Racials and Game Balance - Let us Choose

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

Blizzard seems to be getting it these days: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/11913971864

Some racials in WoW has always caused people to play those races (min maxing) to gain the most out of their character. Specifically, trolls being the best pick to play as hunter (orcs second best). For the alliance side you have Draenai and Worgen, but overall Trolls are the best due to haste being such an important stat for hunters in MoP.

I see the same happening here in ESO and I think it's time you re-evaluate your current setup to keep the game balanced on all three sides. What you can do is let us choose what racials (call them perks instead) we want at character creation, and a new game mechanic similar to the respec feature. This way it'll be easier to level up new skills (heavy, light, medium, bow ext) by allowing us to pick and choose for certain needs.

Another great example is changing from a spell caster to a melee build. As you probably know everyone / zos, the total amount of physical crit (unbuffed) is incredibly lower than as a caster. So what would the most logical thing to do? Reroll a khajit after spending hours upon hours leveling your character to VR+, just to get the physical crit racial? I don't think so.

Singular · June 2014

Your poll's answers are not representative of the possible choices. They only seek to back up your claims.

That's called "cherry picking" - it's not a useful way to generate data, but act as a thinly veiled confirmation to support your bias.

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

Singular wrote: »

Your poll's answers are not representative of the possible choices. They only seek to back up your claims.

That's called "cherry picking" - it's not a useful way to generate data, but act as a thinly veiled confirmation to support your bias.

Pick other.

Of course I'm biased when I know I'm right.

Tr1cksh0t · June 2014

Extremely biased poll, the answers won't really provide useful feedback to anyone

Singular · June 2014

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Your poll's answers are not representative of the possible choices. They only seek to back up your claims.

That's called "cherry picking" - it's not a useful way to generate data, but act as a thinly veiled confirmation to support your bias.

Pick other.

Of course I'm biased when I know I'm right.

This is why we need a disagree button.

Anyways, no, you're incorrect. You're basically arguing that race should matter for appearance only. That's too boring and defeats the, mostly lore, purposes for having races.

Jankstar · June 2014

Nice try, but you are too heavy handed with the poll options.
Next time make your argument, then ask if people support balance with an agree and a disagree option. People will be more likely to respond and you can do what you are trying to do here, which is paint those who disagree as people who oppose balance.

tordr86b16_ESO · June 2014

Singular wrote: »

tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Your poll's answers are not representative of the possible choices. They only seek to back up your claims.

That's called "cherry picking" - it's not a useful way to generate data, but act as a thinly veiled confirmation to support your bias.

Pick other.

Of course I'm biased when I know I'm right.

This is why we need a disagree button.

Anyways, no, you're incorrect. You're basically arguing that race should matter for appearance only. That's too boring and defeats the, mostly lore, purposes for having races.

Yes it should. Choosing a race should be about what you like visually and not about which one has the best bonuses. Racial is an archaic feature that should be flushed down the drain and replaced with something similar I've suggested here.

Having a disagree button produces nothing constructive either.

Falmer · June 2014

No thanks... making the game ANYTHING like WoW is a bad thing.

Changing the game to cater to a small minority of min/max players who want their cake and eat it too is also a bad thing.

The races are there for a reason.

MasterSpatula · June 2014

Biased poll is bad poll.

Enkil · June 2014

I'd like to seem something more like a balanced version of the Morrowind racial traits and powers in the game.

Singular · June 2014

Here's an unbiased poll for your discussion piece:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/113244/should-racial-abilities-be-uncoupled-from-race

Darkstorn42 · June 2014

Bad/Biased poll. Also, I am for promoting balance, which is all WoW did. There are no game breaking racials.

LordEcks · June 2014

Dumbest poll responses I've seen to date. Not gonna dignify it by voting.

Completely disagree with your entire post. I left WoW some time ago in the burning hole that was Cataclysm and could really care less what min/maxing has done to their Panda land balance.

This is still Elder Scrolls. Redguards are stamina junkies, Altmers are magicka addicts, Dark Elves are still hybrids and Nords wear loin cloths and never complain its cold out.

The reality is that the race choices arent that impactful, even from a min max perspective. The few that do stand out like Khajit only do so in certain niche builds. I like the finality of picking a race. Learn to live with your decisions or re-roll.

Not everything should be a pay to be FOTM respec-fest like WoW.

Eivar · June 2014

I'm largely ambivalent on the subject, I've done done a lot of minmaxing in wow and such, and while it's useful on an elite level (aka world first level) but beyond that the generally small bonus is just that, small. I have my favorite races in WoW and I have my favorites here, I play what race type I like regardless of the best options for minmaxing.

Nox_Aeterna · June 2014

I would say it really creates a huge balance issue or anything but i do only pick the best races for the class/role combo i want.

So yes , there are many races i consider completely useless and will never play in this game :P , but , that is me.

UrQuan · June 2014

Biased poll is biased. Nobody should vote in this poll, regardless of whether they agree with you.

drogon1 · June 2014

Singular wrote: »

Your poll's answers are not representative of the possible choices. They only seek to back up your claims.

