Why so much hate? ... Seriously

Skraticus · June 2014

I really, honestly, truly, don't get it at all. I'll be honest, this is my first time playing an MMO in both Beta and Day 1 of Release, so maybe bashing an MMO in its baby years is the norm. The only other "major" MMO I've played was Final Fantasy XI, and it was after it'd been out for a few years, so much had already been established, fixed, tuned, what have you. But, that being said, the only thing people ever complained about was that they didn't have enough time to play it.

But in this ... the forums are littered with people whining, complaining, crying, and 90% of the time it's about something stupid, like the company not showing off their sale numbers ...

Then when I'm playing the game, /zone chat is just flooded with people doing the same thing. "I don't like this, I don't like that, I could do a better job, blah blah". I have 2 tabs in my chat box, one of them is the standard one you get that lets everything in, the second one is one I made that lets everything but /zone chat come in...and that tab is what I use most of the time, but I hate missing out on stuff that people are trying to sell or asking for help with...maybe they should add a for sale channel.

But my question is, why does this game get soooo much hate? I've never, in my whole life of 27 years, seen so many people just outright *** about nothing and act like a toddler left at day care whose momma never came back to get them. Can somebody shed some light on this for me? I understand some things in the game are "broken", but I've enough sense to know it's still new and work is being done. Probably more work would be done if they weren't having to swim through a sea of hate mail written by turd stained nitwits living in the basement.

Oh, and the trolls ... never seen so many in one game before either. I tried to sell a Primal Motif once in /zone chat, I told them to PST an offer ... never again. Seriously, this was how ONE conversation went.

Troll: 100g
Me: .... dude
Troll: Fine, 300g
I don't respond, just ignore. He pipes in again a couple minutes later.
Troll: What? It's like, the worst looking armor in the game. It's a good deal.

So really, why buy it? I don't understand it, and everybody in the zone was doing the same thing. Somebody honestly ended up wanting it though and traded with me for an Ancient Elf. I would have hugged them in tears if I could have.

Mablung · June 2014

You are all over the place. If you cannot grasp the concept of why people feel passionately and express themselves in an unseemly manner over a video game then you should go read a book.

MMO forums are not for the feint of heart. Especially if this is your first time. It always hurts the first time.

raudfsfolley · June 2014

Some of it boils down to the fact that people want to love this game. This was suppose to be the multi-player version of the Elder Scroll games that we'd been hoping for, some of us for years. And for one reason or another, it doesn't quite live up to that. Disappointment makes for bitter people.

Some are just being trolls. You'll find that in every MMO. It doesn't matter if you give them exactly what they want, they'll never be happy, because happy gives them nothing to complain about.

TieFighter · June 2014

https://youtube.com/watch?v=PLs9bawidDY

vyal · June 2014

Why so much hate?

Missed potential.

It could be SO much better, and is not, for no good reason.

Endolith · June 2014

Anyone who really dislikes the game and has little enough of a life that they're still hanging around the forums to bash it is a troll. It's not hard to distinguish them from people who enjoy the game but have constructive criticism.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO · June 2014

Skraticus wrote: »

Oh, and the trolls ... never seen so many in one game before either. I tried to sell a Primal Motif once in /zone chat, I told them to PST an offer ... never again. Seriously, this was how ONE conversation went.

Troll: 100g
Me: .... dude
Troll: Fine, 300g
I don't respond, just ignore. He pipes in again a couple minutes later.
Troll: What? It's like, the worst looking armor in the game. It's a good deal.

So really, why buy it? I don't understand it, and everybody in the zone was doing the same thing. Somebody honestly ended up wanting it though and traded with me for an Ancient Elf. I would have hugged them in tears if I could have.

I learned after years of MMO trading to always state your price up front, if they want to haggle that's fine but it dissuades fail trolls.

Your observations and conclusions are correct and I believe it is due to a huge entitlement mentality that is plaguing Western civilization in general but actually pervading to other countries as well, like down under.

Buncha cry babies, just call them out and ignore them.

Blackwidow · June 2014

Skraticus wrote: »

Why so much hate? ... Seriously

First, complaining about a game is not hate. So, it would be nice if people would stop putting it that way.

It is love for a game that has some of the player base frustrated. It is the desire to make the game better that drives us to shine a light on the bad parts of the game.

Please understand that.

But in this ... the forums are littered with people whining, complaining, crying, and 90% of the time it's about something stupid,

I agree. People should stop attacking posters who have a problem with the game.

That is what you meant, right?

