New 'Endurance' Stat

Ser Lobo
Ser Lobo
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Every player of every class, whether ranged or melee, magicka or stamina based, is encouraged (especially in veteran ranks) to learn to use the all-powerful block, dodge, sprint, sneak, cc-break and interrupt.

In fact, these skills are known as 'finesse' actions in game, and their proper application is a major focus of difference in player skills.

But as many players have noted, a player who is using melee weapons exclusively or at least primarily, suffers more due to having to share this resource. Magicka players can reserve their stamina bar for finesse skills, and focus their class and stave abilities on the magicka bar.



Endurance


As others have suggested, one solution to this imbalance is an 'Endurance' bar. If you've ever been on a horse and noticed that small, thin little stamina bar below, keep that image in your mind.

Endurance would be a derived attribute, no longer completely interchangeable with stamina. Now it would be a combination of magicka, health, and stamina, so that all builds have access to this important attribute. Health and stamina having more of a benefit to this attribute pool than magicka.

Any passives or abilities which currently effect stealth costs, sprinting costs, blocking costs, dodging costs, interrupt costs, or cc-break, would instead effect the cost from this new endurance bar.

Potions could be built to focus on adding to this bar, as well as providing passive regen in heavy armor, enchants and set bonuses.



How this affects stamina?

This would completely remove the cost association with finesse abilities from the stamina pool. This would mean that stamina would be set aside completely for the use of weapon and armor based abilities, as well as any guild lines, similar to it's magicka counterpart.

And it would allow magicka and health focused builds to benefit from their point allotment, without having to invest in stamina to use abilities otherwise unrelated to their build.


Too long, didn't read

Make a new bar, call it something like endurance, make block and dodge drain it instead of stamina, and solve a major crux in your problems with stamina builds competing against magicka builds.
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  • reggielee
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    sounds like a good idea but I bet it is too late to introduce another stat like that and would involve major recoding of about..everything
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  • Ser Lobo
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    reggielee wrote: »
    sounds like a good idea but I bet it is too late to introduce another stat like that and would involve major recoding of about..everything

    This is the scary part. How easy is it for them to change the code they've built? If it's so drastically hard (which it might be, ala Jump to Lightspeed in SWG), then that's a major issue with future expansions no matter which way we look at it.

    I'm also of the mind that MMO's are developed properly over decades, and can evolve and change in that time.
    Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
    Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
    Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.

    XBOX NA
    Ruze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.

    He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.

    This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.
  • Arsenic_Touch
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    Would love this. They need to do this, bring stamina based skills up to be in line with magicka or bring down magicka skills to be in line with stamina skills and they need to tweak resource gains for stamina. Then the balance issues would be resolved.
    Edited by Arsenic_Touch on June 22, 2014 3:27PM
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  • Horrum
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe TERA had the same issue with their Lancer class. They eventually added a separate bar which represented the resource used for blocking. It fixed the issue entirely, however TERA is very different to ESO. It's certainly worth some thought though.
  • kaosodin
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    Yea, we all want good feedback. But many of you are asking things that would require game foundation of change..
  • zgrssd
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    Right now they are balancing the classes, to remove solo-ability and bring them more in one line for PvP. That has to be the first step.

    Afterwards they can go to balance PvE difficulty and Stam/Magica balance. Wich can only be done if they have a "baseline" to test them against (the balanced classes).
    One step at a time. And they have not finished the current one.
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  • madangrypally
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    Add Endurance and then make Heavy Armor have a more of it.
  • Birfreben_Kinghelred
  • AlexDougherty
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    So are you also going to ask for our stats to be reset when they introduce it??
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  • Raash
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    A very solid thread, well done. I agree very much
  • Dweebert
    Dweebert
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    Last game I played implemented an Endurance bar, 2.5 years into the game. It was used for Sprinting. So it's not impossible to put into code. Endurance would feed Sprinting/ Dodge/Roll/ Block. All attacks would draw from the stamina pool. That my friends would mostly cure the stamina issue for the melee players.
  • stumpy999
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    mmm, is this not what Stamina is for? OK, I understand that Stamina is currently underpowered compared to Magicka but a 4th stat? For the same thing?

    No, I disagree. If Stamina doesn't work focus on stamina, don't creat another stat called Stammmeeena and try to say it's different
  • kirnmalidus
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    This would be one simple way to mostly fix the stamina/magicka disparity, yes.

