F2P what's the issue ? Help me someone to see....

Stratti · June 2014

So ... All along I have read about this massive issue in our player base at people complaining about Subscription model etc etc. I need help understanding this because it confuses me.

So here it is ... $15 per month is the sub fee - $180 dollars per year .

Some comparisons half a cup of coffee in Melbourne 4 times a month = same value or less than 50 coffees in a year
The enjoyment of coffee while great is short lived - enjoyment of a game is on demand

$180 a year = the same value as an expensive dinner for two with your significant other followed by a couple of drinks after the meal - now 1 in a whole year - something more fun then a month of gaming (depending on the partner)

Try and sign up for a golf game of 9 holes - good luck getting more than 4 a year on that money

Parking - $180 would give you around 50-60 hours in a meter or perhaps 6 days in a city parking bay .

$180 would hardly buy you a one way flight between major cities - once a year

The list goes on . My point is simple if you are complaining about subscriptions , as many people are, pull your head in $15 is not a lot of money for anyone period. If you are logging on and can read this post then you have $15. My 13 year old gets more than $180 a year in pocket money and spare change.

Enough of the lies - $15 is affordable per month by anyone in the western world - who has a computer and the internet

kazm · June 2014

Once you introduce F2P then there is no longer equal footing among the players. Some people will have the money to pay for new things, some won't, it's a crap system. I would rather pay my monthly fee and be assured I am getting all the content available in the game.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · June 2014

Also, let's face it, "F2P" games end up costing most players a lot more than $15 per month. They are cynically designed to milk you for money. An up front sub fee is honest, and I prefer that any day over a "F2P" model.

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

f2p is not free. you are free to download the game, install it and log into the game but actually experiencing the content will entirely depend on what kind of model the company chooses for their game.

games that go f2p after failing at sub for a good reason. most of those games were a rushed, garbled mess of a product. you can be assured that once it goes f2p it is not to "save" the game for the gamers but to milk every drop left.

Armianlee · June 2014

There is a large difference between thread title and OP content. I think they meant to say "P2P Whats the issue?"

Blackwidow · June 2014

F2P is more expensive that P2P.

True story.

CTraveler · June 2014

Free To Play is tons more expensive for the players. People seldom realize it, but they end up shelling out TONS more cash than they would have otherwise.

Cudda · June 2014

I would love to try and help you understand!!!

You are looking at this from a small/simple fraction of the whole pie.

You apparently play by yourself, which is completely fine!! You apparently also just play maybe one MMO, again that is fine. But I bet if you actually knew (I don't but just going by what I commonly see) how many people play more than one MMO.

So why the confrontation on 15$ a month.

Let me give you my reason

I may play 2 - 3 MMOs at a time. My wife usually only plays 1 MMO, but sometimes she will play another MMO that I am playing for a few months. So as you see, I am putting out roughly 100$ a month, or 1200$ a year. I would say its usually less than 1000$ a year, because not always will all subscriptions be active at the same time. At least 2 subs are always going so that's 30$ a month for sure.

Now you mentioned all the other things that cost money. Keep in mind that all those things that cost money, is still going on. So what is the real issue.

You assume that people "can't afford" to pay 15$ a month and complain about it. Since that is the mindset you are coming with, I can only assume you are not well with money management and assume that is why everyone is complaining.

It is not an issue with OMG IM BROKE PLAYING MMOs WHY YOU CHARGE ME 15$!!! It's an issue of, I pay 15$ for this other game, you are also asking for 15$ but are you giving me a near equal line of entertainment as the other 15$ games I play.

And the issue is, People do not feel ESO is providing the equal part. So you say, "then quit". They are not saying they don't like the game. They are saying the feel over charged for it in its current form.

Sturmwaffel · June 2014

Best way to find out is to go play a F2P.

I mean if you're just a kid looking for something to do all summer, sure why not. Go be fodder for the people who pay to win.

Otherwise, subscription usually gives a better game experience and holds more loyal (read recurrent) players.

pong · June 2014

once F2P is introduced expect bots to get much more worse. It just ruins every thing. Player beggars everywhere

Yeah it's free access but the content is charged every time.

IF YOU HAVE NO MONEY play flappy bird

Cudda · June 2014

Most of the ppl complaining about the cost of 15$ per month, probably make double to triple of what the ppl saying "if you dont have money dont play" lol

Curragraigue · June 2014

I have no problem with paying a sub for regular content.

If I'm paying a sub I expect to get my money's worth by playing that game with the limited free time I do have. So I don't plan on playing any other MMOs that also charge a sub, just feels like a waste of time and money.

