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Respec Costs: A Matter of Intent (Not Difficult to Answer)

Maverick827
Maverick827
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I've seen quite a few threads and discussions from these forums, Reddit, Tamriel Foundry, and other fan sites discussing the topic of the cost to respec our character’s skills. Not once have I ever seen any of these discussions receive official replies. You have promised as a company many times to increase communication and transparency with your customers, so I’m making this thread and tagging @ZOS_JessicaFolsom and @ZOS_GinaBruno to see where this goes.

I’m also tagging the person ultimately responsible for the vision of this game (@ZOS_MattFiror‌ though I don’t think he posts here) because this is, as the title suggests, simply a matter of intent. How prohibiting do you intend the respec cost to be? What is your response to the opinions of many of your customers who feel the cost is currently too high?

I find this whole topic and others like it (e.g., design related) particularly annoying because I am an enterprise (or business) software developer and, quite frankly, you guys in the entertainment software business have it good. At least when it comes to design, that is.

To give those who have no idea what the difference between these two worlds are, ask yourself this question: which is easier to write logistically, a book report or a short story? A book report that requires all sorts of research, fact checking, citations, and structure, or a short story that can technically never be wrong and has techniques where you can literally write words as they come to mind as a valid form of narration?

In enterprise software development, there’s all these rules and requirements that, more often than not, come from people who have little to no interest in the actual application that’s being developed. Worse is that said rules and requirements frequently conflict with one another, as various government agencies on different levels (local, state, federal) or different departments in a corporation might have different ways of doing the same business process.

You might be trying to upgrade a paper/manual process to an electronic/automatic processes, for instance, and one guy says he’s done it one way for thirty years (government employees work the same jobs forever) and another guy – who works ten feet away, in the same unit, under the same job title – says he’s been doing it a completely different way for twenty. Whoops! Who do you believe? Which way do you implement the process? Regardless, it’s out of your hands. There is some sort of correct processes that you need to implement and that’s the end of it. It's just a matter of finding that correct process, which isn't always easy.

Developer: “What happens if the person signs up online, but they don’t have a valid license/passport/some other document that this entire processes is based around?”

Architect: “No idea, let’s ask the business analyst.”

Business Analyst: “No idea, let’s ask the users.”

Users: “We were hoping the developer knew.”

But here, in the world of entertainment software, those processes are created out of thin air. That is mind blowing to an enterprise developer. Somewhere, a Zenimax designer (sitting in a bean bag chair in a room full of action figures and movie posters, right? I’ve seen behind-the-scenes videos of game studios…) thought “you know what would be cool?...” and then that cool thing happened. In the above exchange the Enterprise Developer has to ask “what happens” and then gets stonewalled when no one knows the answer. In entertainment software, there’s a better question to ask in that situation: “what do you want to happen?” That's like some Harry Potteresque magic phrase to an enterprise developer.

So when it comes down to a matter of intent, regarding the thing you built from scratch with your minds, I cannot fathom how an answer doesn’t immediately come off of the top of your head and why it would be difficult to relay that thought to your customers.

That’s like someone building a house to your exact specifications and then coming to you asking “you put down here that you wanted the boy’s room painted pink and the girl’s room painted blue, are you sure that’s right?” and you responding “I have no idea.” What? You have no idea what you want? You have no opinion on your own opinion?
  • onlinegamer1
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    Respec should be:

    - Free every 3 days on a timer.
    - If you used your free and are on timer, then the current cost.
    - Timer should auto-reset on patch releases.

    Simple.
  • Rev Rielle
    Rev Rielle
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    I think it's honestly fine as it is.
    However, I would like to see us have an option to use an additional skill point on a morphed skill that would give us the option to swap the morph.
    If you can be anything, be kind.
  • SystemiK
    SystemiK
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    You mentioned that you are "an enterprise software developer". Might I suggest that you look into the workings of another profession...the "editor". That guy could probably help you to make a point before your readers have lost interest in whatever point you may eventually get around to making...
  • crislevin
    crislevin
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    They are just pulling all stops to have players sinking in more money and time.

    Its acceptable behavior since they are a MMO company trying to make money.

    Its NOT acceptable when they make massive changes to the skills and offers no refund of skill points related to those changed skills. Its basically asking people to pay to beta test for them. Its beyond disgusting.
  • Maverick827
    Maverick827
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    SystemiK wrote: »
    You mentioned that you are "an enterprise software developer". Might I suggest that you look into the workings of another profession...the "editor". That guy could probably help you to make a point before your readers have lost interest in whatever point you may eventually get around to making...
    I guess the bold sentences in the second paragraph were too subtle.
  • niocwy
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    The current cost for the full respec is fine.

    But there should be another mechanic to allow for switching morphed skills.

    Though I won't even try to point out how they should do it.
    Edited by niocwy on June 24, 2014 2:48PM
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  • Nidwin
    Nidwin
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    It's a choice they made and TESO isn't the only game that did this.
    Respec's are possible but there's a price attached to it.

    I've no issues with it. But coming from wotmud where respecs at level 51 are

    Losing 7 Levels
    Spent 2 hours in the Circle of Raven as when you get pked (sameside prac reset) you have to wait 15 tics (between 17-20 mins depending on server time lag) after every death before being able to get out of the Circle.
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  • crislevin
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    Nidwin wrote: »
    It's a choice they made and TESO isn't the only game that did this.
    Respec's are possible but there's a price attached to it.
    I bet ESO is the only one that actually changes skills and then give no skill points refund.