    But it is not the end-all solution to the disparity. Someone else had a great post comparing the differences between abilities and gear for magicka vs. stamina users (such as the light armor passives, Equilibrium from mages guild and Magicka Furnace / Warlock's sets). Until Stamina builds can employ similar boosts to what Magicka builds get we'll still be out in the cold.
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    Attention Zenimax: Stamina builds don't hold up to magicka builds, and this is causing most of your class imbalance. It makes melee weapons and bows weaker than staves and class abilities. It makes medium and heavy armor less desirable than light armor. Fix this imbalance, and you'll address most of your balance issues.

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  • Syzmicke
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    Just reduce the cost of Stam abilities by say %50 would that not help. I dont use stam so just saying.
  • Arsenic_Touch
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    This would be one simple way to mostly fix the stamina/magicka disparity, yes.

    But it is not the end-all solution to the disparity. Someone else had a great post comparing the differences between abilities and gear for magicka vs. stamina users (such as the light armor passives, Equilibrium from mages guild and Magicka Furnace / Warlock's sets). Until Stamina builds can employ similar boosts to what Magicka builds get we'll still be out in the cold.

    A stamina furnace set would be so great.
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  • Birfreben_Kinghelred
    So are you also going to ask for our stats to be reset when they introduce it??

    Yes, but just the points we put into stamina, so I can invest them on an unsub.
  • dastone
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    This same issue was true with AOC stamina based toons had to sprint using stamina were magic only needed it for sprinting. AOC did after a long time add in the 3 rd resource pool. Took a long while I expect the same here you can't over come the inequity .
  • Ragnar_Lodbrok
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    Thats too good of an idea for ZOS to ever use it.
  • Alphashado
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    This is exactly what I have suggested in several stamina related threads. It is the most reasonable solution. Even though it would require massive programming changes, it would be well worth it for the long term health of the game. Plus if the player base was aware that this change was in the works, more people would stick around or at least plan on coming back.
  • Hamfast
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    I like the idea, to go a tad bit farther, (((Stamina * 2) + (Magicka * 2) + (Health)) / 5)

    But there would still need to be balance work between Stamina Based Actions and Magicka Based ones, and I would say to revisit class/weapon skills to determine which attribute they should be based off of...

    Currently all class skills are based off of Magicka, all weapons except for Staves are based off of stamina, staves are Magicka based, thus a Magicka build need only worry about Magicka to maximize their damage potential where those who use a Stamina Build must split their attribute points between Magicka for Class skills and Stamina for Weapon attacks.

    As I think about it, I may have an easier solution, keep the "finesse skills" based on and using Stamina, all normal attacks as well (including normal staff attacks) these are the Light to Heavy attacks made with any weapon as they do not cost anything to use (a Heavy 2 handed Sword attack uses just as much stamina as a Light one, that is to say, none) All Class and Special weapon attacks cost Magicka. While Swinging that two handed Sword is not Magical by itself, the ability to lay someone out with an uppercut could be... same with that flurry of blows done with DW, an attack augmented by your magicka... and how did that poison get on your arrow if not by Magic...

    Balance between the attack lines are then based off of the same attribute, a single base from which to start. Stamina, the useless attribute for Casters, becomes important for all standard attacks as well as the Dodging and blocking, unless you don't mind having your standard attack be weak...
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  • Dweebert
    Dweebert
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    stumpy999 wrote: »
    mmm, is this not what Stamina is for? OK, I understand that Stamina is currently underpowered compared to Magicka but a 4th stat? For the same thing?

    No, I disagree. If Stamina doesn't work focus on stamina, don't creat another stat called Stammmeeena and try to say it's different
    My Point is that casters can sprint away and still have a full magika bar as where a melee toon sprints and has nothing left for combos
  • Alphashado
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    Dweebert wrote: »
    stumpy999 wrote: »
    mmm, is this not what Stamina is for? OK, I understand that Stamina is currently underpowered compared to Magicka but a 4th stat? For the same thing?

    No, I disagree. If Stamina doesn't work focus on stamina, don't creat another stat called Stammmeeena and try to say it's different
    My Point is that casters can sprint away and still have a full magika bar as where a melee toon sprints and has nothing left for combos

    Same applies to blocking or dodging. A level playing field would require magicka builds to use magicka for sprinting, dodging, or blocking. All 3 of these are a MUST in order to survive in vet zones. This is why the majority of vet lvl players switch to pure magicka builds. Because then you can use all your stamina to avoid dmg. And nothing else.

  • aqueous12
    aqueous12
    The reason that I don't like this is that it actually makes casters MORE powerful, as with this idea they absolutely don't have to worry about stamina and can still have the same sprinting and dodging capacity as melee characters. If you put points into stamina, it would be nice to have your 'finesse' actions benefit as well.

