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Have we been looking at Veteran content all wrong?
Fleymark
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Somehow, like a bolt of lightning, it occurred to me this morning that we've all been looking at vet ranks wrong, possibly. It was when watching the Firor e3 interview earlier...he happily talks about Craglorn grinding while most players have reacted to it with disdain, many considering it an outright exploit.
But roll with me on this...
It seems insane that the end game is this impossible quest grind through "recycled" content as many put it. It seems insane that they allowed craglorn to be entered and exp easily grindable by v1+ players, not just v11 and 12. It seems insane that they will be raising the vet ranks to 15 rather soon (during summer from what some have said) and reportedly to v20 not long after.
All of this sounds crazy unless you consider this...If you forget about the cadwell silver and gold series in rival factions and look only at what was done in Craglorn and assume that the rest of the content will be the same type of thing...fast group levelling with the option to do harder group content...All the way to v20. THAT is actually the exp "superhighway" for most players while the current VR opposing faction zones is optional "icing" content.
Think about it....If you don't craft or only do a trade or two the points available from 1-50 skyshards and quests plus cyrodil are plenty for most builds. You really don't truly need those points or achievements. You might want them, but don't need them.
If you are a completionist, achievement junkie or want dye choices, do every craft or want multiple builds at once, or just want the poption of seeing the other factions on one toon, the more difficult Cadwells silver and gold areas are available to you. But it will be harder to compensate for being optional content. And as far as being empty...since its optional either tough it out alone or bring friends to help.
I've been crabbing about VR like everybody, mostly because people are bailing from it left and right, but if my theory is correct, this insanity could really be quite brilliant.
Those who aren't into challenges and think everything should be available easilyto everybody will have a hard time grasping that buy for those of us who like a challenge and choices with appropriate risk versus reward, that's pretty brilliant.
All of that said, if this is the case, they could have presented it to us in a better way lol.
Edited by Fleymark on June 24, 2014 3:23PM But roll with me on this...
It seems insane that the end game is this impossible quest grind through "recycled" content as many put it. It seems insane that they allowed craglorn to be entered and exp easily grindable by v1+ players, not just v11 and 12. It seems insane that they will be raising the vet ranks to 15 rather soon (during summer from what some have said) and reportedly to v20 not long after.
All of this sounds crazy unless you consider this...If you forget about the cadwell silver and gold series in rival factions and look only at what was done in Craglorn and assume that the rest of the content will be the same type of thing...fast group levelling with the option to do harder group content...All the way to v20. THAT is actually the exp "superhighway" for most players while the current VR opposing faction zones is optional "icing" content.
Think about it....If you don't craft or only do a trade or two the points available from 1-50 skyshards and quests plus cyrodil are plenty for most builds. You really don't truly need those points or achievements. You might want them, but don't need them.
If you are a completionist, achievement junkie or want dye choices, do every craft or want multiple builds at once, or just want the poption of seeing the other factions on one toon, the more difficult Cadwells silver and gold areas are available to you. But it will be harder to compensate for being optional content. And as far as being empty...since its optional either tough it out alone or bring friends to help.
I've been crabbing about VR like everybody, mostly because people are bailing from it left and right, but if my theory is correct, this insanity could really be quite brilliant.
Those who aren't into challenges and think everything should be available easilyto everybody will have a hard time grasping that buy for those of us who like a challenge and choices with appropriate risk versus reward, that's pretty brilliant.
All of that said, if this is the case, they could have presented it to us in a better way lol.
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Fairydragon3✭✭✭✭I always thought of it as how atunement used to work in WOW, you would need to do certain quest to get to certain raids where you pick up your Teir armor. VR rank only determns what armor you can put on, people just need to stop seeing it as I NEED TO DO ALL THESE QUEST TO GET TO MAX LEVEL?! no you don't have to do any of that unless you want to progress in endgame. Technically you could just run vet dungeons over and over until you eventually hit v122 -
RazielSR✭✭✭✭✭True, the whole veteran concept was perfect. It is just some users that didn't understand the meaning of it. Zos did a perfect job and let's hope they add more vet levels or at least more buffed mudcrabs on the shores.Edited by RazielSR on June 24, 2014 3:30PM2 -
ebondeath✭✭✭✭✭It's an interesting concept, but it doesn't leave a whole lot for the people who fall in the middle of those two methods. Then again, I haven't even been to Craglorn yet, so I could be wrong, but that's the impression that I get.╔═════════════⌈Alannah Corvaine⌋══════════════╗
Rise, rise! To freedom, rise! Arise, ye Breton sons and daughters.
