Proposed Shift/Change in Nightblade Archetype/Playstyle

shad0w18 · June 2014

IMO I think as stamina based melee Nightblades, we should head more into the direction of an 'Infiltrator' archetype compared to a 'thief/rogue' archetype. For example, out of the 4 classes we are the only one that have a class ability to cloak. Granted it's still buggy/broken ATM but I'll talk more about that later. So I feel like as NBs, we should more CCs both in and out of stealth. Like in WoW, sorry I mentioned WoW but it has a good archetype build already, Rogues moved away from the 'Ambush from stealth and OMGWTFBBQPWN'd you with constant backstabs' playstyle and more into a kill potential setup.

This does 2 things. 1) In PvP, NBs will beable to stealthly disable backliners likes archers/mages/healers. But disable as in soft CCs like a silence or just plain old 'Sapped' in an unactable state/stasis for X secs subjected to stamina CC break and diminishing returns etc. 2) In PvE, for both grouped and solo settings, you can go in stealthed and disable a backliner mob. Not only will this make NBs more wanted but will also make NBs have more combat longevity. Medium armor can't really tank so why tank damage if you can negate the damage via CCs.

I havn't really thought about what/which CCs are to be proposed but something like a stealthed silence, sap, combat stun (w/o the need of a Cloak+CW combo), and maybe something like a smokebomb (AoE untargetable, group friendly within X radius).

Of course, what I am proposing is more of a class overhaul then a fix so this will sound a little crazy/OP etc.

Touching base on Cloak, I seriously believe that ESO needs a stealth mechanic overhaul. Armor should/will have an effect on stealth (crouch). For example, per heavy armor pieces is -5% crouch efficiency. Light armor should be neutral with a 0% per piece to affect stealth. And medium armor should be +5% per piece crouch efficiency. And overall, the detection radius needs to be significantly bigger. I believe that crouch should still be available to everyone but it's efficiency needs to be in checked. It's a bit crazy that a whole zerg group can be about 15/20 meters away from you and still remain unseen. IMO this breaks game immersion.

Also as a NB, we don't really 'benefit" from stealth considering everyone can stealth and everyone can detect. Which is fine in sense. I believe that you should be able to detect stealth but more in the line of Detect Life vs Illusionary Skill. Stealth is an illusionary skill. I don't see how simply walking in the same vicinity you can 'detect' me without any additional efforts. And by 'Detect Life' I mean simple means like detect stealth pots (which are OP btw. I love using them vs other NBs

) and Magelight.

On the subject of Magelight, I wrote another thread about this but I'm going to summarize it here. Basically, the unmorphed version of this ability should not beable to detect life/stealth. I believe that you should either spec into utility or damage. For example, our Concealed Weapon vs Surprised Attack. You can get the -40% armor pen (damage) OR the increased stealth movement (utility). Magelight ATM gives BOTH morphs stealth detect (utility) AND spell crit (damage). Only difference is one gives more crit or stealth damage reduction per respected morphs. Basically the same thing on what SnB users are asking for which is SnB to be on par with other weapons (lolz). How does using a single sword should be on par with a 2H or a guy using 2(!) swords/daggers. But I digress.

What I am proposing is base Magelight is just the +10% spell crit, which in itself is still a ridiculous amount of crit. I wish there was a spell that added +10% crit to weapon

. The morphs should be -stealth damage AND stealth detection OR only the +17% spell crit. This way you can't just have an anti-NB I WIN button, you'll have to choose.

Nightblades need a niche that no other classes can provide. I believe that niche should be a more powerful stealth, undetectable unless you actually put efforts into sniffing us out and more in and out CCs. The 'single DPS burst' archetype has been taken by Sorcs and I doubt they'll give that up with the current meta.

For a wish list, I wish they would added innate/passives for dodge/parry but I think that'll happened.

I'm pretty sure there's more for me to rant about but I can't think of anything else ATM.

Thoughts?

/End Rant

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Part of the potential headache is that assassins (kill from the shadow types) are a common Elder Scrolls element. And the term Nightblade, focusing on dark and a a sharp weapon, lean well towards this idea.

As I've witnessed, it's really those players who attempt to create a stealthy character who strikes and disappears again, who are the most disappointed. And the primary reason for this, is Shadow Cloak.

It's tooltip says it 'Gives player invisibility for 2.5 seconds'. But it's buggy as hell, our own DOTs (of which our class has many) kill it, and any damage we may be taking at that moment (due to the way attacks are handled, the animation of NPC hitting us may have started, but damage doesn't apply until AFTER our cloak) breaks it.

Plus, they nerfed the massive potential a few players WERE applying during combat by combining Shadow Disguise and Vieled Strike for maximum application of damage. This was being done MID fight, repeatedly, and seen as an oversight.

