Dear Zenimax, (discussion about API changes and addons)

emeraldbay · June 2014

Before you say anything, no, I'm not complaining about how this update "ruined all of my addons" or "wiped my settings" or whatever.

The truth of the matter is that major updates include changes to API that addon authors should know about beforehand so they can update efficiently, and subsequently stop people from whining on the forums like we've seen recently.

It can't be that hard to openly discuss the changes in API the same way you discuss bug fixes and class improvements. API changes can be just as important and game-breaking as bugs. Heck, you don't even have to list API changes every time, because major content patches only happen about once a month so far. Once a month. That's not hard.

It would help tremendously if you could gather your changes together in a nice little page and present them to us the way you do with patch notes. That way, addon authors as well as code-savvy players can be warned beforehand that their addons may break.

andre.roques.3b14_ESO · June 2014

Upvote, agree, insightful...blah, blah.
This is a standard development practice. At least note, before patch release any data items that will 100% be removed or changed. This would, at least, give people a warm fuzzy that their favorite addon dev is armed to quickly respond to API shifts. Please with moonsugar on top. O:-)

BBSooner · June 2014

I'm ignorant with regards to what is available in the PTS, but we're these api changes available in the PTS? Or were they rolled out without making an appearance on the PTS.

andre.roques.3b14_ESO · June 2014

BBSooner wrote: »

I'm ignorant with regards to what is available in the PTS, but we're these api changes available in the PTS? Or were they rolled out without making an appearance on the PTS.

Would you kindly, point me to the PTS API change notes? 3:-)

p_tsakirisb16_ESO · June 2014

Yes these API changes were available on PTS since day one. More than 3 weeks now.

I do not understand the mentality of the complains, chase your MOD developer, not ZoS.

emeraldbay · June 2014

BBSooner wrote: »

I'm ignorant with regards to what is available in the PTS, but we're these api changes available in the PTS? Or were they rolled out without making an appearance on the PTS.

I assume they were on the PTS, but that doesn't excuse them from being undocumented. Addon authors shouldn't always have to test things meticulously just to figure out what's changed. Zenimax should supply us with a list of API changes just like they do with bug fixes and other improvements. It's not difficult, it's just a matter of whether they really support addon authors or not.

BBSooner · June 2014

andre.roques.3b14_ESO wrote: »

BBSooner wrote: »

I'm ignorant with regards to what is available in the PTS, but we're these api changes available in the PTS? Or were they rolled out without making an appearance on the PTS.

Would you kindly, point me to the PTS API change notes? 3:-)

Oh I absolutely agree api changes need to be documented! I'm just saying, since they aren't (which is a crappy situation) it might 'behoove' an add-on dev to hop on PTS and make sure everything is kosher.

Full agreeance on the documentation though!

ferzalrwb17_ESO · June 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes these API changes were available on PTS since day one. More than 3 weeks now.

I do not understand the mentality of the complains, chase your MOD developer, not ZoS.

So, say the author still plays the game, they have to download and setup PTS and then... what.. guess what's breaking their addons? This process could take hours for them whereas appropriate documentation by Zenimax could have had them update it in a few minutes in most cases.

This is yet another neon sign that reads "incompetent".

I really love this game but I have no idea how it will survive the sabotage of the clowns that own it.

andre.roques.3b14_ESO · June 2014

BBSooner wrote: »

Oh I absolutely agree api changes need to be documented! I'm just saying, since they aren't (which is a crappy situation) it might 'behoove' an add-on dev to hop on PTS and make sure everything is kosher.

Full agreeance on the documentation though!

That's really my complaint. It is tedious, on top of already doing all of us players a favor, to force a developer to decipher the API on a live client. I have to do this for my paid job; I would not wish this on those that contribute to the game community as a hobby. (very grateful for their work)

SkOODaT · June 2014

PTS had these changes BUT the saved var bug did not exist on the PTS it was a surprise they stopped using ["@ACCOUNTNAME"] plus they still don't tell you API changes on the PTR ESOUI has had a post going for a week or so now trying to list changes as ppl figure them out

were shooting in the dark

i would really like a API changelog released especially with what changes were made to GetMapPlayerPosition('reticleover')

PTR API Change discussion:
http://www.esoui.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1811

SilverWF · June 2014

emeraldbay wrote: »

The truth of the matter is that major updates include changes to API that addon authors should know about beforehand so they can update efficiently.

Yes!