That's called "cherry picking" - it's not a useful way to generate data, but act as a thinly veiled confirmation to support your bias.

Ouchie!

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Roleplaying games (of which, WoW is only barely) do have some hard choices in them. It's part of the allure to many. Character creation, backstory evolution, and curbing the story to your choices ... all have a huge impact.

Roleplaying games are also prone to min-maxers, a group of player I personally feel ruin the atmosphere of the game itself. And if the game has competitive elements (either with PvP on rare occasion, or more commonly in PvE-related competition like Trials or Raids), all end-game players become min-maxers to some degree.

The logical argument against racial bonuses, is the question if it really a choice to choose cake or death? Can a player choose to go medium or heavy armor, knowing light synergizes better and results in a 'better' character? Does choosing the wrong gear or weapon combo mean you will constantly do worse than others?

The logical argument for racial bonuses, is that player identity and individualism is one of the founding blocks of RPGs since the very beginning. Our ability to choose and evolve dictates our end result of fun and entertainment.

Personally, I will always choose the race I like, over the passives that race has. But I can understand why many simply do not have the ability to choose to be less. That's why I like games that randomize certain elements, or rulesets that make you choose a penalty feature for every racial bonus you get, forcing you to make something 'less than ideal'.

Because it's the imperfections that make us human.

Blackwidow · June 2014

Falmer wrote: »

No thanks... making the game ANYTHING like WoW is a bad thing.

This statement is so insanely wrong it hurts my brain.

So, any feature from WoW is a bad thing?

Mounts-Bad?
Magic-Bad?
Mana-Bad
Chat box-Bad?
Buildings-Bad
Gold-Bad
Guilds-Bad
Monsters-Bad

Seriously, how close minded can a person be?

If you don't like a person's idea because the idea is bad, fine. But just because it happens to be in WoW does not make it a bad idea.

Sakiri · June 2014

Falmer wrote: »

No thanks... making the game ANYTHING like WoW is a bad thing.

Changing the game to cater to a small minority of min/max players who want their cake and eat it too is also a bad thing.

The races are there for a reason.

WoW has done quite a bit right and to completely disregard it out of some sort of disgusted hatred that I can only classify as some sort of envy, but I digress.

I pick race for aesthetics and theme, either option would affect me personally little.

That said, theyre no longer racials at this point and become the vessel of cookie cutter specs where all of the same abilities are taken regardless.

Bad idea.

Sakiri · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Roleplaying games (of which, WoW is only barely) do have some hard choices in them. It's part of the allure to many. Character creation, backstory evolution, and curbing the story to your choices ... all have a huge impact.

Roleplaying games are also prone to min-maxers, a group of player I personally feel ruin the atmosphere of the game itself. And if the game has competitive elements (either with PvP on rare occasion, or more commonly in PvE-related competition like Trials or Raids), all end-game players become min-maxers to some degree.

The logical argument against racial bonuses, is the question if it really a choice to choose cake or death? Can a player choose to go medium or heavy armor, knowing light synergizes better and results in a 'better' character? Does choosing the wrong gear or weapon combo mean you will constantly do worse than others?

The logical argument for racial bonuses, is that player identity and individualism is one of the founding blocks of RPGs since the very beginning. Our ability to choose and evolve dictates our end result of fun and entertainment.

Personally, I will always choose the race I like, over the passives that race has. But I can understand why many simply do not have the ability to choose to be less. That's why I like games that randomize certain elements, or rulesets that make you choose a penalty feature for every racial bonus you get, forcing you to make something 'less than ideal'.

Because it's the imperfections that make us human.

We in my Pathfinder game call it "Munchkining" after the card game Munchkin, where blackmailing, cheating(and not getting caught), and in general being a jackhole to each other is encouraged.

Our barbarian multiclass(cant remember her exact build) was so finely tuned that when my DM ran her through a combat sim with the final boss of our campaign(demon lord Deskari) and she beat him... alone mind you... IN A ROUND AND A HALF. 9 bloody seconds.

Yeah. Min/maxing.

Csub · June 2014

Error 404: suitable option for poll not found.

AngryNord · June 2014

The racial bonuses are there for a reason.

Blud · June 2014

I wouldn't vote in this poll. The answer choices are not well thought out.

However, I do think races should be different and I like that racial attributes make a difference.

UrQuan · June 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Roleplaying games (of which, WoW is only barely) do have some hard choices in them. It's part of the allure to many. Character creation, backstory evolution, and curbing the story to your choices ... all have a huge impact.

Roleplaying games are also prone to min-maxers, a group of player I personally feel ruin the atmosphere of the game itself. And if the game has competitive elements (either with PvP on rare occasion, or more commonly in PvE-related competition like Trials or Raids), all end-game players become min-maxers to some degree.

The logical argument against racial bonuses, is the question if it really a choice to choose cake or death? Can a player choose to go medium or heavy armor, knowing light synergizes better and results in a 'better' character? Does choosing the wrong gear or weapon combo mean you will constantly do worse than others?

