Why is it taking so long. Serious question.

ArRashid · June 2014

I agree that fixes and balancing to stamina should have come much, MUCH sooner.

You however lost me on stamina-powered staves, that's just bull****. That would mean that all healers would need to be stamina..

I think the main reasons why there are no pure stamina builds (as opposed to pure magicka builds) are:
- all class abilities use and scale with magicka

- physical abilities are generally slower and less responsive than their magicka counterparts. Why swing a 2h sword, if you can dish out 3-4 AoE spells in the same time period, doing FEW TIMES more damage..

- stamina is shared for attacking and all defense (block, cc-break, roll dodge, sprint), making players save a substantial part (which they can't use for dps) in order to survive fights (as most bosses have centered AoEs they have to roll dodge out of, since running is too slow for that)

- lackluster weapon abilities - we need more (and better) weapon abilities and weapon ultimates. For example there is just SINGLE AOE BUFF for stamina - Circle of Protection. Everything else has to be cast using magicka. With magicka abilities costing 400+ magicka when you have about 1100 magicka pool, that IS A PROBLEM.

Gern_Verkheart · June 2014

Not going to lie, I didn't read all the posts in here.

I just wanted to say, that i don't think there is anything wrong with the heavy armor passives (aside form them bugging out and not actually working). Heavy armor doesn't need any new passives to boost DPS, because that's not what heavy armor is for. What armor you are wearing defines your role more so than any other aspect of this game, and I like it that way.

Light is for magicka DPS and healing, medium fore melee DPS, and Heavy is for survive-ability and tanking.

Medium armor needs this upcoming buff for obvious reasons. Giving heavy armor a buff to DPS would be as ridiculous as giving light armor a buff to melee DPS. The only buff that I wouldn't mind seeing for Heavy armor, would be a passive that makes all your attacks draw more aggro than a non-heavy armor wearer, but that buff is not desperately needed or anything.

reggielee · June 2014

what a snarky post OP. how on earth do you think that will help or give credence to your concerns.

they are working on it, its not just setting a new number for a stat, they have to test against all other classes and mechanics to make sure they dont cause another problem for you to snark about

AngryWolf · June 2014

I've never written a game, but I assume it takes more time than sitting down and hammering out an email. Then going through testing to make sure the changes implement correctly as well. I would rather them take the time and make sure everything is works well instead of rushing out fixes only to have fix the fixes.

Thunderchief · June 2014

I'd rather they did something now that makes people "snarky" but interested in the game rather than some airy-fairy contemplations to a problem that has already existed for months. When they behave with such a lack of urgency it makes people feel like things might not ever be fixed, they lose hope and unsub.

If they gave stamina users 14% regen on medium armor today it would put a smile on their faces and they might put down their staff and light armor to play with bows and swords but eventually they will go back to the magicka builds. This is because what they are proposing should be a temporary stop-gap measure rather than the solution we are looking for to fix class balance.

Wifeaggro13 · June 2014

Thunderchief wrote: »

The players have known what the problems are for 2 months now. Finally you have acknowledged that you agree and that something will need to be done.

The devs have outlined some very minor changes to stamina builds that maybe perhaps possibly might be implemented in some distant indefinite patch at some time. Sounds very wishy-washy.

These minor changes are what you should have hot-fixed immediately weeks ago. These should have been something temporary to keep us happy while you researched the core problem and came up with a more permanent solution. Slight damage increases to underused skills and slight stamina reduction passives on medium armor (but nothing for heavy).

Did it really take 2 months to come up with this? Will it take another 2 months or more to implement it? When your boss heard about these changes did he pat you on the back and say "good job, it's obvious you've been working hard on this?" If I came back to my boss after 2 months and showed him 5 lines of text I'd get the sack.

Are the devs leaning back in their chairs pondering solutions all day. Do they really need to spend weeks and weeks play testing on PTS? This time right now is the most crucial time sensitive period in regards to the longevity of your game. If something isn't done soon this game that you have worked hard to create will just become a bad memory in the gaming community. Most times when people unsub from a game they don't go back. The best chance to retain players is while they still feel invested in their characters.

Do you need to test it? Get a couple of devs and a few of your friends from tamriel foundry and get on PTS and test it out over the course of an hour or two then go back and tweak any necessary changes. Then put it in the game! What are you really waiting for? A sign from heaven? Just do it already. I would rather have seen you implement these changes and make minor tweaks to the game every week or so rather than this seeming inactivity and apathy.

