Why is it taking so long. Serious question.

Thunderchief · June 2014

The players have known what the problems are for 2 months now. Finally you have acknowledged that you agree and that something will need to be done.

The devs have outlined some very minor changes to stamina builds that maybe perhaps possibly might be implemented in some distant indefinite patch at some time. Sounds very wishy-washy.

These minor changes are what you should have hot-fixed immediately weeks ago. These should have been something temporary to keep us happy while you researched the core problem and came up with a more permanent solution. Slight damage increases to underused skills and slight stamina reduction passives on medium armor (but nothing for heavy).

Did it really take 2 months to come up with this? Will it take another 2 months or more to implement it? When your boss heard about these changes did he pat you on the back and say "good job, it's obvious you've been working hard on this?" If I came back to my boss after 2 months and showed him 5 lines of text I'd get the sack.

Are the devs leaning back in their chairs pondering solutions all day. Do they really need to spend weeks and weeks play testing on PTS? This time right now is the most crucial time sensitive period in regards to the longevity of your game. If something isn't done soon this game that you have worked hard to create will just become a bad memory in the gaming community. Most times when people unsub from a game they don't go back. The best chance to retain players is while they still feel invested in their characters.

Do you need to test it? Get a couple of devs and a few of your friends from tamriel foundry and get on PTS and test it out over the course of an hour or two then go back and tweak any necessary changes. Then put it in the game! What are you really waiting for? A sign from heaven? Just do it already. I would rather have seen you implement these changes and make minor tweaks to the game every week or so rather than this seeming inactivity and apathy.

Your devs work at least 8 hours a day right? What do they do? Are they working on new content? If they are please tell them to stop and fix the core issues first.

Back to my original question. Why does it take so long. Do you need to find the specific line of code that you need to change? You can't seriously still be considering what exactly it is you need to change. Are you dithering and procrastinating while you bleed subs?

Every day on the forums there are dozens of new posts complaining about the same specific problems and every time a variety of suggestions are thrown up that are exactly the same as the suggestions the day before. Your options for solutions are limited. Rule out the options you don't like and find a good compromise between the options you do like.

I am quite sure that if you brought the servers down right now but said "we are doing this to reduce VR mob hit points and damage by 10%" there will be smiles all around and few VR players would complain. We would at least know that you are doing something and that it won't take months for change to happen.

Here's another idea you bring down the servers and when they come up again staff skills require stamina instead of magicka. Some people will complain, but it would solve many problems. The only reason they use magicka right now is a roleplay reason. "Hey, staves are magic so they must use magicka right?" No, it completely breaks all balance. Class skills should be magicka and weapon skills should be stamina. In this way all classes will have greater balance. You don't really need to reduce the cost of the skills to counter for utility use of stamina either. Staves are ranged weapons and staff users should not be on the frontlines dodgerolling/blocking/interrupting anyway.This is something that really should have been changed long ago before everyone jumped on to this build. Now when/if you change it everyone will be unhappy and ask for points refunds from staff and light armor trees.

I could be wrong about my suggestions above, but I don't go to work at your company and spend all day thinking about it. You do.

What would happen if you sent out an email today to all unsubbed players stating that you have made VR easier but still challenging, that you have improved stamina/magicka balance and that there is now a greater demand for healers and traditional tanks?

I bet you would see a serious increase to your sub base. $$$$ That's what.

I had high hopes for this game. My sub has been renewed today for 1 more month and I and many others will be watching for changes. Money is coming out of my pocket and going in to yours in return for a service. Please remember this.

The clock is ticking.

Mablung · June 2014

Honestly, I only read the first paragraph since it seemed to be a rant. I then proceeded to skim over your post but never could locate the specific issue(s) you are referring to.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

So, Op, you're saying your not happy with Zenimax announcing they are taking a 'slow and steady' approach to balancing, and would rather them launch massive hotfix-changes that could be even more disasterous than the working build we now have?

I mean, sure, we all WISH they were perfect. But they have made mistakes even on the little things.

Let's not push too much on them at once, please. It really can be worse. Having stamina builds broke op for a week and then hotfix rolled back because of some miscalculation comes to my mind quick.

Sturmwaffel · June 2014

Wow. Somebody is new to the MMORPG genre.

Haxer · June 2014

Mablung wrote: »

Honestly, I only read the first paragraph since it seemed to be a rant. I then proceeded to skim over your post but never could locate the specific issue(s) you are referring to.

My favorite people are those like you that think it's worthwhile to pop in and say how much they didn't read the post. If you didn't read it, then just don't say anything. You have nothing to offer.