Troll: 100g
Me: .... dude
Troll: Fine, 300g
I don't respond, just ignore. He pipes in again a couple minutes later.
Troll: What? It's like, the worst looking armor in the game. It's a good deal.

So really, why buy it? I don't understand it, and everybody in the zone was doing the same thing.

Why did you respond with "dude?"

Did you have an amount you wanted to sell it for? Why not say that price in the /zone chat? or in the response?

If someone makes you an offer and you don't like the price, tell them the price.

Frankly people who don't post a price are trolling to rip off people who don't know the items worth. So, if you want to play that game, be prepared for low ball offers trying to do the same thing to you.

TieFighter · June 2014

the trolls have a strong presence in this game and its a whole different type of troll that's been bred out of captivity of WoW and they LOVE ESO because here people feed them and wash them and clothe them

Skraticus · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

Skraticus wrote: »

Why so much hate? ... Seriously

First, complaining about a game is not hate. So, it would be nice if people would stop putting it that way.

It is love for a game that has some of the player base frustrated. It is the desire to make the game better that drives us to shine a light on the bad parts of the game.

Please understand that.

But in this ... the forums are littered with people whining, complaining, crying, and 90% of the time it's about something stupid,

I agree. People should stop attacking posters who have a problem with the game.

That is what you meant, right?

Someone submitting a report that says "Hey, I think XYZ is broken because ..." is shining light on the "bad" parts of the game. Trolling around in /zone chat saying stuff like "I could code drunk and blindfolded better than these guys can," and just blatantly insulting devs is hate. Or starting up some ridiculous threads doing the same thing, which costs the company resources. I feel sorry for the poor sap who has to monitor these things.

My point was, of all the games I've played and forums I've visited, I've never seen so much crying. They could almost literally give every player 20,000 gold, and people would find a way to complain about that.

And the question was WHY is there such a large amount in ESO.

**EDIT**

TieFighter wrote: »

the trolls have a strong presence in this game and its a whole different type of troll that's been bred out of captivity of WoW and they LOVE ESO because here people feed them and wash them and clothe them

You are dead on the money. Spot on. For the most part, I wish the WoW players would stay in WoW. MOST of them, but not all.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Skraticus wrote: »

But in this ... the forums are littered with people whining, complaining, crying, and 90% of the time it's about something stupid, like the company not showing off their sale numbers ...

If serious balance issues, major VR content problems and hundreds of bugs are stupid, like the company not showing off their sale numbers then your right.

I don't see much hate at all and little in the way of trolling, I do however see people with legitimate problems letting out their frustration. But then that's probably hate and trolling to you.

Bahk · June 2014

I've written this across many forums and I think it would be some justice for this topic as well

First off I would like to say this is very much an opinionated post, and will include a lot of bias toward the subject. After reading much about how people feel towards ESO and the problems that have ultimately ran people away, I feel I have a good enough grasp of other’s ideas to generalize what the major problems are for most people. Remember its only a generalization. It comes down to one of two things, and let me reiterate, I say most people, most of the people that have left or are considering it. Obviously, there are exceptions.
***
ESO isn’t MMO enough for huge MMO enthusiasts, there isn’t nearly enough group play, granted that there are plenty of opportunities for it, for some reason people just don’t get together and do the things we all love to do.
ESO isn’t Elder Scrolls enough for huge ES enthusiasts, I’ve seen it said many times over already that ESO just doesn’t have enough ES feels to it, and of course it won’t, you can’t fit the singleplayer style game into a MMO, at least not easily.
I’ll restate what I said in a previous post about how too many expectations were unmet, resulting in bitterness and bad reviews, hence the current state of ESO, whatever that may be.

The Dilemma
Before the release of ESO, there was a lot of hype about the game, but I don’t think people really considered how the game would be structured, in terms of being a MMO. A lot of what saw, people were expecting this to be somewhat of a Skyrim 2.0 where you could just run around doing things you did in Skyrim, but with other people. Evidently, that’s not what ESO turned out to be. Not to mention the subscription fee, with current trending F2P style MMOs releasing, it certainly weakened the image of ESO.

Now let’s go more into what the content has to offer. A great deal of the content can be solo’d, aside from the occasional dungeon, its pretty much a solo game, which causes lots of problems for your hardcore MMO player. It seems MMOs are all about raids and teamwork, and ESO doesn’t provide much of that at all in the zones before reaching VR10-VR12 in Craglorn. Even, then, the Trials are such a challenge its almost impossible to find a pick up group that’s able to complete it, and that’s where it conflicts with the average player, not everyone is apart of a guild hardcore enough, or even structured enough to coordinate such an event. It all comes down to the game not providing enough grouping chances that are rewarding.