Your devs work at least 8 hours a day right? What do they do? Are they working on new content? If they are please tell them to stop and fix the core issues first.

Back to my original question. Why does it take so long. Do you need to find the specific line of code that you need to change? You can't seriously still be considering what exactly it is you need to change. Are you dithering and procrastinating while you bleed subs?

Every day on the forums there are dozens of new posts complaining about the same specific problems and every time a variety of suggestions are thrown up that are exactly the same as the suggestions the day before. Your options for solutions are limited. Rule out the options you don't like and find a good compromise between the options you do like.

I am quite sure that if you brought the servers down right now but said "we are doing this to reduce VR mob hit points and damage by 10%" there will be smiles all around and few VR players would complain. We would at least know that you are doing something and that it won't take months for change to happen.

Here's another idea you bring down the servers and when they come up again staff skills require stamina instead of magicka. Some people will complain, but it would solve many problems. The only reason they use magicka right now is a roleplay reason. "Hey, staves are magic so they must use magicka right?" No, it completely breaks all balance. Class skills should be magicka and weapon skills should be stamina. In this way all classes will have greater balance. You don't really need to reduce the cost of the skills to counter for utility use of stamina either. Staves are ranged weapons and staff users should not be on the frontlines dodgerolling/blocking/interrupting anyway.This is something that really should have been changed long ago before everyone jumped on to this build. Now when/if you change it everyone will be unhappy and ask for points refunds from staff and light armor trees.

I could be wrong about my suggestions above, but I don't go to work at your company and spend all day thinking about it. You do.

What would happen if you sent out an email today to all unsubbed players stating that you have made VR easier but still challenging, that you have improved stamina/magicka balance and that there is now a greater demand for healers and traditional tanks?

I bet you would see a serious increase to your sub base. $$$$ That's what.

I had high hopes for this game. My sub has been renewed today for 1 more month and I and many others will be watching for changes. Money is coming out of my pocket and going in to yours in return for a service. Please remember this.

The clock is ticking.

The game will be ready for release late 2014 or early 2015. Most MMO's release in this state. If your trion you are fast fix things quick have an open book, acknowledge your games shortcoming s immediately and keep a break neck content pace while holding monthly Live events Albiet shallow but still new dynamic content.
If your ESO you have a beautiful engine one server and a very unfriendly toolset that wont allow live fixes or changes. a very very poorly tested end game and a video game press that lead you to the Guilottine way before launch.
I've been hard on ZOS for the games shortcomings but they truly did create a beautiful game with a lot of potential.
Unfortunately i dont think much of the player base has patience for the imbalance issue or phasing problems. Combine that with the poor itemization in the duck taped end game retention at the 90 day mark will be very poor. Worse then AOC that lost 40% in the first 60. a Rift scenario would have been desirable with a 70 percent Retention at 90 and hovered at it for about a year.

EliteZ · June 2014

Thunderchief wrote: »

I'd rather they did something now that makes people "snarky" but interested in the game rather than some airy-fairy contemplations to a problem that has already existed for months. When they behave with such a lack of urgency it makes people feel like things might not ever be fixed, they lose hope and unsub.

If they gave stamina users 14% regen on medium armor today it would put a smile on their faces and they might put down their staff and light armor to play with bows and swords but eventually they will go back to the magicka builds. This is because what they are proposing should be a temporary stop-gap measure rather than the solution we are looking for to fix class balance.

They do weekly updates, what more do you want? If you expect them to patch a fix every time they finish one, the servers would always be down to apply the fixes to the game. Do you actually know anything about development or how online games even work in general?
What would be the point of spending a week making a temp fix, in stead of actually working on the real fix, to then throw it in the bin a week down the line when you have the real fix ready.

How about people get some patience and stop crying over every little thing like their life is going to end if they can't match the top dps of another build.

Thunderchief · June 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

I've been hard on ZOS for the games shortcomings but they truly did create a beautiful game with a lot of potential.

I feel the same way or I wouldn't have brought up this discussion, instead it would have been one of those goodbye posts like the many you see get closed on these forums everyday. I don't like looking at my guild roster and seeing the names of those people who convinced me to play this game sinking lower and lower due to inactivity. Those were people who were passionate and excited about this game. What happened.

kirnmalidus · June 2014

Yes things need work. Yes I wish my Nightblade was more competitive. But I'm willing to be patient.