I agree OP, and I think the apparent inactivity and lack of dialogue, is worse than the problems themselves. If we had more communication and small improvements, we'd at least know something was being done. As it is, it pretty much looks like they think all is well as is.

Doctoruniverse · June 2014

It has been stated many times by big guilds who were in the closed beta that they told the developers that the game was nowhere ready for release, yet they released it anyway.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Doctoruniverse wrote: »

It has been stated many times by big guilds who were in the closed beta that they told the developers that the game was nowhere ready for release, yet they released it anyway.

No MMO is ready for launch, that I've ever seen anyhow. Its usually painfully obvious that someone is pushing the launch ahead of development. They don't make these things for free.

@Haxer: we get new patches each week (sometimes more than one), new hotfixes constantly, new developer blog each month, community rep posts in these very forums about issues at hand, and reddit AVA's about twice a month or more.

I cannot see how this is considered poor communication. Are you wanting them to take their time and spend it replying to the 40,000 some-odd posts in these here forums?

Thunderchief · June 2014

Sturmwaffel wrote: »

Wow. Somebody is new to the MMORPG genre.

I'm not new to MMO's but I came to this game from another game that was in maitenance mode. I expected slow and steady there.
To be honest I haven't played an mmo at release for many years and somehow I expect much better this early on.

I purchased this game based on assertions that were made in advertising and I don't feel it has delivered yet 3 months after release.

To summarise my post. What have they been doing since release and why is it taking so long. People say it is a AAA game but I don't see AAA service.

Mablung · June 2014

Haxer wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

Honestly, I only read the first paragraph since it seemed to be a rant. I then proceeded to skim over your post but never could locate the specific issue(s) you are referring to.

My favorite people are those like you that think it's worthwhile to pop in and say how much they didn't read the post. If you didn't read it, then just don't say anything. You have nothing to offer.

I agree OP, and I think the apparent inactivity and lack of dialogue, is worse than the problems themselves. If we had more communication and small improvements, we'd at least know something was being done. As it is, it pretty much looks like they think all is well as is.

You are right. I honestly had nothing constructive to offer to this post. I was interested however and would have read the entire post had his point been presented early on, especially with a wall of text and since there are several threads related to the rant he is on.

C'est la vi.

Audigy · June 2014

It does take longer than 30 days to rewrite a gaming code especially one that was written in over 5 years and has many limitations due the "decay" of it.

You think that being a game designer and a programmer is like selling Donuts in a shop, but the truth is it isn't!

If ZO changes something in the game then this starts at the story boards, goes through the management and financial department and then lands on the desk of the actual programmers.

MMO´s have a huge amount of code, I remember that Star Citizen has several terabyte of code (yes its not optimized yet and far from ready), but still it proves the point that MMO´s are not Tetris.

I also would want that they code the game for multi core threading, that the main thread is split over all cores and multiple threads, that they fix the dark spots in the UI, that they give housing etc.

But the truth is, all this takes time. Especially in an MMO where everything works in symbiosis.

Thunderchief · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

@Haxer: we get new patches each week (sometimes more than one), new hotfixes constantly, new developer blog each month, community rep posts in these very forums about issues at hand, and reddit AVA's about twice a month or more.

More communication is always good but I prefer to see results. To be fair there have been necessary changes made, but they always seem to take to long.

Bash builds and godlike vampires were fixed but not before a few weeks of pvp campaigns were affected.

Instantly replenishing Jute nodes were fixed after weeks of bots farming them once every 2 seconds, 24 hours a day for weeks.

VR grind exploits fixed after everyone is already VR12.

Mablung · June 2014

Audigy wrote: »

It does take longer than 30 days to rewrite a gaming code especially one that was written in over 5 years and has many limitations due the "decay" of it.

You think that being a game designer and a programmer is like selling Donuts in a shop, but the truth is it isn't!

If ZO changes something in the game then this starts at the story boards, goes through the management and financial department and then lands on the desk of the actual programmers.

MMO´s have a huge amount of code, I remember that Star Citizen has several terabyte of code (yes its not optimized yet and far from ready), but still it proves the point that MMO´s are not Tetris.

I also would want that they code the game for multi core threading, that the main thread is split over all cores and multiple threads, that they fix the dark spots in the UI, that they give housing etc.

But the truth is, all this takes time. Especially in an MMO where everything works in symbiosis.

I think it is safe to assume we all have a basic understanding that coding is not something that happens automagically overnight. I do not know how you come to the assumption the OP thinks programming is like selling donuts.

Simmer down. Step away from google and just breathe.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

I believe my patience is a matter of prior experience. Some games, seeing a change takes upwards of six months or more.

