvious.

Have you done the DC quest line? There's a rather helpful vampire there. Furthermore, helpful vampires appear in Oblivion if I recall.

Lastly, the type of vampirism in ESO is one which makes vampires immune to sunlight and stronger at night time, as seen here http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Disease.

"Noxiphilic Sanguivoria

Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is a strain of vampirism that was common during the Second Era. Unlike other vampiric diseases such as Porphyric Hemophilia and Sanguinare Vampiris, vampires of the Noxiphilic Sanguivoria strain are not weakened by daylight, but are instead strengthened during the night. Complete transmission of the disease requires that a vampire not only bite his or her victim, but also drain the victim's blood and replace it with the vampire's own. If the victim can escape before this process can be completed, the disease can be treated by a priest of Arkay."

I suggest playing a through Oblivion or Skyrim, where vampirism provides many benefits. Furthermore, in Morrowind it becomes apparent that only the intellectual (Mage's guild / House Telvanni) are capable of seeing beyond your affliction which brings about my general consensus that characters simply fear the unknown.

All this vampire hate is pretty stupid, I fear what will happen if the Lich is ever introduced.

MornaBaine · June 2014

Vampires have always been in the associated stand alone games. They are a large part of the draw for THIS game. Changes will happen due to the nature of MMOs and the mechanics they pretty much REQUIRE.

I Do think it would be fun if they'd make vamps a little more challenging to play from a PvE standpoint. A stage 4 vampire SHOULD have townies running away from them and guards coming after them. Have you SEEN a stage 4 vamp? Scary as hell! ABSOLUTELY the citizenry should react to that! Ditto if a werewolf changes to their werewolf form while in a city.

However, I think stage 1 is wayyyy too short for vamps. It needs to be lengthened to a full hour. AND vamps should be able to do their non-fatal feed on townie NPCs. If caught by the guards they should be in some major trouble. It would ALSO be cool if they could use their non-fatal feed on other players... provided the player consented. This WOULD require something like the duel function where the vamp would have to send you an "invite" and you could either accept or decline AND you should be able to simply make your setting "auto-decline" so that you can't get spammed by ***.

But to the OP...stop whining about vamps. We're here to stay. Eternally.

AlienSlof · June 2014

^ This ^
I do wish the game would acknowledge that I'm a vampire. One of my vamps was asked to get some vampire blood - why couldn't she have asked if he would donate?

Vampires could have optional lines a bit like persuade or intimidate works.

Gedalya · June 2014

Elirienne wrote: »

Agree. Players should not be able to be vampires at all. This was the absolute worst decision that this game made.

WTB disagree button.

Absinthe · June 2014

Leave in the auto-death from silver bolts. My main is a vampire and I am fine with that but there must be some concession, wouldn't you agree?

So leave in the auto Silver Bolt kills...only vampires can NOT use it. Also, should you not be a vampire and I feed upon you then YOU become one in a very limited time frame.

Silver Bolt me all you want. But let me bite you so that you can feel the pain from my non-vamp Silver Bolt spamming friends as well.

Deal?

DeLindsay · June 2014

NO ability in the game used by a player should be capable of 1-shot'ing another player of roughly equal level, period. I have no issue with Silver Shards doing a crazy high amount of damage on a 5% chance, but the current "bug" is that 5% chance is anywhere from 50-100% according to many who have personally used and witnessed it.

Mescalamba · June 2014

DeLindsay wrote: »

NO ability in the game used by a player should be capable of 1-shot'ing another player of roughly equal level, period. I have no issue with Silver Shards doing a crazy high amount of damage on a 5% chance, but the current "bug" is that 5% chance is anywhere from 50-100% according to many who have personally used and witnessed it.

Any chance for instakill is still too high. Thats not balance. Punishing players for way they like to play?

Raash · June 2014

Soulharvester wrote: »

TLDR:
3 stage full pvp much like another older game that was very fun to play...
Territory control, city control etc, special quests.
Scoring system determines if a city or territory is vampire, werewolf or little hunter.
Sunlight should hurt vampires.. Night time, akatosh help you...
PVP toggle so not everyone is forced into it, etc
Your going to be eaten by many vampires so you should just join us...

I think what you wrote here are pure excellence. Thank you. Something like these would indeed make very much sense and make this game so much more joyfull. I am not against that there should be vampires in game, on the contrary.
I do hate vampires tho and would really like to be able to do so in game aswell.
i think the current system doesnt make either vampire or werewolves OR the people that choose to not go either way any justice at all. Bring consequences into the game, not just stupid skill lines and dumb mechanics.