Those working builds I've seen use Shadow Cloak more as a temporary buff to damage output (boost to next stealth attack) and for defense (passives increase damage output, defenses and even stamina regen).

None of this makes a true rogue assassin, and without the future Dark Brotherhood guild skill lines (which may include many duplicates of current NB abilities), we are without this archetype on the battlefield.

Possibly for the better. Full-stealth rogues are a hated class type in EVERY PvP game I've played, and even in dungeons, they create more problems by being an unknown commodity (stealthed too often, no practical combat application otherwise).

In my opinion, NO class should be the sole supporter of a game mechanic (in this case, stealth). A reworking of the shadow line into a defensive-focused path, might be a prime method of giving NB's other focused roles.

shad0w18 · June 2014

Thanks for the thought. It seems Zenimax is a little unsure of what Nightblades should be at the moments. Along with a slew of bugs, I can see why NBs is like the red headed stepchild.

But that reminds me, the 2.5 sec cloak (passives to 2.9), 2.9 secs isn't enough time to do anything. I usually double up on cloak on whatever I'm doing. Either it is initializing a stealth CW in PvP or running pass mobs in dungeons I usually use the cloak twice and it hurts my magicka bank. Currently 6M/1L armor setup, it's costing 400+ something per usage for 2.9s cast. I would love a bump to 4s. 5s would be Christmas morning for me lol.

Edit: Awesome signature btw. So true.

And another thing that bugs me is Cyrodil bag rewards. Why am I getting PvE rewards while PvP'ing

. I think the bag should award more AP, VP, and gold.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

If they switched NB focus to spike damage (which means high-cost skills that do a ton of damage, but aren't spammable) in the assassination line, tanking/defense in the shadow line, and ranged CC/DOT's in the Siphon line, it would have made more sense to me.

cigarsmoker · June 2014

I want our CCs to work on large enemies. Like harvesters and such. If they're not bosses of some sort they shouldn't get a pass on our CCs and currently anything you'd WANT to use a CC on while soloing gets this immunity.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

cigarsmoker wrote: »

I want our CCs to work on large enemies. Like harvesters and such. If they're not bosses of some sort they shouldn't get a pass on our CCs and currently anything you'd WANT to use a CC on while soloing gets this immunity.

Only the lesser CC's, like snares. Knockbacks, Knockups, Immobolizes, Stuns ... these can become problematic.

A good 'silence' would be nice.

shad0w18 · June 2014

I think we are slighting digressing off subject but I do think that they need to make regular elites and rest of PvE more solo friendly considering you shouldn't need a group for solo content. For dungeons, sure keep the difficulty and worlds bosses, too. Elites should be efforts vs reward but a slight chance to die if you screw you like eating too many heavies etc. ATM they are not worth doing and you'll just end up getting a bigger repair bill then said reward. So I believe that CCs should work on the big guys, too, else whats the point of having them. Granted they should still hit like a truck but the whole 1HKO thing ATM is getting old real quick. On the side note, being a vamp I hate getting 1HKO by pyromages, too. 1800+ dmg Fire/Flare damage SMH,

fromtesonlineb16_ESO · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

In my opinion, NO class should be the sole supporter of a game mechanic (in this case, stealth).

Of course they should, otherwise why bother having classes at all if we're all just a variant of the same basic model: Rift is set up so that all classes can do everything, so is GW2 of course, and mediocrity rules.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

In my opinion, NO class should be the sole supporter of a game mechanic (in this case, stealth).

Of course they should, otherwise why bother having classes at all if we're all just a variant of the same basic model: Rift is set up so that all classes can do everything, so is GW2 of course, and mediocrity rules.

Well, you hit the nail on the head there.

Elder Scrolls shouldn't have classes at all, anyhow.

shad0w18 · June 2014

The problem, I think, with stealth is that everyone gets it. I was just hoping we would get something that actually makes us stand out abit more.

trueche · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

In my opinion, NO class should be the sole supporter of a game mechanic (in this case, stealth).

Of course they should, otherwise why bother having classes at all if we're all just a variant of the same basic model: Rift is set up so that all classes can do everything, so is GW2 of course, and mediocrity rules.

Well, you hit the nail on the head there.

Elder Scrolls shouldn't have classes at all, anyhow.

Look at the current state of the game. Most people use Light armor and a staff, only difference is the possibility of a few class skills. If the game didn't have classes there would, at all times, be a cookie-cutter skill set to run or you would just be gimping yourself and any groups you attempt to do content with. It's already to the point where it's staff or gtfo, at least everyone can still be a little different. I mean people are already flocking to DK and sorc because they hear they are OP and "the best", so I could only imagine if every class skill line was open to everyone. You'd end with all dps being basically what the sorc is now.

It's just overall difficult to implement an mmo with no classes, hell giving all weapon and armor skills to everyone as is has been proven to be a more difficult balancing challenge than I believe Zos expected.