Ride, ride! To freedom, ride! Truth and glory to the brave!
╚═════════════⌊VR 12 Breton NB⌉══════════════╝1 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭The only problem with this is that you can't even get in the VR6-10 zones without completing cadwell's silver. So if at V1 you go straight to craglorn you miss something like 150 skyshards and 30 skillpoints from quest rewards and another 10 from group achievments in public dungeons. Ok maybe people just don't need those 90 skillpoints but I think that is quite a lot to miss. The problem with the current setup is because everyone is in craglorn there is pretty much no one in those V1-10 zones so you can't do most of the stuff to even get them unless you talk guildies in to doing them with you. Then you face the issue of being at different phases of quests and some can't even get to some of those zones. By the time you are in the V6-10 zones you pretty much need someone to quest with to even finish the quest line.
I'm ok with them making grinding in craglorn the new way to level but if that is the case they need to ease up the vet level zones and open up the zones without doing cadwell's silver. Honeslty at V1 it was easier for me to solo packs of 6 in craglorn than the packs of 3 in the V1 zone. Something just isn't right with that.3 -
ShADoW0s✭✭✭The only thing you will miss out on if you skip Vr content is currently achievements, which mean nothing, and in the future, dyes, which wont take too long to get, once you know what you need to do to get the one you are after.
A quick run through of all the Vr zones while collecting all the open world skyshards give more than enough points for almost everything. I am currently doing and maxed every craft except Provisioning, while still having more than enough skill points for the combat related stuff.
I really believe that the main problem here, there is no point, unless you are here just for the story. If the devs wanted an alternate way to level, grinding is not on the top of my list. I would rather do meaning full quests, like if Craglorn was released after 50, and the other fraction zones were optional.0 -
Iselin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭There is a more fundamental problem with VR game play: the significantly slower pace of positive reinforcement compared to 1-50 gameplay.
The difference in item quality between ranks is too subtle, there are no new VR-only abilities (just as an example... perhaps morphs of morphs available only at certain VR ranks) to earn and the leveling pace is slow as molasses.
Even with the content exactly as it now exists, the VR experience could be significantly improved with better character advancement and loot rewards as you move through VR levels.
That, IMHO, is the real VR problem.1 -
Eorea✭✭✭The only thing VR content is good for right now for me is being able to take my characters to different parts of the world for guild roleplay- be that for an invasion or simply because Auridon is 100 times more pretty than anything offered to the Pact. Not that I'll get to Auridon any time soon (Pact starts in Glenumbra at VR1)... because I'm not grinding through VR ranks for reasons I put in another thread concerning questline spoilers and alts.
But, of course, I'm here for the content, sandbox and group roleplay, not for the "challenge" or "gearing" or "gameplay (used loosely in this context since I have no real problems with it)". I don't want to L2P for veteran content. I know how to play. I just hate insurmountable challenge. The experience is not better (for ME) if I go from 1-50 feeling... reasonable about my experience, then am told that I can continue on at level 1 again and this time, I have to do it in a group or die. No choice. Yes. Veteran content is literally like starting over at level 1 and playing a Zelda-esque hero mode in an unfamiliar land without a choice in the matter. I wish I felt "epic" at any time in this game, but I have not once. Not one single time. When I'm "max" level 50 (VR not withstanding), I should be able to don blues and eff up a whole zone of mobs a few levels under me for looking at me sideways. Don't start with my build. My build is fine. It's exactly what I want, not what I'm being told I should have.
An implemented /tdetect (Skyrim console command to remove mob detection if you) command or Ghost/Observer mode would make this game perfect for me, especially in Cyrodiil. Until then, I'll just enjoy my roleplay adventures and stay at VR1. I'm not going anywhere anyway. I like ESO way too much, despite frustrations. I can stick around easily through the growing pains as long as I have someone to play pretend with.0 -
flintstone✭✭✭I went to Craglorn and it was all VR12's running around? I did try to chat into a group but no takers? Craglorn is NOT VR1 friendly at all..... (I was VR5).
I suppose that if you are a kid and have lots of friends that play this game you will be ok there because you can group up without much problem.
The silver/gold vet content would be fine if there were only a few more people running around..... (mostly it's solo and I don't think thats intended at this point)........I carry 30-40 soul gems at all times.3 -
LariahHunding✭✭✭✭No. We are not looking at it the wrong way.
Another poster enlightened me today to the root problem of VR content.
As the mobs level up, your combat effectiveness goes down, because they level faster than you.
This relates to above poster's comments about rewards, we should be rewarded with things that let's us "level" with mobs.