Do we already forget Cragfail?

Please give them time to do proper diagnoses, QA, regression testing, etc.

TRIP233 · June 2014

Wall of Texts on an issue the developers are already working on. Reads more like a rant then anything else.

Thunderchief · June 2014

EliteZ wrote: »

What would be the point of spending a week making a temp fix, in stead of actually working on the real fix, to then throw it in the bin a week down the line when you have the real fix ready.

Yes! Thank you for understanding. Now imagine how they took 2 months come up with a temp fix and may take another 2 months to actually implement it only to scrap it when they actually do come up with a real solution.

A real solution would be more than just changing damage stats, stamina costs or armor passives, it should involve either making a new "energy" bar for block and such or perhaps a new ability allowing you to to allocate the cost for such things to magicka. I believe these are two of the most popular suggestions being offered up by the community.

Mablung · June 2014

kirnmalidus wrote: »

Yes things need work. Yes I wish my Nightblade was more competitive. But I'm willing to be patient.

Do we already forget Cragfail?

Please give them time to do proper diagnoses, QA, regression testing, etc.

Isn't this what beta testing is for? I see a lot of posts here excusing the state of the game. I wonder if those making such excuses do so with everything they purchase.

I also keep seeing the regurgitated argument that all games are released this way. That is just a lie. Name me one successful game that was released in a similar state? No game company wants to release a product in the state that this one was released in. None. Zippo. Games released with the amount of issues this one has (still has most of the same issues 3 months in) do not last long and if it is a new IP, forget about it.

The only thing this game has going for it as far as potential is the name and company behind it has deep, deep pockets. So yes in time the game issues may get ironed out. Let's just hope that the remaining customers have tons of patience.

Evergnar · June 2014

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

The game will be ready for release late 2014 or early 2015. Most MMO's release in this state. If your trion you are fast fix things quick have an open book, acknowledge your games shortcoming s immediately and keep a break neck content pace while holding monthly Live events Albiet shallow but still new dynamic content.
If your ESO you have a beautiful engine one server and a very unfriendly toolset that wont allow live fixes or changes. a very very poorly tested end game and a video game press that lead you to the Guilottine way before launch.
I've been hard on ZOS for the games shortcomings but they truly did create a beautiful game with a lot of potential.
Unfortunately i dont think much of the player base has patience for the imbalance issue or phasing problems. Combine that with the poor itemization in the duck taped end game retention at the 90 day mark will be very poor. Worse then AOC that lost 40% in the first 60. a Rift scenario would have been desirable with a 70 percent Retention at 90 and hovered at it for about a year.

Well said and pretty much how I see it too. I still see ESO in somewhat of beta type/pre release stage which is why I'd like to see them go ahead and experiment on us with changes sooner rather than later.

*random rambling
Zos reminds me of my 10 yr old nephew at times. He has some fears of failing so he works very hard to come up with these elaborate master plans that he is sure will keep him from failing. He'll contemplate and work on them for days/weeks at time until he's sure they are fail proof.

Then he goes to implement them and they crash and burn. He gets so disappointed because he worked so hard on them. The problem is he just doesn't have the experience or knowledge to pull off such elaborate master plans. He can be pretty stubborn and won't listen to anybody. So you can see his failure coming but there's nothing you can do about it.

I continually encourage him to try new things and to not be afraid to fail. That with failure comes experience gained. I tell him that it's ok to fail. That what is more important is what you learn from those failures and how you bounce back from them.

Thunderchief · June 2014

Evergnar wrote: »

Zos reminds me of my 10 yr old nephew at times. He has some fears of failing so he works very hard to come up with these elaborate master plans that he is sure will keep him from failing. He'll contemplate and work on them for days/weeks at time until he's sure they are fail proof.

Then he goes to implement them and they crash and burn. He gets so disappointed because he worked so hard on them. The problem is he just doesn't have the experience or knowledge to pull off such elaborate master plans. He can be pretty stubborn and won't listen to anybody. So you can see his failure coming but there's nothing you can do about it.

I'm sure nephew would have a great career as a super villain!

