Why are personal attacks ok from one side?

Blackwidow · June 2014

If a poster complains about the game, the mods do not stop other players from personal attacks on those posters.

Anytime you see a post about an issue with the game, you see a bunch of posters calling them trolls and QQers and whiners.

Why is this allowed?

Is it because they support ESO, so they get a free pass?

If I posted that the game still has too many bugs for being out for about three months, the proper response if you disagree would to say you feel that there are not too many bugs or something like that to defend the game.

What should not be allowed is comments like L2P, must be your first MMO, go play WoW, or any other crap.

Yet, this is common place on these threads.

If someone makes a post like "I love this game" you will see people say the game has problems or the game sucks or whatever, but in almost every case, the poster is not personally attacked, the game is.

ZOS, if you want to have this double standard because you don't want the game to look bad, try actually fixing your game instead of attacking the posters who complain about your game.

Thank you.

Examples...

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/108244/why-do-you-like-playing-eso#latest

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/108433/what-do-you-not-like-about-playing-eso/p1

ebondeath · June 2014

This is pretty much standard for most mmo forums, I think. It's a combination of defensiveness vs frustration and some people just have no interest in being constructive.

To be fair, ZOS does seem to be pretty strict and enforce their forum policies (at least in comparison to other forums I've been to). Ive seen a lot of flaming comments edited or deleted.

Soloeus · June 2014

This happens all the time. The abusive posters and cyberbullies attack anyone who doesn't like a feature of the game and I have reported many of them and watched as they are tolerated and never deleted.

This is one of the biggest issues with Forum Toxicity in this community.

Nazon_Katts · June 2014

Yep, ZOS has to step up the enforcement of the TOS quite a bit.

LariahHunding · June 2014

I have been a one-man crusade against L2Per's. Believe me I been giving just as hard a time as they give anyone else.

And the shame is most of them have good knowledge to bestow, they suck at interpersonal communication.

As far as being my first MMO, some of the players sure have cemented my idea of "professional " MMOer's.

I came to play an Elder Scrolls Game first and foremost. If they don't like it, they can GTFO instead of us.

Ohioastro · June 2014

It's very easy in forums to only see the sins of the people who disagree with you. If you actually want to change the tone, you can model appropriate behavior. This includes

1) Depersonalizing criticism. I agree with you that this boundary gets crossed.

2) Not dragging your pet peeves into every discussion. If someone posts about how they like the graphics, and you feel compelling to pop in with a complaint about nightblade balance, you're hijacking their conversation.

It's rude, and it really does give the impression that critics of the game aren't willing to allow anyone to have a positive opinion. It isn't ZoS "attacking posters complaining about their game." It's people who are enjoying the game getting very tired of the same people insisting that their (bitter, negative) views are the only valid ones about the game, and insisting that every discussion needs to be about their issues.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO · June 2014

Sadly, they will not GTFO until they have nobody left to sneer at and say "L2P noob". I just ignore them. No reason to get worked up over people you would never bother with in real life. They are not my kind of people, as much as I am not their kind of people.

Blackwidow · June 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

It's people who are enjoying the game getting very tired of the same people insisting that their (bitter, negative) views are the only valid ones about the game, and insisting that every discussion needs to be about their issues.

If you are enjoying the game, then defend the game, don't attack the poster.

That is the line that does not need to be crossed. It is not even a thin line.

LariahHunding · June 2014

Ohioastro wrote: »

It's rude, and it really does give the impression that critics of the game aren't willing to allow anyone to have a positive opinion. It isn't ZoS "attacking posters complaining about their game." It's people who are enjoying the game getting very tired of the same people insisting that their (bitter, negative) views are the only valid ones about the game, and insisting that every discussion needs to be about their issues.

I need to post more positive stuff. I been on a rampage about the VR levels, but I have been defending 1-50, posting that they make the game worth buying if you don't do any thing else.

I am passionate because, first, I love Elder Scrolls, second, the game has a huge potential if not p!ssed away. It's this potential that drives me more than anything.

MaxBat · June 2014

I used to think threads like this were crazy, but then I learned about thread sinking and other crap being pulled by Zenimax. It isn't just what side of the argument, but who you are. If you're featured as a contributor in a newsletter or forum, you appear to have free reign to do whatever you want on this forum - including insulting other players and calling them names.