    This is not game economy anymore.
  • Kalman
    Kalman
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    I posted the below in another thread on this topic here:
    Feature Change Request: Please Modify Respec Shrines

    Just need more options. It would be nice to re-spec each skill but that would require a lot of work.

    Fast changes that could be done rather easily with minimal UI changes:

    For Skill:
    Full Respec (current respec)
    Morph Respec (Refunds all skill points to morphed abilities and puts them at state ready to be morphed)
    Line Respec (Refunds all skill points spent in a particular skill line)

    For Character:
    Full Respec (current respec)
    Attribute Respec (refund points spent in selected attribute and set points spent in that attribute to 0)
  • danno8
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    First off I think you are having a "grass is greener" moment in regards to Business software developer vs. Entertainment software developer. Everyone thinks that "that guy" in "that job" has it so much easier than they do, without of course having to walk a mile in their shoes and actually play out the day to day intangibles that make work hard.

    It was funny, in your example of book report vs short story, my immediate gut response was I would far rather have to write a book report than have to create a short story, because there are rules to follow and a set structure to comply to. To me this makes it easier than having to create something new or innovative and having to create a new set of rules that that work together in harmony.

    Anyway, that said, I would imagine off the top of my head the respec costs are as they are now because;

    1. They want choices to be meaningful, and they want your choices to define your play style or vice versa

    2. Since skill points are tied in to crafting they want you to actually commit to crafting and have that be a part of your character, rather than something you can pick up and drop at will (since your crafting levels do not reset on respec)

    3. They believe the costs of respec force you to make hard decisions which add a level of depth to the enjoyment of the game. Also, they probably believe that if it was too expensive, people would never respec. But since they do (a lot) this leads to the belief that all is well.

    Do I agree? Not really. I would like them to be lower, or at least on a timer that lets you experiment with different builds without making your skill point investment meaningless.

    Because when you think about it, if they were much lower or free, why have to choose one morph over another? Once you earn them just make them all available based on the number of skill points you have acquired since they would be so easily (although inconveniently) changeable.

  • RazielSR
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    Respec is great as it is now. Just some people blaming here and there. Zos should put more efforts on creating more veteran levels and forget about people asking for cheaper respec. It is completely ok the way it is.
    Edited by RazielSR on June 24, 2014 3:29PM
  • Ghostbane
    Ghostbane
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    When people complain about things to Zos, they normally nerf it. Prepare for a few less statues!
    Edited by Ghostbane on June 24, 2014 3:33PM
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  • Snit
    Snit
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    I'd like to see the cost vastly lowered. Alternately, specific morphs should be switchable for a lesser cost.

    One of my favorite things to do in MMO's is tinker with builds and experiment. Here, that's denied me. The cost is simply prohibitive once your char has 250+ skill points.
    Snit AD Sorc
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  • stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO
    stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO
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    One reason to try the public PTS is to play around with different builds before you make commitments for your live character. It does make a respec less of a gamble, so you won't end up having to do it several times.

    I just wish I could respec my VR1 Templar and my lvl 40 NB to different classes...
  • crislevin
    crislevin
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    One reason to try the public PTS is to play around with different builds before you make commitments for your live character. It does make a respec less of a gamble, so you won't end up having to do it several times.

    I just wish I could respec my VR1 Templar and my lvl 40 NB to different classes...
    it does solve one aspect of the problem, but it doesn't do anything when they change skills every month.
  • Xanthro
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    They should ad an optional quest that rewards you with a full reset of skill points instead of spending the cash. That way, people are not just respecing for individual encounters over and over, but people are not forced to spend money on trying new things.
    Also, the cost should be based on the number of skill points you have, not what you have allocated. Right now, all upper level players do is use the skill points for a specific build, then don't spend the rest so they can respec over and over.
  • Lalai
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    I'd prefer the respec cost to stay as is. I would, however, like the choice to pick which skill points I refund. So instead of having to pay 100g per skill point for all skill points spent, I would be paying 100g per skill point I actually wanted to use.

    I can't speak for the whole not refunding skills they change bit. Any of my skills that received major changes have been refunded to me, as they said they would be in the last major patch. I've not logged in yet today (dunno if patch 1.2.3 has hit yet), and I won't be able to later. I don't see them saying they're going to refund any skills (which I don't really agree with, they should be refunding any they majorly changed/nerfed) but it could have been something they forgot to add. That seems to happen.

    On the topic of developers.. Game developers have to follow what game designers say. Unless you're talking something like an indie company where the developer is also the designer.. but Zenimax is not a small indie company. They have full Bethesda input for the story, and in all likelihood had a few designers who documented, and prioritized, all the other stuff for the game. The devs don't just get to make a bunch of systems and such up willy nilly.

    While the office may look lax, that's likely because they have to have some way to relieve stress. We were allowed a lot of the same freedom at the Amazon call center I worked at (desks were covered in stuff that the person liked, we had lots of stuff in the breakroom to mess with on freetime like foosball, even did a thing where we made our own mini-golf course). It wasn't cause our job was super easy and stressfree. It's because it was super stressful and they tried to work around what they could to provide some sort of comfort level to lower the turnover rate. The same seems to go for game developers. It's not uncommon for them to have 60+ hour work weeks, and then come home with a laptop and work more (because they're salary so employers don't have to pay overtime). So yeah, if they're allowed to make the space they're spending a ton of time in a bit more relaxing to them.. have at it. It's not a sign that they aren't working hard, or that they're unorganized.
    Edited by Lalai on June 24, 2014 4:03PM
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