Racials and Game Balance - Let us Choose

Malmai · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Blizzard seems to be getting it these days: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11913971864

Some racials in WoW has always caused people to play those races (min maxing) to gain the most out of their character. Specifically, trolls being the best pick to play as hunter (orcs second best). For the alliance side you have Draenai and Worgen, but overall Trolls are the best due to haste being such an important stat for hunters in MoP.

I see the same happening here in ESO and I think it's time you re-evaluate your current setup to keep the game balanced on all three sides. What you can do is let us choose what racials (call them perks instead) we want at character creation, and a new game mechanic similar to the respec feature. This way it'll be easier to level up new skills (heavy, light, medium, bow ext) by allowing us to pick and choose for certain needs.

Another great example is changing from a spell caster to a melee build. As you probably know everyone / zos, the total amount of physical crit (unbuffed) is incredibly lower than as a caster. So what would the most logical thing to do? Reroll a khajit after spending hours upon hours leveling your character to VR+, just to get the physical crit racial? I don't think so.

Very poor poll...

FrauPerchta · June 2014

Racials are part of playing an RPG. They have been around since the beginning. Be glad that ESO's Racial system is at Kindergarten level rather than the way many games do with complex attributes and actually assign base racial Strength, Health, Stamina, Intelligence, Concentration, Agility, etc, etc. Those games Racials mean a lot, in ESO by end game them mean little to nothing.

Malmai · June 2014

Well if you read you know this topic is selfish.

quote: Reroll a khajit after spending hours upon hours leveling your character to VR+, just to get the physical crit racial? I don't think so.

i think so

dafraorb16_ESO · June 2014

hey OP with a khajiti racial you will still bad.
min/maxers should stop ruin this game

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

dafraorb16_ESO wrote: »

hey OP with a khajiti racial you will still bad.
min/maxers should stop ruin this game

min maxing won't ruin the game if everyone has access to the passives and or can change it with a respec. anyways, i don't think my "radical" idea will see the day of light, but one can hope (i guess?).

Mordria · June 2014

I gave you 1 LOL

HairyFairy · June 2014

I chose a dark elf, not because they are the best race, because they probably aren't. But because i thought that having fire resistance, in a world of *** fire! i.e daedra, would be nice to have! haha

Digiman · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Blizzard seems to be getting it these days: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11913971864

Some racials in WoW has always caused people to play those races (min maxing) to gain the most out of their character. Specifically, trolls being the best pick to play as hunter (orcs second best). For the alliance side you have Draenai and Worgen, but overall Trolls are the best due to haste being such an important stat for hunters in MoP.

I see the same happening here in ESO and I think it's time you re-evaluate your current setup to keep the game balanced on all three sides. What you can do is let us choose what racials (call them perks instead) we want at character creation, and a new game mechanic similar to the respec feature. This way it'll be easier to level up new skills (heavy, light, medium, bow ext) by allowing us to pick and choose for certain needs.

Another great example is changing from a spell caster to a melee build. As you probably know everyone / zos, the total amount of physical crit (unbuffed) is incredibly lower than as a caster. So what would the most logical thing to do? Reroll a khajit after spending hours upon hours leveling your character to VR+, just to get the physical crit racial? I don't think so.

Okay first off the WoW racials are base while ESO racials require skill points and you increasing the racial leveling to be able to purchase them. Secondly you argument falls on only those who choose to use min/maxing methods for the game. The racials in this game aren't game breaking and they certainly aren't gonna cost you an arena match. Which WoW seems to base their racial balancing on.

Basically, if the racials on your character aren't worth it for your class then don't invest skill points in them.

LtCrunch · June 2014

The racial passives are what they are for a reason, they give each race an identity that aligns with the racial traits they have had throughout the TES series. I don't want to see them changing this just because min/maxers can't bring themselves to pick a race they like the look of because it's passives aren't up to snuff. Pick the race you want, base it off min/maxing OR just simple preference. If they give people the option to do both and choose their passives races lose their flavor.

Not to mention it helps a lot in PVP being able to identify a player's playstyle by their race(generally). If you see a Khajiit it's probably a melee build, a dunmer is probably a pyromancer or vampire, etc.