UrQuan · June 2014

I disagree with this:

emeraldbay wrote: »

API changes are just as important as bug fixes.

Big fixes are more important. I agree with everything else you say, though.

emeraldbay · June 2014

Ur-Quan wrote: »

I disagree with this:

emeraldbay wrote: »

API changes are just as important as bug fixes.

Big fixes are more important. I agree with everything else you say, though.

Fair enough. For people who use and/or develop addons, API changes can be just as game-breaking as bugs, which is the main reason I said that.

Akhratos · June 2014

emeraldbay wrote: »

Ur-Quan wrote: »

I disagree with this:

emeraldbay wrote: »

API changes are just as important as bug fixes.

Big fixes are more important. I agree with everything else you say, though.

Fair enough. For people who use and/or develop addons, API changes can be just as game-breaking as bugs, which is the main reason I said that.

I would say no search field in the guild store or the lack of item comparison tooltips in crafting stations are, indeed, bugs. Or, at the very least, they should be seen that way by the developers when they realize we are playing a 2014 "AAA" mmorpg.

And the list goes and goes on:
Softcapinfo
Cinematic Subtitles
Batman Store Filters
....

Sakiri · June 2014

Blizzard at least notes in their addon forum api changes.

Everyone hates on Blizzard's communication but they at least announce api changes.

UrQuan · June 2014

emeraldbay wrote: »

Ur-Quan wrote: »

I disagree with this:

emeraldbay wrote: »

API changes are just as important as bug fixes.

Big fixes are more important. I agree with everything else you say, though.

Fair enough. For people who use and/or develop addons, API changes can be just as game-breaking as bugs, which is the main reason I said that.

Yes, but everyone uses the base game, while not everyone uses addons. Further, addons are used with the express knowledge that they are not supported by the game publisher. As such, bugs should take priority. Again, though, that one sentence (which really wasn't even close to being your main point) was the only thing you said that I don't agree with. As far as I'm concerned everything else you said is spot on.

SilverWF · June 2014

Archaon wrote: »

emeraldbay wrote: »

Ur-Quan wrote: »

I disagree with this:

emeraldbay wrote: »

API changes are just as important as bug fixes.

Big fixes are more important. I agree with everything else you say, though.

Fair enough. For people who use and/or develop addons, API changes can be just as game-breaking as bugs, which is the main reason I said that.

I would say no search field in the guild store or the lack of item comparison tooltips in crafting stations are, indeed, bugs. Or, at the very least, they should be seen that way by the developers when they realize we are playing a 2014 "AAA" mmorpg.

And the list goes and goes on:
Softcapinfo
Cinematic Subtitles
Batman Store Filters
....

ZrMiniMap (but there is some kind of fix already in comments)
Bank Manager
Harven's XP notify (fixed already)

LunaRae · June 2014

The thing that cheeses me off the most is the legal consent they force you to agree to before using add-ons again. Not our responsibility, use at your own risk. 0 responsibility on Zeni's side... yet this game almost FORCES you to use add-ons. I'm still an add-on virgin, but there's a running list of items I hate the game not having I know add-ons exist to resolve a particular problem. Why should players assume the responsibility of add-ons when this game doesn't even have a functional guild store search. I've worked in jobs where I've been able to find paper copies of legal documents amidst hundreds of thousands of records faster than this games electronic system. Or how about no damage indicators, no way of seeing what buffs/debuffs exist. They basically went minimalist when implementing the game knowing the community would do the work for them, and then throw this in your face. So disgusting

Definitely not a fan of how they went about making this add-on change.

emeraldbay · June 2014

LunaRae wrote: »

The thing that cheeses me off the most is the legal consent they force you to agree to before using add-ons again. Not our responsibility, use at your own risk. 0 responsibility on Zeni's side... yet this game almost FORCES you to use add-ons. I'm still an add-on virgin, but there's a running list of items I hate the game not having I know add-ons exist to resolve a particular problem. Why should players assume the responsibility of add-ons when this game doesn't even have a functional guild store search. I've worked in jobs where I've been able to find paper copies of legal documents amidst hundreds of thousands of records faster than this games electronic system. Or how about no damage indicators, no way of seeing what buffs/debuffs exist. They basically went minimalist when implementing the game knowing the community would do the work for them, and then throw this in your face. So disgusting Definitely not a fan of how they went about making this add-on change.