The tedious grind would be fine if we were rewarded.
We want our food pellet when we pull the level."Give a man a sweet roll, he only has one to steal. Give him a sweet roll recipe, he have bunches to steal."
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fromtesonlineb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Thing is, this is nothing to do with phat lewt, no one's asking for what you're saying, this is a strawman argument.Those who aren't into challenges and think everything should be available easilyto everybody will have a hard time grasping that buy for those of us who like a challenge and choices with appropriate risk versus reward, that's pretty brilliant.
VR is LEVELING content and as such has no reason to be orders of magnitude more of a grind than 1-50 .. that's not how the game was promoted, had it been made plain post-50 is a 1990s group-or-GTFO XP grindfest many wouldn't have touched it with a ten-foot pole.
Edited by fromtesonlineb16_ESO on June 24, 2014 4:17PM2 -
kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭Craglorn just got a difficulty buff. Your superhighway turned into a toll road.
We will see how much difference it makes. People are rolling through things in 12 man groups. If they made it too hard then 4 man groups won't even be able to do it and it will be all zergs. If they made it so difficult 12 man groups have trouble people are just going to quit playing, so I hope they didn't overdo it.
As much as I hate to say it Craglorn is the only reason a lot of people are still around. VR zones are such a drag that people were leaving left and right at least being able to grind to VR12 gives some people that light at the end of the tunnel.1 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭Well, the one hole in my theory is that it's a rather abrupt change to go from solo questing to level to group grinding. People realistically are going expect to keep questing and that's why the silver and gold route is going to seem the way to go. And it was here first. Which is why I'm doing it as opposed to Craglorn. Although I may start mixing in that with some PvP when I get past silver.
By the way, the point of this wasn't to rehash the problems people have with VRs but just to look at what they are presenting us in a different way.Edited by Fleymark on June 24, 2014 4:19PM2 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »
Thing is, this is nothing to do with phat lewt, no one's asking for what you're saying, this is a strawman argument.Those who aren't into challenges and think everything should be available easilyto everybody will have a hard time grasping that buy for those of us who like a challenge and choices with appropriate risk versus reward, that's pretty brilliant.
VR is LEVELING content and as such has no reason to be orders of magnitude more of a grind than 1-50 .. that's not how the game was promoted, had it been made plain post-50 is a 1990s group-or-GTFO XP grindfest many wouldn't have touched it with a ten-foot pole.
I think you are missing my point. I'm not talking about loot. And just because you reject grinding as antiquated or inappropriate gameplay in modern MMOs because you don't like it doesn't mean it is. Or that it's not intended here. There are plenty of things I personally don't like in lots of games, old and new, that are entirely intended.
I'm suggesting that perhaps Cadwell's silver and gold, while the first veteran content, is actually intended to be optional content rather than the primary way to advance thru the vet levels. Hence the difficulty may be warranted since it is optional and yields optional rewards. What's really there? Extra points and achievements. 1-50 and cyrodil offer more than enough points for most builds, assuming your crafting is limited. Achievements are entirely optional.
People have said that Craglorn is comparatively easier than the other VR content. And in the video I mentioned the lead designer seemed perfectly comfortable with craglorn grinding being intended. While we've all been hitching about Craglorn emptying out the other VR zones and "exploits" it is entirely possible that this is what's intended. If you want to do the optional content in the other factions and get achievements and extra points be prepared for a challenge and, being an MMO, be prepared to bring people.
I'm just thinking outside the box and maybe this is all as intended. But it is just a theory...I'm not sure I'm on board with it myself. But I wanted to hear what others thought.Edited by Fleymark on June 24, 2014 4:36PM1 -
Fairydragon3✭✭✭✭The only thing you will miss out on if you skip Vr content is currently achievements, which mean nothing, and in the future, dyes, which wont take too long to get, once you know what you need to do to get the one you are after.
A quick run through of all the Vr zones while collecting all the open world skyshards give more than enough points for almost everything. I am currently doing and maxed every craft except Provisioning, while still having more than enough skill points for the combat related stuff.
I really believe that the main problem here, there is no point, unless you are here just for the story. If the devs wanted an alternate way to level, grinding is not on the top of my list. I would rather do meaning full quests, like if Craglorn was released after 50, and the other fraction zones were optional.