When you're deep in a game, enjoying every moment of it, it's very hard to step back and see just how fast things are progressing. But with work every day, playtime, family, etc ... it doesn't feel like three months are about to pass already.

Thunderchief · June 2014

I would assume that many things that are related to game difficulty are stored in tables and not game code. These tables are looked up by the game code so that changes can be easily made without messing around with the code each time and potentially breaking something.

eg Bull Netches level 1-49 might all be the same mob but the table would have a multiplier based on level to increase the hp and damage of netches per zone/level.

You could probably modify the multipliers in the tables without touching the code at all. Something like this could be fixed by changing 1 file serverside. probably wouldn't even require a patch.

Something like changing staff skills to use stamina rather than magicka might require coding but then again maybe there are skills tables and one of the fields is 100 magicka cost and one is 0 stamina cost. Flip the numbers and you have a fix. Maybe.

I'm no developer but I would assume that once they decide to make the change implementation wouldn't take more than a day.

jeevin · June 2014

Audigy wrote: »

It does take longer than 30 days to rewrite a gaming code especially one that was written in over 5 years and has many limitations due the "decay" of it.

You think that being a game designer and a programmer is like selling Donuts in a shop, but the truth is it isn't!

If ZO changes something in the game then this starts at the story boards, goes through the management and financial department and then lands on the desk of the actual programmers.

MMO´s have a huge amount of code, I remember that Star Citizen has several terabyte of code (yes its not optimized yet and far from ready), but still it proves the point that MMO´s are not Tetris.

I also would want that they code the game for multi core threading, that the main thread is split over all cores and multiple threads, that they fix the dark spots in the UI, that they give housing etc.

But the truth is, all this takes time. Especially in an MMO where everything works in symbiosis.

They seemed to have had enough time to screw together(design,test,implement) a pvp arena build just for advertising the game at E3. Surely if the devs seriously thought their game had the issues that the player base sees every day, they would not waste time/resources to advertise a broken game to more players.

Ser Lobo · June 2014

Thunderchief wrote: »

I would assume that many things that are related to game difficulty are stored in tables and not game code. These tables are looked up by the game code so that changes can be easily made without messing around with the code each time and potentially breaking something.

eg Bull Netches level 1-49 might all be the same mob but the table would have a multiplier based on level to increase the hp and damage of netches per zone/level.

You could probably modify the multipliers in the tables without touching the code at all. Something like this could be fixed by changing 1 file serverside. probably wouldn't even require a patch.

Something like changing staff skills to use stamina rather than magicka might require coding but then again maybe there are skills tables and one of the fields is 100 magicka cost and one is 0 stamina cost. Flip the numbers and you have a fix. Maybe.

I'm no developer but I would assume that once they decide to make the change implementation wouldn't take more than a day.

Many of the changes you mention (like VR mob health), can and are hotfixed out by server pushes that aren't even made obvious to the player.

Which seems to say, in my mind, that those things that are NOT hotfixed out, are things that they feel either will have a greater impact on gameplay and need tested, or things that have issues that aren't glaringly obvious.

As armchair coders all, it's easy for us to sit back and offer number changes and whatnot.

Thunderchief · June 2014

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

What is wrong with veteran content? We dread the next fight more than we look forward to the next quest reward.

That's a quote from your sig ruze. I would estimate that 90% of players feel the same way as you. Back to the original question. What's taking them so long. Like you said they could probably reduce VR mob health overnight without us realising it. Why do they risk losing more subs instead?

Bromburak · June 2014

Thunderchief wrote: »

Why is it taking so long. Serious question

Apparently you all think developers have nothing todo but its not the case.
Unfortunately many players have no idea and experience how this business works so i know where your question is coming from.

Many things or problems that are happening live are unexpected and the resulting constructive feedback needs to be evaluated in detail and step by step to be adjusted or fixed if they come to the same conclusion like players.

In most cases they do agree with us and it has been confirmed many times.
At this point thank you to the amazing community managers like Jessica Folsom, they really keep us updated and they do an awesome job, you can see the efforts and hard work every day in this forum, spreaded in multiple threads.

Anyway the task list and interference into the current development plan is growing. As well many of the necessary changes are part of a very sensitive process in software development especially when they related to concept changes.
Thats why balancing is something that takes longer than expected because you can screw up more than you realize now. This has been communicated as well.

Zenimax has a list of features and stuff to come next , this content and changes are planned in detail and known a year ahead while different responsible teams are working on it. But unexpected stuff will always happen and priorities will be changed and this includes very time consuming evaluations and adjusting time plans and iterations. Unplanned work is very high in any MMO software cycle. No matter what you do it will just result into shifting priorities you cannot fix all issues and implement all features you want 100% in a short period.