Fuzzylumpkins · June 2014

F2P turns into Pay2win.

And imo a sub based game should actually be entertaining enough to pay for monthly.

someuser · June 2014

Cudda wrote: »

Let me give you my reason

I may play 2 - 3 MMOs at a time. My wife usually only plays 1 MMO, but sometimes she will play another MMO that I am playing for a few months. So as you see, I am putting out roughly 100$ a month, or 1200$ a year. I would say its usually less than 1000$ a year, because not always will all subscriptions be active at the same time. At least 2 subs are always going so that's 30$ a month for sure.

Now you mentioned all the other things that cost money. Keep in mind that all those things that cost money, is still going on. So what is the real issue.

You assume that people "can't afford" to pay 15$ a month and complain about it. Since that is the mindset you are coming with, I can only assume you are not well with money management and assume that is why everyone is complaining.

It is not an issue with OMG IM BROKE PLAYING MMOs WHY YOU CHARGE ME 15$!!! It's an issue of, I pay 15$ for this other game, you are also asking for 15$ but are you giving me a near equal line of entertainment as the other 15$ games I play.

And the issue is, People do not feel ESO is providing the equal part. So you say, "then quit". They are not saying they don't like the game. They are saying the feel over charged for it in its current form.

Sounds like, based on your personal preferences, a F2P model would work for you. Nothing wrong with that. For you and your wife, you can divide your time between different F2P games thereby minimizing or avoiding the inherent micro transactions.

However, for players like myself who typically only play one (MAYBE two) MMOs, F2P models work out to be nearly the same price as a sub or more. F2P games are designed to "hook players" then charge them to continue to play...

Furthermore, the F2P games start focusing on fluff content and updates that further their marketing model as opposed to releasing content updates as ZoS has been last several months now.

Just look at a game like SWTOR. Every update and expansion has significant amount of content that is designed to get players to spend money as opposed to content that is PvE or PvP oriented like ESO.

Additionally, as others have pointed out here and it other threads, a lot of games go F2P to milk every dollar they can before the game itself dies. Games like UO, WoW, and EvE are all long running MMOs that are subscription based... Most F2P games never reach that level of success because, as I pointed out before, the focus is on micro transactions, not content... the game gets old, the core player base that is usually the backbone of MMO economies leave, and the game slowly but surely dies.

I respect your right to play F2P games and there are plenty of them out there for you and you wife. I respectfully hope ESO never becomes one of them.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

I will gladly spend $15 a month ...

If for no better reason than to play only with other players who are willing to invest in the game for what it is, not with what it sells in it's cash shop.

Free-to-play content development tends to focus more on the cash-shop than on the expansions. It doesn't really matter if the game only gets new content once or twice a year, because it'll at least get a new pet/mount/upgrade kit every couple weeks on the cash shop.

The free-to-play community are largely mobile players who transition from game to game. The game is funded by a small group of players who have the money to put into a game, so that a larger group of players can play with relative freedom. However, in order to entice those players to spend money, items of value (value often equalling performance) have to be implemented in the cash shop. Thus, 'free to play' is often fully transferable with 'pay to win'.

I have no personal beef against a cash shop (even in a subscription game, I will gladly put in extra money each month for vanity items and non-performance-enhancing content, ala the Imperial edition or the mount).

What I do have beef with is a development crew who aren't as interested in keeping the players ENTERTAINED from month to month, but are more focused in trying to keep you SPENDING from month to month. They sound like the same thing, but there is a very obvious difference in the production values and content dedication.

someuser · June 2014

@ruze84b14_ESO well said man.

pong · June 2014

I've played F2P once and my inventory is full of paid junk. once I bought them they will release a new and better one. I don't want to throw away the junk because I paid for them. I'm not even concentrating on the game anymore but the stuff they put in the store.

Here in eso I just recycle, sell, destroy all junk. and play

bugulu · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

F2P is more expensive that P2P.

True story.

CTraveler wrote: »

Free To Play is tons more expensive for the players. People seldom realize it, but they end up shelling out TONS more cash than they would have otherwise.