They are technically optional, just have to travel to Mournhold, Elden root, and the DC equivalents to get to Craglorn, the only thing that isnt an option is to go straight to your 2nd VR zone, Technically if you so choose, you never have to go to The other alliance areas to quest, You just will miss out on some skill points0 -
Eorea✭✭✭While I acknowledge and am greatly pleased to see another side of things, if Cadwell's gold and silver content was truly optional, I'd be much less sad. Currently, it isn't (even with Craglorn), but, as I said in my previous post, I'm holding out and playing that content with alts instead. There's a VERY good chance there will be other options offered later. Then I can start slobbering all over the game again like a happy Saint Bernard.0
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kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭If they are going to just move to the Craglorn grind model of VR leveling find, just take away the Cadwell's penalty and let people do all the zones. That way when guildy says he lets go knock out this public dungeon achievment you don't have half the guild saying .. i'm not allowed to travel to that area because I didn't complete the longest quest chain in mmo history.0
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Vivecc✭✭✭For me as an dedicated PvP-Player, all PvE stuff is only the "way" and not the end. I hit Cyrodiil with lvl 10 and i spent at least 2 hours there every day, besides the normal questing from 1-50. After hitting VR1 i made me home in cyro and don´t cared about the other factions. I made it to VR 9 only in cyrodiil. With Craglorn its faster to get VR12, there´s a Story too, but i think most who doing Craglorn just grind it. There´s no need to do Cadwell´s Story, ´cept for the Skillpoints and that only if one wants to max out everything. As the progress there is somewhat slower, its the perfect meeting-point for doing group stuff with friends. That was not the case in 1-50. And one can always do that stuff at any convenient VR rank after VR1, so the difficulty isn´t really a problem.
It all depends on the way one wants to play the game. So, take yer time and have fun,
thx @ Zeni for this great gamepc/eu0 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭If they are going to just move to the Craglorn grind model of VR leveling find, just take away the Cadwell's penalty and let people do all the zones. That way when guildy says he lets go knock out this public dungeon achievment you don't have half the guild saying .. i'm not allowed to travel to that area because I didn't complete the longest quest chain in mmo history.
Well, it's not like they have been particularly adept at handling the practicalities of grouping with the phasing situation anyway. LOL1 -
Erlindur✭✭✭The real reason why Craglorn is v1+ and not v11-12, is the same with the real reason they left the anomaly farming to go on for so long. ZoS has lots of nice people working as devs of various specialties. Their immediate bosses though, are some nice people from marketing. Those mini bosses of marketing have to report to their big bosses of marketing regularly. They do that with their numbers and charts.
When Craglorn came out, if it was only v11-12 content, the real number of people eligible to enter it would have been a tiny percentage of the total population. The charts would have shown it as a huge failure. "We made a nice new area but almost no one goes there. You wasted our money and time with this Craglorn thing.
So, you open it from v1, plus you throw a nice carrot (farming) and you convince everyone to go there. "Look boss, Craglorn is a huge success. People love it. Take a look at this chart. Almost half the population is there daily".
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kitsinni✭✭✭✭✭The real reason why Craglorn is v1+ and not v11-12, is the same with the real reason they left the anomaly farming to go on for so long. ZoS has lots of nice people working as devs of various specialties. Their immediate bosses though, are some nice people from marketing. Those mini bosses of marketing have to report to their big bosses of marketing regularly. They do that with their numbers and charts.
When Craglorn came out, if it was only v11-12 content, the real number of people eligible to enter it would have been a tiny percentage of the total population. The charts would have shown it as a huge failure. "We made a nice new area but almost no one goes there. You wasted our money and time with this Craglorn thing.
So, you open it from v1, plus you throw a nice carrot (farming) and you convince everyone to go there. "Look boss, Craglorn is a huge success. People love it. Take a look at this chart. Almost half the population is there daily".
I think you are almost right. There was a chart and it was shown to a boss but the info was "Doing regular VR zones X amount of people leave a day. Giving them a way to get through it quickly with better loot and less people are leaving every day". Marketing boss says .. don't change it.0 -
Fleymark✭✭✭✭✭The real reason why Craglorn is v1+ and not v11-12, is the same with the real reason they left the anomaly farming to go on for so long. ZoS has lots of nice people working as devs of various specialties. Their immediate bosses though, are some nice people from marketing. Those mini bosses of marketing have to report to their big bosses of marketing regularly. They do that with their numbers and charts.
When Craglorn came out, if it was only v11-12 content, the real number of people eligible to enter it would have been a tiny percentage of the total population. The charts would have shown it as a huge failure. "We made a nice new area but almost no one goes there. You wasted our money and time with this Craglorn thing.
So, you open it from v1, plus you throw a nice carrot (farming) and you convince everyone to go there. "Look boss, Craglorn is a huge success. People love it. Take a look at this chart. Almost half the population is there daily".
Excellent point.1