IceDread · June 2014

Mablung wrote: »

It appears to me that they just comment out their bugged code and use layers of code versus modules which can create conflict of course that lie dormant until a specific process is flagged/triggered. Of course this is speculation on my part. The initial code appears to be bugged and loaded with errors which obviously is not an easy fix, especially if you are not using modules. But I confess to knowing very little in what processes it takes to code a video game.

Yes, it appears they have a lot of spaghetti code. If they'd have a decent architecture they'd be much further along by now instead it looks like most progress it at a near standstill at the moment.

dastone · June 2014

Big obvious balance issues in this game everyone sees it yet very little has been done. The suggested fixes are insignificant and the real fixes easy.

I think the op point is pretty well written and valid

What is up with the code talk? Does not take any code to post corrective actions to be taken

Elgarr · June 2014

Sorry op, seems what few fanboys are left are posting here.

I get what you are saying, you will never change those fanboys minds who are a massive reason why the game is in time state it is.

Just like swtor they ignored the problems for to long, then finally when most had left and just a few fanboys remained, they announced in less than a year of release the game was going F2P (they tried so hard to put a spin on it like it was a good thing lol)

Sorry but this game was pushed back once, and should have been pushed back again, yet certain people didn't have the balls to stand up to those who forced the issue.

Now I have one question to the idiot/s who made the decision to release when they did.

How's that working out for you?!

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · June 2014

I can say that for the game studios I know of (I won't be naming them, because it is most likely a problem with the entire industry, seeing how these are successful top tier studios), the programmers work in a stressful, cost trimmed production chain with code that is a mix of old and new and very badly designed, doing fast fixes and additions without proper structure or planning. The typically wade around in a big mess of badly managed, ugly C++ with maybe hundreds of different authors, many of them with very little formal training and not enough experience, each using their own favorite coding style and never writing any comments or documentation. As a result, the code base is bloated, bug-ridden and full of old cruft where nobody knows who wrote it or how it actually works, and they are never given time to refactor stuff that they see is broken or error prone because of bad planning and/or incompetence a few years back. Formal testing takes too much time and is not even considered, and QA on the source code level is limited to someone taking a look at their buddy's code and saying "whatever, looks OK to me, I'm sure you know what you are doing, no time to look into the details".

I am not exaggerating. Game engine programming is probably the last bastion for 1990's style "brute force and ignorance" coding. Any other field of software production is way more mature today. So, to those of you who think that ESO must surely be coded in a modular and well structured fashion using modern software design methods: it probably isn't. It is most likely a mess on the inside, and there are signs of that on the outside.

This is not in any way special to ZOS. It's how games programming is done in general at the moment, and a huge and complex game like an MMO RPG takes a stronger hit to quality from this than, say, a small online FPS or a single player RPG.

Disclaimer: The game studios I know anything about do not include ZOS, so this is just speculation on my part when it comes to ESO. But I guess you could say it's "based on a true story".

Maverick827 · June 2014

I'm amused by people who think programming is always complex.

It would take minutes to implement the stamina changes.

dastone · June 2014

And the point of the coding lesson is?

How about we intend to do x y and z

Then they can whine about the code

Haxer · June 2014

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO wrote: »

... each using their own favorite coding style and never writing any comments or documentation...

That's called job security XD Make yourself difficult to replace cuz no one else can read or manage your work.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · June 2014

That's called job security XD Make yourself difficult to replace cuz no one else can read or manage your work.

LOL yes. But on a serious note, yes, that is how you go about making yourself irreplaceable where happy hacking is allowed like it was 1995. However, it does make your company produce bad code, and you will go down with the company.

In any modern job in programming outside of game production, that kind of coding is a reason for termination, and code produced in this manner will be scrapped without even a hint of hesitation if you have anything resembling a modern QA and testing process.

trucqulent · June 2014

I would assume you have no concept of what an mmo is, or what game development entails.

No mmo in history, ever, has "fixed" all the items you've complained about in less than a 1-2 year period.

it's really that simple. balance, tuning, refining, "polish" comes over a lot of time and development after collecting and analyzing petabytes of data.

OrangeTheCat · June 2014

Mablung wrote: »

Honestly, I only read the first paragraph since it seemed to be a rant. I then proceeded to skim over your post but never could locate the specific issue(s) you are referring to.

That's not the OP's fault, it's yours. Why did you feel you had to share your failure with us?

OP, I tend to agree with you. But I think you are over simplifying how software is created and modified.