For your hardcore ES veterans, the game isn’t open ended enough, so it seems. In older ES games there was a lot of player interaction, it actually held meaning, For example, in Oblivion, players had the ability to interact with NPCs on a more personal level per se. Also known as Speechcraft, it gave a player the ability to sway NPCs to their own will, reducing the price of an item when buying from a merchant is one example. Something like this gives people more control over what is happening, and more “voice” to their character, which ESO certainly lacks. So to reduce this, ESO does not provide enough player interaction and voice as older games did.
***
Certainly, bug, bots, and exploits factored into why people left, but (incoming biased opinion) leaving on account of those reasons is a very poor excuse to leave in my opinion. All of these can and will be fixed over time, hopefully in a timely manner, but ZOS employees are only human.

I for one love this game and what it has to offer, yes there are hiccups in the game, no it doesn’t fit your MMO description, no it doesn’t fit your classic ES game description, but put that aside and the game has a lot to offer players. There is so much more to say about why people have left or are leaving the game (PvP), but you guys would be reading a book at that point. It saddens me to see people leave but it is what it is. I didn’t write this post to step on any toes and I apologize ahead of time if I have, anything written here is all opinion and anything offense is due to my ignorance, so again I apologize ahead of time.

TL:DR - The game isn't ES enough for some nor is it MMO enough for some. There's so much hate because people didn't get what they expected/wanted and proceeded to diss the game, on top of that there are many things that are not balanced enough and there are too many bugs.

Like I said I love the game and will stand by it for as long as I can.

Blackwidow · June 2014

Skraticus wrote: »

Someone submitting a report that says "Hey, I think XYZ is broken because ..." is shining light on the "bad" parts of the game. Trolling around in /zone chat saying stuff like "I could code drunk and blindfolded better than these guys can," and just blatantly insulting devs is hate. Or starting up some ridiculous threads doing the same thing, which costs the company resources.

You actual example was--"I don't like this, I don't like that, I could do a better job, blah blah"

So, you don't think people have the right to say they don't like something?

Look, you want to make a post about people who complain, you might want to watch how you word stuff, or you just come across as a person looking for a fight.

Just FYI. Take my advice or not.

Also, if someone does post a really crappy no nonsense thread, just walk away. Don't post on it. That is how the forums turn bad.

I feel sorry for the poor sap who has to monitor these things.

It would be easier if all these posts were about the actual game and not about posters.

My point was, of all the games I've played and forums I've visited, I've never seen so much crying.

This is a "pot meets kettle" situation. I would just let it go and not worry about posters who rant and make you upset.

They could almost literally give every player 20,000 gold, and people would find a way to complain about that.

See, this is what we call hyperbole. It does not help your case.

Have a nice day.

badmojo · June 2014

Maybe they're disillusioned about the effect their comments actually have on the development of this game. Perhaps they think if they are negative enough the developers will change the game accordingly.

There's also the trolls who probably find arguing on forums and zone chat more fun than the actual game. Normally their trolling falls on deaf ears, but this game being pay 2 play means that there are a lot of people who actually like the game and are willing to argue back.

It's fine for the most part, but gets really annoying when the same debates eventually derail just about every discussion.

Spiritreaver_ESO · June 2014

@ the OP,

Others above my post have pretty much said anything i would to your question, so i''ll just move on to 'Shame on you!'

I kid. But as one FFXI vet to another know how ridiculous that particular segment of MMO fandom could be. Or maybe it was just my server, but the worst stuff i've seen on the forums here or ingame pales to FFXI ingame or the Allahkahzam forums =10.

You know what i'm saying...

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

Skraticus wrote: »

I really, honestly, truly, don't get it at all. I'll be honest, this is my first time playing an MMO in both Beta and Day 1 of Release, so maybe bashing an MMO in its baby years is the norm. The only other "major" MMO I've played was Final Fantasy XI, and it was after it'd been out for a few years, so much had already been established, fixed, tuned, what have you. But, that being said, the only thing people ever complained about was that they didn't have enough time to play it.

The FFXI community is from an earlier age. I've played it since the EU release in '05 and there's little similarity in the way players behave there and here, or indeed there and most other MMOs I play.

However, there was no official Square Enix forums till only a few years ago so there was no equivalent site to this one where there was expectation that the developers would get to see what's said.

IMO this is the reason most 'official' forums are toxic, people are scared that if the 'other side' wins the argument they'll get their way and you don't get yours .. it's pretty juvenile, yes, but I'm sure that's a big part of it.

Blackwidow · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

Maybe they're disillusioned about the effect their comments actually have on the development of this game. Perhaps they think if they are negative enough the developers will change the game accordingly.