    I think maybe the solution should be rather than adding an additional stat, maybe just increase the amount of max stamina you receive for putting a point into it. This also has the added bonus of being much more plausible technologically speaking.
  • Alphashado
    Alphashado
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    aqueous12 wrote: »
    The reason that I don't like this is that it actually makes casters MORE powerful, as with this idea they absolutely don't have to worry about stamina and can still have the same sprinting and dodging capacity as melee characters. If you put points into stamina, it would be nice to have your 'finesse' actions benefit as well.

    I think maybe the solution should be rather than adding an additional stat, maybe just increase the amount of max stamina you receive for putting a point into it. This also has the added bonus of being much more plausible technologically speaking.

    The problem with that or reducing stamina cost would be in situations where no mitigation is being used. If someon was going balls out with a 2H weapon w/o dodging, blocking, or sprinting, and they had either drastically reduced stamina cost or a gigantic stamina pool, then they would have an advantage over a magicka user. That's why making 3 pools would be the easiest to balance. For every magicka set bonus, glyph, or weapon bonus, you could have a mirror image version with stamina. I.e warlock set etc. Then make stamina abities cost the same as magicka abities. Then if you need to beef up mitigation or sprinting, you would boost endurance at the expense of magicka or stamina.

    Edited by Alphashado on June 23, 2014 6:34PM
  • Ninnghizhidda
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    Horrum wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe TERA had the same issue with their Lancer class. They eventually added a separate bar which represented the resource used for blocking. It fixed the issue entirely, however TERA is very different to ESO. It's certainly worth some thought though.

    Indeed, and warriors also use it (when they go tank mode). And it works pretty well now, since there are ways and skills that will help regenerate the depleted resource.

    No idea how something similar would / could work in ESO, and how feasible it is. It is a good suggestion though and perhaps with some further adjustments would actually make "physical" / stamina / "weapon user" builds more attractive or even meaningful.

    Would probably even end the idiotic and totally pathetic "Harry Potter or GTFO" vicious circle and attitude that is currently poisoning this otherwise great game.
  • MrGhosty
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    I don't think this would be as large of a programming issue as people think it is, they already have the additional stamina bar via the horse when you're mounted. It doesn't seem like a stretch they could find a way to use that programming to add a permanent additional bar.

    Additionally this could be a great step in the process of balancing the classes around each other to have greater equity between the various build styles.
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  • Fuxo
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    It would be sufficient, if there were magicka based abilities with the same effect as dodge roll (blink) and interrupt (dispel). One could choose freely either stamina or magicka based one, or both.

    Then, the only remaining thing would be blocking. It should cost 0 stamina, work only with 180 degrees and disallow all attacks and abilities except melee range ones. Blocking mitigation would be based on weapon/shield used and max stamina.
  • Obscure
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    aqueous12 wrote: »
    The reason that I don't like this is that it actually makes casters MORE powerful, as with this idea they absolutely don't have to worry about stamina and can still have the same sprinting and dodging capacity as melee characters. If you put points into stamina, it would be nice to have your 'finesse' actions benefit as well.

    I think maybe the solution should be rather than adding an additional stat, maybe just increase the amount of max stamina you receive for putting a point into it. This also has the added bonus of being much more plausible technologically speaking.

    I've been of the same opinion on the concept of a separate pool for the mundane uses that are currently dedicated to Stamina. The work around for that is to make the pool based on how many points a given player has allocated to the Stamina attribute, and to make it not truly independent but a buffer of sorts. All the mundane Stamina uses would use it first, then consume Stamina once it's depleted. Then associate the boost to recovery of this pool to the Heavy Armor Constitution passive. Doing this the Heavy Armor Stamina specialized player could finally block longer than the Medium Armor Stamina specialized player like the Divines intended, rather than how it is now.

    Additionally each Stamina weapon needs to have a certain mundane Stamina use cost reduction tied to it, much like One Handed and Shield already employs for blocking and bashing:

    Dual Wield: Controlled Fury passive - now also reduces the cost of Dodging and increased Dodge distance
    Bow: Ranger passive - now also reduces the cost of Sprinting and increases Sprint speed
    Two Handed: Balanced Blade passive - now also reduces the cost of CC Break and increases immunity duration

    Things like this, but in no way limited to this, will make an independent pool function reasonably well.
  • sir_vasb16_ESO
    Age of conan had the same problem in the beginning and they changed it to a sprint bar so if LoLcom (Funcom) can then so can Zenimax and if not then they should not make games at all... So a good idea and we need it now...
  • hk11
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    I would be OK with this. It's not a problem if you are a mage, but if you are using stamina attacks, Agony can wreck you.
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