Somewhat true though this is only applied to the few who actually purchase something.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-04-09-only-2-2-percent-of-free-to-play-users-ever-pay-report
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/177409-only-0-15-of-players-account-for-50-of-free-to-play-game-revenue
http://landingpage.swrve.com/rs/swrve/images/swrve-monetization-report-0114.pdf?mkt_tok=3RkMMJWWfF9wsRonvqzLZKXonjHpfsX56+QrXqG/lMI/0ER3fOvrPUfGjI4AS8BgI+SLDwEYGJlv6SgFTrPHMat50LgJUxE=

The vast majority of the income coming from F2P comes from the minority willing to pay. The other players are freeloading customers who won't ever spend a dime on the game.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

The whole "pay 2 win" argument against F2P doesn't bother me in the slightest, MMOs aren't competitions as I see it I don't care what you have so why care what I have?

LOTRO shows why I view going F2P in a poor light, the game design became perverted to be a 'driver' for Store sales.

Rift OTOH hasn't suffered at all like that and I don't see it plays any differently now, with post-hybrid content being designed and released just like corresponding content was before-hand.

I can see "pay 2 win" is a bad thing in PVP but then I view PVP as a bad thing in itself so I'm quite happy if PVP would die anyway.

Aeradon · June 2014

People say if I saved my money on games since young, I would have a business running for me and if it does well, I will be driving a Ferrari.

They saved up. Where are their Ferraris?

darkunicorn · June 2014

True thing is P2P costs $15
F2P players screaming for F2P will pay $100000000000000000000

Ardeni · June 2014

If you are a student, living on your own, without a job to go along with school, the money situation might be tight whether you live in a western country or not. Having played F2P games for 8 years (this is the first one that I have actually subscribed), I would have no issue with ESO going F2P. For example GW2 deals with being F2P well enough. Their item shop has no overpowered P2W items nor do you get to become more powerful if you use it to get in game gold due to the mainly cosmetic nature of the game's gear.

Even playing games where you actually got quite big boosts for paying real money didn't ever really bother me. I never spent a dime in those game's cash shops. Firstly this was because I didn't feel the need to do so and secondly because during most of this time I had no way to buy the cash in the first place.

As for the community, I can't really say it differs much between the two game types. People will always come and go, whine about the game, whine about the service and declare that they will quit unless X happens. It has nothing to do with the payment model. And bots, well, their existence seems to depend more on the game than on the payment model. Sure, there are less bots in P2P games, but I've also played a lot of F2P games where there were very few bots around due to the not very grindy nature of the game. When people feel like they can get what they want in a reasonable amount of time, they will not bother with trying to bot.

That being said, I don't necessarily care whether ESO stays P2P or goes F2P. The P2P model does have its advantages over F2P one: you get better quality content more frequently and the service overall is better. As long as these two points hold true, paying $15 or 12€ per month will not be an issue for me. When these two things no longer satisfy me, and I no longer have fun in the game, I will just cancel my sub and move on. I would not linger here after that as so many seem to do.

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

kazm wrote: »

Once you introduce F2P then there is no longer equal footing among the players. Some people will have the money to pay for new things, some won't, it's a crap system. I would rather pay my monthly fee and be assured I am getting all the content available in the game.

I'd rather pay a monthly fee but beyond that I largely don't care if some people can buy stuff others can or will not if FTP is the only way to keep a game I enjoy going. However I'd much rather this be luxuries and fluff.

My feeling is that due to ESO being a quite focused game it'd be hard to make it into an FTP game without blatantly selling advantages or actually monetising in game features like LOTRO did.

Of course if ESO went FTP the very first thing that would go is difficulty levels. Like LOTRO again showed - you want to get people to cap ASAP because as you're fleecing them at every stage you want to do it quickly.

LOTRO slowly became an unpleasant game run by a deeply cynical company.

But my experience in STO is different. Lots of fluff like uniforms to buy and even if you buy one of the slightly more powerful iconic ship it impacts on no-one but myself. Especially as it becomes obsolete in 3 days play when you rank up.

But STO is a broad sandbox so there's plenty of room to sell stuff.

FTP for ESO would basically involve it becoming a different game aimed at a different market.

Loco_Mofo · June 2014

I don't think anyone is really asking for F2P, most people experienced in these games know how bad they turn out.

I think it's more of an insult people throw out there making out the game is not worth sub.

steveb16_ESO46 · June 2014

Loco_Mofo wrote: »

I don't think anyone is really asking for F2P, most people experienced in these games know how bad they turn out.

I think it's more of an insult people throw out there making out the game is not worth sub.

Few people WANT it to go FTP. We FEAR it might end up that way.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

Loco_Mofo wrote: »

I don't think anyone is really asking for F2P, most people experienced in these games know how bad they can turn out..

FTFY.

It's not inevitable like you're trying to make out.