The logical argument for racial bonuses, is that player identity and individualism is one of the founding blocks of RPGs since the very beginning. Our ability to choose and evolve dictates our end result of fun and entertainment.

Personally, I will always choose the race I like, over the passives that race has. But I can understand why many simply do not have the ability to choose to be less. That's why I like games that randomize certain elements, or rulesets that make you choose a penalty feature for every racial bonus you get, forcing you to make something 'less than ideal'.

Because it's the imperfections that make us human.

We in my Pathfinder game call it "Munchkining" after the card game Munchkin, where blackmailing, cheating(and not getting caught), and in general being a jackhole to each other is encouraged.

Our barbarian multiclass(cant remember her exact build) was so finely tuned that when my DM ran her through a combat sim with the final boss of our campaign(demon lord Deskari) and she beat him... alone mind you... IN A ROUND AND A HALF. 9 bloody seconds.

Yeah. Min/maxing.

You realize that the game Munchkin took its name from a term that's been prevalent in the pen and paper RPG community since probably the 70s, right? It's a term that really only refers to min/maxing and rules lawyering to get the absolutely most OP character possible. But yeah, being a jackhole can be part of being a munchkin.

Leesha · June 2014

The only people who chose races for the racials in wow were either the pvp crowd or the hardcore heroic raiders. Far more people than you think choose race based on which is the most physically appealing to them.

UrQuan · June 2014

@tordr86b16_ESO your poll is bad and you should feel bad. This thread is how you should have done your poll if you were honestly interested in gathering opinions on the validity of your idea. Of course, the results of that poll so far are overwhelmingly against your idea, so I guess I can see why you felt you had to try to word your poll options in such a biased manner to try to get people to agree with you.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

@tordr86b16_ESO‌ a tip for you when creating polls, if you pose the options in an entirely biased way the result you'll get won't be valid.

"Yes, please change it!"
"I don't care about game balance"

You clearly have an agenda you're pushing and a totally biased way of asking for others' opinion totally invalidates your poll.

My 'other' is "No, the system is fine as it is", it's not a 'balance' issue in the slightest, by and large the racials don't matter much but they give a bit of flavour and a nice little boost if you're looking to min/max.

The other interpretation of my 'other' would be "No, I don't give a toss for PVP balance" .. note PVP not GAME.

Have a nice day.

Catches_the_Sun · June 2014

Another ridiculous biased poll. You could at least add a "No" option. Racials are not causing game imbalance in any way right now.

MeowGinger · June 2014

I'd really rather just have the option to change race & appearance for a ridiculously large fee (300,000 gold?)... like showracemenu, but no longer free.

Sakiri · June 2014

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

Roleplaying games (of which, WoW is only barely) do have some hard choices in them. It's part of the allure to many. Character creation, backstory evolution, and curbing the story to your choices ... all have a huge impact.

Roleplaying games are also prone to min-maxers, a group of player I personally feel ruin the atmosphere of the game itself. And if the game has competitive elements (either with PvP on rare occasion, or more commonly in PvE-related competition like Trials or Raids), all end-game players become min-maxers to some degree.

The logical argument against racial bonuses, is the question if it really a choice to choose cake or death? Can a player choose to go medium or heavy armor, knowing light synergizes better and results in a 'better' character? Does choosing the wrong gear or weapon combo mean you will constantly do worse than others?

The logical argument for racial bonuses, is that player identity and individualism is one of the founding blocks of RPGs since the very beginning. Our ability to choose and evolve dictates our end result of fun and entertainment.

Personally, I will always choose the race I like, over the passives that race has. But I can understand why many simply do not have the ability to choose to be less. That's why I like games that randomize certain elements, or rulesets that make you choose a penalty feature for every racial bonus you get, forcing you to make something 'less than ideal'.

Because it's the imperfections that make us human.

We in my Pathfinder game call it "Munchkining" after the card game Munchkin, where blackmailing, cheating(and not getting caught), and in general being a jackhole to each other is encouraged.

Our barbarian multiclass(cant remember her exact build) was so finely tuned that when my DM ran her through a combat sim with the final boss of our campaign(demon lord Deskari) and she beat him... alone mind you... IN A ROUND AND A HALF. 9 bloody seconds.

Yeah. Min/maxing.

You realize that the game Munchkin took its name from a term that's been prevalent in the pen and paper RPG community since probably the 70s, right? It's a term that really only refers to min/maxing and rules lawyering to get the absolutely most OP character possible. But yeah, being a jackhole can be part of being a munchkin.

Our reference did come from the game, but it amuses me to hear that.

Go look up the card game. Its hilarious. And it fits. Usually the person rules lawyering is being a jackhole to the DM and hes vetoed sooo many things.

Side note, the character in question is a 11/mythic 3. Deskari is a CR 29 demon lord who's stat block makes me cry.

9 seconds. One and a half rounds. At level 11. We essentially forced her to reroll... 2paladin/ 10 sorcerer ....

The Elder Scrolls Online

Racials and Game Balance - Let us Choose

Racials and Game Balance - Let us Choose 115 votes