Negative. Always with that word.

BTW, the game has changed when enough people put forth their opinion on a subject, which is why people who claim the game is perfect is actually negatively effecting the game.

Hilgara · June 2014

Nothing beats the cut and thrust of reasoned debate. Actually this is probably the most mature forum I have ever used. The arguments are expressed passionately but mostly without resorting to insults. The few that do I just ignore.

Mablung · June 2014

badmojo wrote: »

Maybe they're disillusioned about the effect their comments actually have on the development of this game. Perhaps they think if they are negative enough the developers will change the game accordingly.

Why is it when someone posts reasons for leaving, issues with the game, personal views on gaming experience, it is labeled as a negative post or the poster is whining?

Posters like you who resort to labeling/name calling and jumping to conclusions about the poster are what is poisoning these forums. Feedback is essential to game development, good or bad. Attacks on that feedback or the individual are not.

Gilvoth · June 2014

raudfsfolley wrote: »

Some of it boils down to the fact that people want to love this game. This was suppose to be the multi-player version of the Elder Scroll games that we'd been hoping for, some of us for years. And for one reason or another, it doesn't quite live up to that. Disappointment makes for bitter people.

this describes me, as i waited and wanted elderscrolls online since morrowind around the year 2001 and when i heard about eso i knew i would love it and all i could see was morrowind.
now, i will admit there is many things that are similar to morrowind in eso, that list is not very big. infact they did not even include Vvardenfell, proper assassin class, nor even the proper dark brotherhood and thieves guild. this has set me blindsided as i bought a new PC and did a whole lot of preperation for eso in many many ways and spent a lot of money for my own forums and ventrillo. but, it was allways said,
"you get out of an mmo what you put into it"
well i put all i had into eso and plan to continue to do so but from what ive experianced and seen so far i admit i am bitter.

happened to me in eso

TheGuruDude · June 2014

Rick people problems. Isn't it nice to have the ability to play this game? As for the trolls, let them have freedom of speech. If you let them get you down, it's your problem because they do what they do. We all have opinions and wants and desires. Some are childish while others are mature but in the end it's all rich people problems. Most of the world doesn't have this game. I am grateful I do and am looking forward to it's evolution as a game.

Butcherboy · June 2014

This is the new normal for MMO forums. You get used to it. Sometimes the complaints are valid, sometimes the whining is epic. Until we return to the days of active 24/7 moderation, you should temper your expectations to this behavior.

Conifur · June 2014

Why so much hate? Because this game has not at all lived up to expectations and cost. This game is not an MMO unless you PvP - heck there are large parts of it that force you to be solo - how is that an MMO? They say they want you to try different things, don't be cookie cutter - then when you do try different things it cost you an arm and a leg to change. Storage is a pain in this game, not an issue in other ES games, and they don't care. This game and ZOS are still in BETA - they just won't admit it.

serenity_painted · June 2014

When you start messing with a beloved franchise it's fans tend to get pissed. Instead of trying to make a multiplayer TES game that still is distinctly TES they just mashed superficial TES elements and standard MMO tropes togher, copied the style of the quests from the single player games, sprinkled some PvP over it, called it a game and hoped people would like it.
It's made by people who don't really get TES or what people like about the series so it only really appeals to some MMO fans and TES fans who play the single player games in a simillar or even the same way, but they're only a fragment of a large group.

It's not bad, some stuff like the skill system and crafting is great but it just tries to please too many people and ends up beeing a pretty mediocre experience for alot of people.
TESO had some huge shoes to fill and it just dosen't cut it, i wouldn't be surprised if the game had done better if it was completely unrelated to TES.

The VR thing dosen't help either. Let's face it, it's a last second addition beacuse they realized 1-50 was far too short, threw together the VR system to stretch the game but didn't have time to test it. So now leveling is all over the place, some are leveling too slow not beeing able to keep up with the content and some beeing far above it and the difficulty curve going from regular to VR isn't exactly smooth.
Now the game is also far too long so you have people who otherwise loved the 1-50 stuff getting discouraged and bored,
They invested alot of time in the game, had fun and are now pissed that the game they loved acouple of days ago has turned into a giant snoozefest.