I think the minimal UI works out in some ways, but I can see why people would want to display more information than they've been given. But arguing my stance on minimalism isn't the point of this thread...

The legal agreement is really something they should've had a long time ago, but it doesn't excuse the lack of communication. It seems like something they added so that people wouldn't complain when addons broke, rather than something they actually felt was necessary.

SkOODaT · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

Blizzard at least notes in their addon forum api changes.

Everyone hates on Blizzard's communication but they at least announce api changes.

Blizzard is looking Extremely organized at this moment LOL and i use to hate thier patch days, ESO brings "patch day" to a new level

Nazon_Katts · June 2014

Add-Ons help tremendously with making a mediocre gaming experience a good one. It's disheartening to see this small, but vital part of our community not receiving the needed attention, especially when it wouldn't take that much of an effort. It's just sad, really.

Drive those people away, and they'll take many more with them.

emeraldbay · June 2014

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Add-Ons help tremendously with making a mediocre gaming experience a good one. It's disheartening to see this small, but vital part of our community not receiving the needed attention, especially when it wouldn't take that much of an effort. It's just sad, really.

Drive those people away, and they'll take many more with them.

Exactly. They're making it increasingly difficult for addon developers to keep up, and at this rate, all but the most determined will just quit (assuming most haven't already).

jeradlub17_ESO · June 2014

emeraldbay wrote: »

Before you say anything, no, I'm not complaining about how this update "ruined all of my addons" or "wiped my settings" or whatever.

The truth of the matter is that major updates include changes to API that addon authors should know about beforehand so they can update efficiently, and subsequently stop people from whining on the forums like we've seen recently.

It can't be that hard to openly discuss the changes in API the same way you discuss bug fixes and class improvements. API changes are just as important as bug fixes. Heck, you don't even have to list API changes every time, because major content patches only happen about once a month so far. Once a month. That's not hard.

It would help tremendously if you could gather your changes together in a nice little page and present them to us the way you do with patch notes. That way, addon authors as well as code-savvy players can be warned beforehand that their addons may break.

Given that Zenimax stated back in beta they were ignoring the UI other than minimalistic implementation with the intention of purposely leaving it to addon authors to build the UI for them, I would say they have an obligation to work with them. When you push off part of the build of your game on the community due to lack of time and resources then you better work with them to make it easier for them to deal with changes. Instead they failed to build a decent UI and now don't want to cooperate with the people they pushed it off on.

Ojustaboo · June 2014

With their new ToS we had to agree to after this patch, they have basically implied they aren't supporting anyone who uses them.

Many players have been unsure about whether to use them or not, Zenimax basically told all those with concerns not to go near them.

A few quotes from the new ToS

ZOS is not responsible for any Add-ons, or the Game if You download and/or use an Add-on; YOU USE THESE AT YOUR OWN RISK;

ZOS will not provide customer support on any Add-ons or Your Game product if You download and/or use an Add-on. Disable all Add-ons prior to contacting Customer Service;

Your Game may not function properly as a result of downloading and/or using Add-ons.

Any Add-ons and/or files that appear to be Add-ons that You download could contain malicious code that could affect Your system. ZOS is not responsible for any such malicious code or the performance of Your system as a result of such malicious code

emeraldbay · June 2014

Ojustaboo wrote: »

With their new ToS we had to agree to after this patch, they have basically implied they aren't supporting anyone who uses them.

Many players have been unsure about whether to use them or not, Zenimax basically told all those with concerns not to go near them.

A few quotes from the new ToS

*snip*
ZOS is not responsible for any Add-ons, or the Game if You download and/or use an Add-on; YOU USE THESE AT YOUR OWN RISK;

ZOS will not provide customer support on any Add-ons or Your Game product if You download and/or use an Add-on. Disable all Add-ons prior to contacting Customer Service;

Your Game may not function properly as a result of downloading and/or using Add-ons.

Any Add-ons and/or files that appear to be Add-ons that You download could contain malicious code that could affect Your system. ZOS is not responsible for any such malicious code or the performance of Your system as a result of such malicious code

I haven't had a chance to play the game since the patch (running on a capped internet service), but that hardly sounds friendly. Not only do they say "we aren't responsible", but they go so far as to point out that they won't help you in the event that you have an issue. I fail to see that as anything less than lazy and a bit elitist ("don't use addons- our UI is perfect as it is, no one does it better than us", if you choose to read it that way).

OkieDokie · June 2014

Anyone else having problems with azurah after the patch?