Thats why MMOs are a very time consuming process in general.

Thunderchief · June 2014

So Bromburak, what you are saying is that unfortunately in this case ZOS won't be able to move fast enough to retain their existing sub base and will have to work harder many months in the future to get people to come back?

TheBucket · June 2014

Its funny watching people whine about things taking so long and they havent even coded a Hello World program in their life.

Only programmers would get the reference but funny nonetheless.

Its easy for players or devs to know the problem. Fixing it in a wall of integers, strings, and object oriented code is a different story. It takes time to install these things and that's only the beginning. We are talking different people using different compilers. Its a lot of work....

I think ESO is working hard. I'm impressed

emeraldbay · June 2014

honestly, despite the bugs and imbalances, I'm having a lot of fun playing this game, and I have been since release. I'm impressed with the work they've done so far, because as others have said, coding is no stroll in the park. it requires mountains of knowledge, hours of testing, writing, testing, whoops, you broke something, find it, fix it, test again- and repeat ad infinitum.

the main reason why it takes "so long" is because the developers need all of the time they can get. sure, they could rush through everything and push it all to live, but they would either end up breaking everything or completely alienating their player base. balance is a delicate thing, and it's better to slowly even the scales than to force it all at once. see, if you tip the scales too fast, some of your weights fall off, and you need to re-adjust them. this is the same; if they push big changes too fast, the builds that have been working have a chance to completely change. this forces players to re-evaluate and quickly change with it, or forever be left behind, whereas with changes in slow increments, players can take time to adapt before the next changes are pushed, and by releasing new content as well, existing players still have something to be interested in. Zenimax has proven in this way that they're in this for the long run, and not just short-term profit.

Thunderchief · June 2014

I would assume that during the testing phases of the game they would need some easy way to make changes and tweaks to variables to find what balance of player and environment stats work best. Suddenly the game is released and it is soooo difficult to tweak difficulty without breaking something.

Back at zos there is a guy behind a desk. Every day he looks at a spreadsheet that has subscription statistics on it. This spreadsheet would show how many subs are due to expire within the next week and how many resubs have occurred in the last week and for what period 1 month, 3 months etc. Another spreadsheet would attribute a portion of those subs to each of the following months to come with an income value figure for those months. In addition there might be a spreadsheet showing currently subbed players and activity of their accounts and last login date. This spreadsheet would be used to determine the likelyhood that players will resub at the end of their period.

3 months have passed and that guy is up for a quarterly review. Last time he probably presented a chart showing skyrocketing sales figures and an upward profit arrow. What is he going to present this time around I wonder.

It is this persons job to make sure that the arrow keeps pointing up but I wonder what he will put in his report as explanation for the dwindling income value of future months. This person right now should be doing everything he can to keep things from getting worse because he has someone else to answer to and his reputation in the industry is on the line.

You can tell me all you want that development needs to take time and go at their own pace but from a business standpoint time is money.

kieso · June 2014

with how jacked this game is; it does feel like they're taking their sweet time.

IceDread · June 2014

Mablung wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

It does take longer than 30 days to rewrite a gaming code especially one that was written in over 5 years and has many limitations due the "decay" of it.

You think that being a game designer and a programmer is like selling Donuts in a shop, but the truth is it isn't!

If ZO changes something in the game then this starts at the story boards, goes through the management and financial department and then lands on the desk of the actual programmers.

MMO´s have a huge amount of code, I remember that Star Citizen has several terabyte of code (yes its not optimized yet and far from ready), but still it proves the point that MMO´s are not Tetris.

I also would want that they code the game for multi core threading, that the main thread is split over all cores and multiple threads, that they fix the dark spots in the UI, that they give housing etc.

But the truth is, all this takes time. Especially in an MMO where everything works in symbiosis.

I think it is safe to assume we all have a basic understanding that coding is not something that happens automagically overnight. I do not know how you come to the assumption the OP thinks programming is like selling donuts.

Simmer down. Step away from google and just breathe.

Actually, if you know how to code proper, you build module based. That way you can swap out a module that makes use of some interfaces for another. You have specific modules that handles specific actions and rules. This makes it easy to change a system around and alter specific modules without affecting other parts of the system in unknown ways.
Less wise teams does not know how to do this, or are used to doing it their way and does not improve their standards. That is sadly common and looks like we got here.
That's my experience from banking, insurance, sales and logistic systems anyway.

Mablung · June 2014

IceDread wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

It does take longer than 30 days to rewrite a gaming code especially one that was written in over 5 years and has many limitations due the "decay" of it.

You think that being a game designer and a programmer is like selling Donuts in a shop, but the truth is it isn't!