I was stoked for VR levels before i got there, worst part for me is that they're not even that much more difficult in an interesting way, they're just more unforgiving so they just end up limiting the ammount of builds avalible to you.
I play a sorc with destro staff and i find the VR6+ levels just as easy as the 1-50content simply beacuse the build is so good, if the enemies were more relentless with specials or use more tactics, rolled out of CC etc rather than just got an increase to hp and damage that would be alot more fun. For me anyway.

jazon1972_ESO · June 2014

isn't complaining about people who complain just making you the same as the players you are hating on?

while this game is fun and i loved all the TES games and have always wanted one to be online,my biggest gripe about it is that it looks like a TES game but dose not feel anything like one of them,,in all TES games the higher level you get to the more powerful you feel in this game the higher level you get the weaker you feel,the classes are all unbalanced,the game is full of bugs some of which do not allow you to even log into the game for days at a time with no refund of time lost..

so sure i can see many reasons to complain when we are talking about paying subs and no even being able to play at times.
like others said a lot of our frustration stems from years of waiting for a TES game to be online and excitement when hearing of one coming and then its released way before it was ready this game should still be in beta with all of its bugs and imbalances,they rushed this out and have now lost most of there subs..so much so it is nearly imposable to run any VET level group content.

xanikk999 · June 2014

Ever heard the phrase "Misery loves company"?

It's quite true. It's how organizations opposing certain laws and injustices prop up. It's what bind groups of people to change things in the real world.

Personally when I'm grumpy I hate to see others happy. Call me what you will but it's basic human nature. Too many examples in real life that prove it.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

Skraticus wrote: »

I really, honestly, truly, don't get it at all. I'll be honest, this is my first time playing an MMO in both Beta and Day 1 of Release, so maybe bashing an MMO in its baby years is the norm. The only other "major" MMO I've played was Final Fantasy XI, and it was after it'd been out for a few years, so much had already been established, fixed, tuned, what have you. But, that being said, the only thing people ever complained about was that they didn't have enough time to play it.

But in this ... the forums are littered with people whining, complaining, crying, and 90% of the time it's about something stupid, like the company not showing off their sale numbers .

Sadly that's normal for MMOs, Swtor has loads of them, even though it's actually a good game.

Here some of the complaints are genuine, with bugs and broken features, and some is the usually self-centred garbage.

poodlemasterb16_ESO · June 2014

That's how modern children operate. Spoiled rotten.

Mine are in their 30s and 40s and missed the complete entitlement, put them in front of the TV, and do anything for peace method of child rearing.

Got to go make an armor set for my son. His Vamp VR1 NB build needs a little health regen love.

Esha76 · June 2014

As far as complaints/criticisms about the game... some are legitimate issues that are brought up in said forums in an attempt to gain enough support to get the devs to pay attention and make changes/fixes the community would like to see. But yes, frequently it quickly turns to insults and hostility. Passion is one thing, spreading negativity for the sake of it is an entirely different thing.

As for hating on the game, every game gets it. The mentality of people today is that "If I don't like it then it clearly sucks and everyone else must hate it too. And if they do like it, then they suck too and they are stooopit. I will tell them so in this forum where I am beast and my word/opinion is better than everyone else's." Hence nasty little forum comments and posts.

As for the trolling other players, again that is nothing new. Many people/gamers are generally vicious nasty little beings that compensate for low self esteems and inferiority complexes through coming to forums and zone chats in an attempt to insult and get others worked up in order to feel better about themselves.

Also, a study was done recently on Internet Trolls overall. The researchers found that the vast majority of the tested subjects who "troll" on the Internet show many traditional signs of sadism. So, not always about inferiority complexes, also a lot of people get a thrill out of causing others some degree of irritation and emotional strife. Yes Maximus, they are very entertained.

That and they are complete total cowards who hide behind the anonymity of a screen, keyboard, and gamer handle and can get away with acting pretty much in any manner they wish. However would never speak to a person's face in such ways.

So the short answer is... many people are just horrible, cruel, weak, sick little creatures.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Got to go make an armor set for my son. His Vamp VR1 NB build needs a little health regen love.

Ouch, vampire and nightblade.

angelbless05 · June 2014

Complaining about the complainers is still complaining, so..........?

In all seriousness, you will always run into stuff like this. You just have to be careful with what you perceive as complaining. Sure, people might cry "I could do a better job!" or complain about a company sucking without really offering any solutions, or even just hurl a bunch of insults with no reason posted by them, but for the most part, people will always "complain" when there's an issue with a game. I might not like when someone posts something about an in game issue that I disagree with, but I don't consider it complaining, as I am probably passionate about an issue that they disagree with. It's human nature to want things to be as close to perfect in your own world as possible. No one will ever be able to find the perfect game, so get used to it. Ignore the trolls/non-constructive posts, accept that people are passionate about this game succeeding and want to point out issues, and know that there posts have actually helped change some serious issues that a lot of the community were concerned with.