Sakiri · June 2014

<blockquote class="Quote">
<div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/1854320/SkOODaT">SkOODaT</a> said:</div>
<div class="QuoteText">
<blockquote class="UserQuote">
<div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/241841/Sakiri">Sakiri</a> wrote: <a href="/discussion/comment/1037503#Comment_1037503" class="QuoteLink"><span class="ArrowLink">»</span></a></div>
<div class="QuoteText">Blizzard at least notes in their addon forum api changes.<br />
<br />
Everyone hates on Blizzard's communication but they at least announce api changes.</div>
</blockquote>
<br />
Blizzard is looking Extremely organized at this moment LOL and i use to hate thier patch days, ESO brings "patch day" to a new level</div>
</blockquote>

I really didnt want to play WoD either but the way this game is headed...

twev · June 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes these API changes were available on PTS since day one. More than 3 weeks now.

I do not understand the mentality of the complains, chase your MOD developer, not ZoS.

Add-on developers are volunteers who do what they do for love of the game.
With the way they and their work is being treated, a lot of them have been and increasingly are questioning their love of the game anymore.

A lot of add-on developers have already quit, there are more about to, and there aren't many new ones willing to replace them to start from scratch.

Chasing an add-ond developer who gets fed up is pointless... they aint there anymore, you're chasing smoke.

And the lack of knowledge of add-ons that enhance the game is why some people dropped subs in the first month or so. Add-on updates being abandoned will cause some others to leave, too.

Some of us find the game 'just another game' without certain add-ons filling the gap, and we can (and will) just go find games we enjoy more.

emeraldbay · June 2014

twev wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes these API changes were available on PTS since day one. More than 3 weeks now.

I do not understand the mentality of the complains, chase your MOD developer, not ZoS.

Add-on developers are volunteers who do what they do for love of the game.
With the way they and their work is being treated, a lot of them have been and increasingly are questioning their love of the game anymore.

A lot of add-on developers have already quit, there are more about to, and there aren't many new ones willing to replace them to start from scratch.

Chasing an add-ond developer who gets fed up is pointless... they aint there anymore, you're chasing smoke.

And the lack of knowledge of add-ons that enhance the game is why some people dropped subs in the first month or so. Add-on updates being abandoned will cause some others to leave, too.

Some of us find the game 'just another game' without certain add-ons filling the gap, and we can (and will) just go find games we enjoy more.

Precisely. No working addons means we all have to live with Zenimax's minimalist UI. While I don't have any particular problem with it (I use addons mostly for cosmetic changes rather than to clog my immersion with extra info I don't personally care about), I know there are some people who want much more than they've given us, and if they can't get that, they'll surely leave.

Addon developers will get fed up with not knowing what to fix or when and how to fix it, and will eventually give up as well.

Zenimax made the choice to not only allow addons, but to support their use and development, and they should stick to that.

daemonios · June 2014

jeradlub17_ESO wrote: »

Given that Zenimax stated back in beta they were ignoring the UI other than minimalistic implementation with the intention of purposely leaving it to addon authors to build the UI for them, I would say they have an obligation to work with them. When you push off part of the build of your game on the community due to lack of time and resources then you better work with them to make it easier for them to deal with changes. Instead they failed to build a decent UI and now don't want to cooperate with the people they pushed it off on.

This for me has been the most insightful comment regarding add-ons since the patch. If it is true that ZOS, AS A MATTER OF POLICY, chose to delegate UI development to add-on developers, they are at least morally obligated to collaborate with them in good faith.

I started out with a distrust of add-ons due to my experience with other MMOs (e.g. abandoned add-ons that I'd started to rely on). Eventually I caved in and installed about half a dozen. Some of these I seriously don't think I could live without anymore, including SousChef, Craft Research Timer, Research Assistant Guild Search Extended and Advanced Filters.

The base UI is so lacking that if ZOS, willfully or through neglect, drive away the developers of these or equivalent add-ons, I suspect I won't be playing the game much longer. This isn't a rant or a whine. Just a statement of fact.

dynamite7673b14_ESO · June 2014

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Yes these API changes were available on PTS since day one. More than 3 weeks now.

I do not understand the mentality of the complains, chase your MOD developer, not ZoS.

I do not make addons because I do not have the time but I can answer your question. It's ZOSs job to make the game they should make it easier for the addon developers to do the things with the UI that ZOS is too lazy to do.