R1ckyDaMan · June 2014

you forgot to factor in the cost of the game itself

I may go play bf4 when I want as long as I want... and still have my coffee, similar I could go play gw2 as long as i want, when i want and still have my coffee

Ninnghizhidda · June 2014

Anyway you want to view it, a subscription of $15 per month, is really cheap entertainment IF you enjoy the product and the time you spend online.

In the long run you might think that a "one-off" purchase of some game comes cheaper (an example that has been mentioned could be GW2). Or even some traditional PC game, that you mostly play solo. This might be true.

However, if we are talking about "solo" games we can not really safely compare them to an online MMO. Each kind caters to different tastes, and the replayability of "solo" games can be quite limited.

A good subscription based MMO, should offer an evolving environment with regular content updates, events etc, and of course, the ever present "social interaction".

On the other hand, F2P games might seem to offer the same. In some cases they are indeed fairly competent. The "hidden agenta" though is quite simple, but not very obvious to many people. It just means that usually it will cost you more. It will cost you more to enjoy and have access to all the features you would have under a subscription model. This is well documented through the years.

It could also mean that a F2P model, is actually leaning to "pay-to-win", or it is just plainly "pay-to-win". And this means, you are severely handicapped if you do not spend good coin not only to be "top and uber" but even to be average. And if you get "hooked" in such a game you could well spend 100s or 1000s.

So, in that sense, a subscription based model is the best value for money, and the most "fair" with same content and choices available to everyone. And, at most, just having some purely cosmetic items available for real cash, and even those should be quite limited.

Personally, I can not see how ESO would adapt to a F2P model right now, unless drastic changes happen. And I still hope it will remain subscription based and instead Zeni puts more effort to correct the certain issues plaguing it, at least they seem to be active towards this direction.

P.S. Forgot to mention one more important fact, about the F2P model. You do get all sorts of "idiots" around, quite simply because, you know it is... free.

Yasha · June 2014

Stratti wrote: »

So ... All along I have read about this massive issue in our player base at people complaining about Subscription model etc etc. I need help understanding this because it confuses me.

So here it is ... $15 per month is the sub fee - $180 dollars per year .

Some comparisons half a cup of coffee in Melbourne 4 times a month = same value or less than 50 coffees in a year
The enjoyment of coffee while great is short lived - enjoyment of a game is on demand

$180 a year = the same value as an expensive dinner for two with your significant other followed by a couple of drinks after the meal - now 1 in a whole year - something more fun then a month of gaming (depending on the partner)

Try and sign up for a golf game of 9 holes - good luck getting more than 4 a year on that money

Parking - $180 would give you around 50-60 hours in a meter or perhaps 6 days in a city parking bay .

$180 would hardly buy you a one way flight between major cities - once a year

The list goes on . My point is simple if you are complaining about subscriptions , as many people are, pull your head in $15 is not a lot of money for anyone period. If you are logging on and can read this post then you have $15. My 13 year old gets more than $180 a year in pocket money and spare change.

Enough of the lies - $15 is affordable per month by anyone in the western world - who has a computer and the internet

I don't think it is a massive issue, but $15/month+box price is expensive when compared to a similar product- ie many other mmos/games.

Whether $15/month is expensive in absolute terms or relative to some other completely different commodity is not the issue. For example $20 is a very small amount of money, but it is very expensive if I am paying that $20 for a cup of coffee, especially if I can get a similar quality coffee for $5 down the road.

While it is likely true that $20 for a cup of coffee is affordable for anyone "in the western world", I would feel somewhat ripped off considering the pricing of competitor coffee shops.

And sure that $20 coffee looks cheap compared to a copy of Maya for $5,000 or a house, but it ain't them- its a coffee.

I hope you can now appreciate the issue.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

When you can get a $2 coffee at McDonalds, and a $20 coffee at Starbucks across the street, why do people still want to go to Starbucks and complain that they are paying too much? Why don't they just go to McDonalds?

Ahh, because they specifically WANT the coffee that Starbucks made. Well then, I guess if they have a valuable product that people want and are willing to pay $20 for (even if they do a little grumbling), then Starbucks must be doing something right!

If Starbucks was charging $20 and nobody was buying? That would be a completely different issue altogether.

GreySix · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

F2P [can often be] more expensive that P2P.

True story.

Modified your statement for accuracy. Many don't bother with purchasing extra perks and gear for F2P games. For them, F2P is obviously less expensive.

But it is true that those who want to remain competitive or strut about with their epeens will pay more with F2P than they would with a subscription model.