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

Digiman wrote: »

Okay first off the WoW racials are base while ESO racials require skill points and you increasing the racial leveling to be able to purchase them. Secondly you argument falls on only those who choose to use min/maxing methods for the game. The racials in this game aren't game breaking and they certainly aren't gonna cost you an arena match. Which WoW seems to base their racial balancing on.

Blizzard is removing (and replacing them with something else less game breaking) key racials BECAUSE it caused problems for people who didn't choose said x race.

Digiman wrote: »

Basically, if the racials on your character aren't worth it for your class then don't invest skill points in them.

Which means you will fall behind compared to another race. Let's say you picked a Argonian sorcerer. Comparing that to a breton, high elf or kahjiit you'll clearly be at a disadvantage.

Sakiri · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Seems like a struck a nerve. I must be doing something right, then. You people have come up with no sound arguments why I'm wrong, all I'm seeing is lore related stuff which really doesn't matter when it comes to balancing factions. If you think it is bull just look at how much AD owns in Cyr.

So basically you want DC and EP to have the same racials because you think it'll magically make PvP better for them?

Nothing to see here folks.

LtCrunch · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Seems like a struck a nerve. I must be doing something right, then. You people have come up with no sound arguments why I'm wrong, all I'm seeing is lore related stuff which really doesn't matter when it comes to balancing factions. If you think it is bull just look at how much AD owns in Cyr.

Not sure which campaign you're on but on Wabba AD is lagging pretty far behind both EP and DC....

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Seems like a struck a nerve. I must be doing something right, then. You people have come up with no sound arguments why I'm wrong, all I'm seeing is lore related stuff which really doesn't matter when it comes to balancing factions. If you think it is bull just look at how much AD owns in Cyr.

So basically you want DC and EP to have the same racials because you think it'll magically make PvP better for them?

Nothing to see here folks.

Can you sit there and say that EP racials are superior to DC or AD with a straight face?

Sakiri · June 2014

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

You are wrong.

I could now reply with "AM NOT! NYER NYER PANTS ON FIRE!" and, simply by doing this, would vastly improve the level of discussion that you seem to aim for.

You are actually wrong.

That's why they're reworking racials.

Currently there's a high bias towards Horde for PvE and Alliance for PvP.

Humans don't need to equip a PvP trinket, and thus can stick a DPS or healing one in there.

Trolls get a built in haste and Orcs get built in AP/SP, which tends to lead to a lot of trolls and to a lesser degree orcs in top end raid guilds.

If you were min/maxing to the fullest, you were those options for those reasons. No questions asked.

Sakiri · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Roleplaying games (of which, WoW is only barely) do have some hard choices in them. It's part of the allure to many. Character creation, backstory evolution, and curbing the story to your choices ... all have a huge impact.

Roleplaying games are also prone to min-maxers, a group of player I personally feel ruin the atmosphere of the game itself. And if the game has competitive elements (either with PvP on rare occasion, or more commonly in PvE-related competition like Trials or Raids), all end-game players become min-maxers to some degree.

The logical argument against racial bonuses, is the question if it really a choice to choose cake or death? Can a player choose to go medium or heavy armor, knowing light synergizes better and results in a 'better' character? Does choosing the wrong gear or weapon combo mean you will constantly do worse than others?

The logical argument for racial bonuses, is that player identity and individualism is one of the founding blocks of RPGs since the very beginning. Our ability to choose and evolve dictates our end result of fun and entertainment.

Personally, I will always choose the race I like, over the passives that race has. But I can understand why many simply do not have the ability to choose to be less. That's why I like games that randomize certain elements, or rulesets that make you choose a penalty feature for every racial bonus you get, forcing you to make something 'less than ideal'.

Because it's the imperfections that make us human.

We in my Pathfinder game call it "Munchkining" after the card game Munchkin, where blackmailing, cheating(and not getting caught), and in general being a jackhole to each other is encouraged.

Our barbarian multiclass(cant remember her exact build) was so finely tuned that when my DM ran her through a combat sim with the final boss of our campaign(demon lord Deskari) and she beat him... alone mind you... IN A ROUND AND A HALF. 9 bloody seconds.