And to rest in thread, keep the discussion going! my intension was to catch attention, wich I think I succeded with to some degree. i really like what I see here so far

butterfly442 · June 2014

Raash wrote: »

Before posting, please read what lore says about vampires

The vampires of Tamriel are undead, diseased persons who are hated, hunted, and misunderstood by the living.[1] Whether they consider themselves cursed or blessed, or whether they have given into their animalistic instincts or have sought to rid the world of the disease, vampires are nonetheless considered abominations.

[5] while not impervious to death, a vampire may be killed only by meeting a violent end. ((personal note: Silverbolts anyone?!))
[6] A vampire's skin is extremely susceptible to sunlight and flame, so much so that contact with it burns the skin.[7]
[8] Documents describe vampires being turned to dust even without being slain by flame

all can be found here : http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vampire

With this in mind, I say new silverbolt should indeed stay.
Its pretty obvious that vampires of this game had drifted very far from lore and had to be put back into place.
I suggest that they should implement a way to spot and hunt down vampires in your own alliance aswell. Vampires have no place among the living in tamriel and especially not as heroes or emperors etc.

Please Z-max, make this happen.

Serious, and vampire, should not be used in the same sentence.

Sieghart · June 2014

you can make your vampire character have the restrictions you want you know?
don't want to be caught as a vampire in town?
Then dress yourself in something that will hide the fact you are whiter then an albino nerd in winter.
Feel that you are offended because your skin doesn't burst into flames in the sun light?
Don't go out in the sun, stay in the shade, dress as in above.

They most likely did it so people wouldn't complain that they cant play most of the time if they wanted to be a vampire.

Anyway, you want to be one, play one. I do.
its not hard to play the way you want to, no matter what the vocal majority like to say, if you want to.

Don't like vampires and feel hatred towards those that do?
Cool, sounds like fun. But really I hope its just because your in game character doesn't like them. 'Cause if you're that upset about something you don't have to be or use at all then you are a pretty sad and narrow minded individual.

michael21 · June 2014

I think you should be allowed to become a vampire. I am a vampire and plan on ridding it soon because of the pitfalls usually IMO outweighing bonuses. But the silver shards should not stay like this, its already has enough back-drafts as it is, and some people on this thread want to disallow players to even be them, or keep silver shards as it is. Its funny because i died in PVP yesterday repeatedly from that silver shards doing crazy damage on me. Its okay for a 5% toe even a 15% chance of it the crazy undead enemy bonus, but vamp is a cool feature with a whole other skill line of passives and pitfalls. They are in no way OP, and alot of people son even have a vamp skill on their bar. I think because they are so under powered right now, which they are, there is about no good reason to be a vamp, they could've had the ultimate to turn into a vamp lord like in skyrim! Then they could keep it the way it is(aside from silver shards extinction ability), and add a cool thing to vamp especially because the bonuses are engulfed by its setbacks, aside from the damage mitigation being a pretty useful tool, still doesn't add up for vamps.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

Raash wrote: »

[5] while not impervious to death, a vampire may be killed only by meeting a violent end. ((personal note: Silverbolts anyone?!))
[6] A vampire's skin is extremely susceptible to sunlight and flame, so much so that contact with it burns the skin.[7]
[8] Documents describe vampires being turned to dust even without being slain by flame

Um, not quite with the first one @raash.

In Oblivion the Vampire Duke of Skingrad's wife, who was also a vampie died because she wouldn't feed, and so starved to death. Not a violent death.
In Skyrim you find a Vampie in the Dark Brotherhood who has a severe allergy to Garlic (not a common allergy among TES Vampires), and you could kill him with that allergy. Again not a violent death.

Raash · June 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Raash wrote: »

[5] while not impervious to death, a vampire may be killed only by meeting a violent end. ((personal note: Silverbolts anyone?!))
[6] A vampire's skin is extremely susceptible to sunlight and flame, so much so that contact with it burns the skin.[7]
[8] Documents describe vampires being turned to dust even without being slain by flame

Um, not quite with the first one @raash.

In Oblivion the Vampire Duke of Skingrad's wife, who was also a vampie died because she wouldn't feed, and so starved to death. Not a violent death.
In Skyrim you find a Vampie in the Dark Brotherhood who has a severe allergy to Garlic (not a common allergy among TES Vampires), and you could kill him with that allergy. Again not a violent death.

Aha? I didnt write the lore so I dont know. Might be quazi lore that is listed at uesp.net for all I care, just that i was under the impression that it is among the best places to read about elder scrolls lore thats all.