If ZO changes something in the game then this starts at the story boards, goes through the management and financial department and then lands on the desk of the actual programmers.

MMO´s have a huge amount of code, I remember that Star Citizen has several terabyte of code (yes its not optimized yet and far from ready), but still it proves the point that MMO´s are not Tetris.

I also would want that they code the game for multi core threading, that the main thread is split over all cores and multiple threads, that they fix the dark spots in the UI, that they give housing etc.

But the truth is, all this takes time. Especially in an MMO where everything works in symbiosis.

I think it is safe to assume we all have a basic understanding that coding is not something that happens automagically overnight. I do not know how you come to the assumption the OP thinks programming is like selling donuts.

Simmer down. Step away from google and just breathe.

Actually, if you know how to code proper, you build module based. That way you can swap out a module that makes use of some interfaces for another. You have specific modules that handles specific actions and rules. This makes it easy to change a system around and alter specific modules without affecting other parts of the system in unknown ways.
Less wise teams does not know how to do this, or are used to doing it their way and does not improve their standards. That is sadly common and looks like we got here.
That's my experience from banking, insurance, sales and logistic systems anyway.

It appears to me that they just comment out their bugged code and use layers of code versus modules which can create conflict of course that lie dormant until a specific process is flagged/triggered. Of course this is speculation on my part. The initial code appears to be bugged and loaded with errors which obviously is not an easy fix, especially if you are not using modules. But I confess to knowing very little in what processes it takes to code a video game.

EliteZ · June 2014

Thunderchief wrote: »

ruze84b14_ESO wrote: »

@Haxer: we get new patches each week (sometimes more than one), new hotfixes constantly, new developer blog each month, community rep posts in these very forums about issues at hand, and reddit AVA's about twice a month or more.

More communication is always good but I prefer to see results. To be fair there have been necessary changes made, but they always seem to take to long.

Bash builds and godlike vampires were fixed but not before a few weeks of pvp campaigns were affected.

Instantly replenishing Jute nodes were fixed after weeks of bots farming them once every 2 seconds, 24 hours a day for weeks.

VR grind exploits fixed after everyone is already VR12.

What and you think they can fix these issues over night do you? No, they need to be brought to their attention first, then they need to be reproduced so the devs can actually see what's happening, then they to search thee code to find the source of the issue, then they have to plan how they are going to fix/change the issue so it's working, then they likely have to present the fix to others so everyone agree's it would be the best possible fix for the issue, then they have to have time allocated to fix it, then they have to internally test it to make sure changing that has not broken other things and then finally they can think about putting it live.

It's even worse with balancing, would you be any more happy if they buffed stam builds in a short period without proper planning which then made then so strong everybody felt that they had to use stam builds and then they are back at square one. Or you can wait patiently while they carefully plan which abilities they can change without making them too strong or making other builds people currently use weak compared to the new changes.

So it may take a week or two, who cares, the game has years ahead of it, I'm sure waiting 2 weeks for a fix really isn't that much of an issue and if it is, you really shouldn't be playing an MMO. Please name one game that has perfect class balance or fixes any broken/OP builds within days? Let's take the biggest MMO WoW, often classes there are OP for months while you wait for the new content updates.

Thunderchief · June 2014

EliteZ wrote: »

So it may take a week or two,

lol, if only it would.

Bromburak · June 2014

Thunderchief wrote: »

So Bromburak, what you are saying is that unfortunately in this case ZOS won't be able to move fast enough to retain their existing sub base and will have to work harder many months in the future to get people to come back?

No company is fast enough to satisfy all customers.

But if you think they are not working hard enough, you didn't read my previous post or you must be very ignorant when you seriously think that developers not working hard.

Its might the case that you have certain expectations and wishes, understandable for any company and customers, but it doesn't change reality of game development.

Thunderchief · June 2014

Bromburak wrote: »

But if you think they are not working hard enough, you didn't read my previous post or you must be very ignorant when you seriously think that developers not working hard.

No. I mean it will be more difficult to get people to come back later when they have moved on to other games than it would be to retain players now while they are actively playing.

Bromburak · June 2014

Sure, but this factor is calculated in every game when approving budgets for product development.

There is nothing you can do about it. If customers cannot accept the facts of development cycles in MMOs including the required durations for certain things, its their choice to continue playing or not.

If you have read the road ahead article and certain AmA and as well Jennifer Folsoms postings you would agree that Zenimax does care and that they actually have an eye on the community but it doesn't make things faster because of the facts in my first posting.

DanteYoda · June 2014

I wish i'd taken that friggin refund when it was offered at EB games, but oh no silly me...