Yeah. Min/maxing.

My next-to-last group I got to play in, I decided to min-max a 4e Barbarian.

I was literally finishing encounters before other players got to act, due to high initiative and multiple attacks per round. He was a blast, but in the same breath, he took the fun from everyone else at the table.

Next game I was just a regular rogue who was focused on roleplay and skill challenges.

Pathfinder is based off 3.5 with some tweaks.

Her initiative wasn't very good(high str, dex affects initiative) but once she entered combat, it was dead. No questions asked. 7 attacks, Foebiter, bonuses out the butt, plus a trample(she had a bunch of demonic implants, was a quest related thing. Rolled high on the die and ended up replacing skin, horns, both feet and both arms....). attacking demons? Yeah. Wrath of the Righteous is nothing *but* demons.

My last game, our DM threw a single Mythic level in at the end. Due to plot, he gave the players a bunch of super charged bonuses. My 20 draconic bloodline sorceress got both boreal and draconic bloodlines. All of my spells were coldfire.

Result? Immune to fire, cold, sleep, paralysis, charm, sneak attacks, critical hits. My dragon was the crag linnorm and energy type was fire.

Power of Wyrms (Su): At 20th level, your draconic heritage becomes manifest. You gain immunity to paralysis, sleep, and damage of your energy type. You also gain blindsense 60 feet.

Child of Ancient Winters (Su): At 20th level, You gain the cold subtype and you become immune to fatigue and exhaustion. In addition, you gain immunity to sneak attacks and critical hits. This power causes you to gain vulnerability to fire.

Vulnerability to fire is negated by immunity to fire.

I'm also now the queen of Irrisen. >.>

Sakiri · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Seems like a struck a nerve. I must be doing something right, then. You people have come up with no sound arguments why I'm wrong, all I'm seeing is lore related stuff which really doesn't matter when it comes to balancing factions. If you think it is bull just look at how much AD owns in Cyr.

So basically you want DC and EP to have the same racials because you think it'll magically make PvP better for them?

Nothing to see here folks.

Can you sit there and say that EP racials are superior to DC or AD with a straight face?

Dark elf DK.

All I have to say here.

No run along.

Prince_Edward · June 2014

Csub wrote: »

Error 404: suitable option for poll not found.

I often find myself in this same situation at bars sometimes.....

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Seems like a struck a nerve. I must be doing something right, then. You people have come up with no sound arguments why I'm wrong, all I'm seeing is lore related stuff which really doesn't matter when it comes to balancing factions. If you think it is bull just look at how much AD owns in Cyr.

So basically you want DC and EP to have the same racials because you think it'll magically make PvP better for them?

Nothing to see here folks.

Can you sit there and say that EP racials are superior to DC or AD with a straight face?

Dark elf DK.

All I have to say here.

No run along.

so 1 out of 3

dark elfs only being effective for DK's.

run along now.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Which means you will fall behind compared to another race. Let's say you picked a Argonian sorcerer. Comparing that to a breton, high elf or kahjiit you'll clearly be at a disadvantage.

No, not clearly, the way you play will affect the outcome more that the racials.
The Racials are a relatively minor effect, seriously look at them, apart from the Imperal they are all 2-3%, your enchantments will have a bigger effect.

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Which means you will fall behind compared to another race. Let's say you picked a Argonian sorcerer. Comparing that to a breton, high elf or kahjiit you'll clearly be at a disadvantage.

No, not clearly, the way you play will affect the outcome more that the racials.
The Racials are a relatively minor effect, seriously look at them, apart from the Imperal they are all 2-3%, your enchantments will have a bigger effect.

Enchants only go so far. Armor enchants are all hp/mp/sta. There are only 3 enchant slots for stats that really changes gameplay so yes, racials DO help.

Racials like:

Magicka Mastery: 3% magicka cost reduction (really good, can replace seducer set bonus for something else)

Spell Resistance: 300 spell resistance at vr2 (idk about vr12)

Gift of Magus: 10% more magicka

Carnage: 6% melee crit.

Spell Charge: 9% increased magicka regen in combat.

Also, I would say that the racials Imps get are some of the least attractive atm unless you only want to play as tank.