Fairydragon3 · June 2014

Because most companies will not get involved because that would be the same as sinking to the Trolls Level. Honestly I ignore it when someone start calling me names in the forum, for one it's a forum. I don't really care what they think about me, I do care about what they think about the game, as it is inb the forums, and the mods to look here for our feedback, I think it is important to get both sides, the problem is that most consider this as an attack on them, but what they are really doing is trying to express their opinion, internet people just suck at that

Blackwidow · June 2014

Fairydragon3 wrote: »

Because most companies will not get involved because that would be the same as sinking to the Trolls Level. Honestly I ignore it when someone start calling me names in the forum, for one it's a forum. I don't really care what they think about me, I do care about what they think about the game, as it is inb the forums, and the mods to look here for our feedback, I think it is important to get both sides, the problem is that most consider this as an attack on them, but what they are really doing is trying to express their opinion, internet people just suck at that

Keeping insults out of the forums would not make them look like trolls. It would keep the forums friendly and respectful.

As for your comment about how posters take it as an insult on them, it is because it IS an insult on them.

Me: I think the graphics suck

Poster: You suck. Go back to WoW.

This is a personal attack and comments like this are allowed to stay on the forums.

Lalai · June 2014

I honestly see the personal attacks from the same people on both sides. It doesn't just come from one side.. and one side doesn't get a free pass. If you happen to be on one side, then of course you're going to take more notice when the side you're on gets attacked.

I notice just as many people getting called fanboys or white knights.. or even being told they're stupid or idiotic for enjoying the game, as I do folks getting called trolls, or being told to L2P/go back to WoW.. and on either side it seems to always be the same people.

This isn't a problem with the forum, it's a problem with the type of people that visit and post on MMO forums now-a-days.

The whole thread sinking thing is a little BS (well a lot BS, really).. but it has very little to do with name calling. The fanboy/white knight comments get as much of a free pass as those saying L2P/go play WoW.

daneyulebub17_ESO · June 2014

Trolls tend to attack, insult and harshly criticize just to cause grief, behavior that can easily be confused with legitimate criticism--it's therefore quite understandable for people to assume those taking the time to post negative things about a game they don't seem to like and often admit to not play anymore--are trolls, even when they sometimes aren't. Its natural to question their underlying motives.

Not so much the other way around--I'm not likely to suspect someone saying they love the game as being a troll, nor am I likely to question their underlying motives when they react harshly to people saying otherwise (usually repeatedly, and sarcastically, and with all kinds of subjective assumptions) on the game's forums.

Blackwidow · June 2014

Lalai wrote: »

I honestly see the personal attacks from the same people on both sides. It doesn't just come from one side.. and one side doesn't get a free pass. If you happen to be on one side, then of course you're going to take more notice when the side you're on gets attacked.

I notice just as many people getting called fanboys or white knights.. or even being told they're stupid or idiotic for enjoying the game, as I do folks getting called trolls, or being told to L2P/go back to WoW.. and on either side it seems to always be the same people.

This isn't a problem with the forum, it's a problem with the type of people that visit and post on MMO forums now-a-days.

The whole thread sinking thing is a little BS.. but it has very little to do with name calling. The fanboy/white knight comments get as much of a free pass as those saying L2P/go play WoW.

Please show me a thread where this is true.

Blackwidow · June 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

Trolls tend to attack, insult and harshly criticize just to cause grief, behavior that can easily be confused with legitimate criticism--it's therefore quite understandable for people to assume those taking the time to post negative things about a game they don't seem to like and often admit to not play anymore--are trolls, even when they sometimes aren't. Its natural to question their underlying motives.

That is no excuse to insult them.

Not so much the other way around--I'm not likely to suspect someone saying they love the game as being a troll,

Why?

LariahHunding · June 2014

Whether just or not, it does seem that positive comments are slammed harder than negative comments about the game. This coming from Mr. Negativity.

daneyulebub17_ESO · June 2014

Not so much the other way around--I'm not likely to suspect someone saying they love the game as being a troll,

Why?

Seems pretty self-explanatory, but...ok.

This is a forum for ESO. Saying nice things about the game here is not trollish behavior--as I mentioned, trollish behavior is usually harsh criticism, snarky sarcasm, insults. Sometimes it's just screwing with people to get a reaction.

Now--if I went to a SWtoR forum and posted nice things about ESO, that would be trolling, or at least easily construed as such.

Context is everything.

GreySix · June 2014

Personal attacks or ad homonim attacks are never exusable, for any reason.

Lalai · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

Lalai wrote: »

I honestly see the personal attacks from the same people on both sides. It doesn't just come from one side.. and one side doesn't get a free pass. If you happen to be on one side, then of course you're going to take more notice when the side you're on gets attacked.

I notice just as many people getting called fanboys or white knights.. or even being told they're stupid or idiotic for enjoying the game, as I do folks getting called trolls, or being told to L2P/go back to WoW.. and on either side it seems to always be the same people.

This isn't a problem with the forum, it's a problem with the type of people that visit and post on MMO forums now-a-days.

The whole thread sinking thing is a little BS.. but it has very little to do with name calling. The fanboy/white knight comments get as much of a free pass as those saying L2P/go play WoW.

Please show me a thread where this is true.

Honestly, just go into any thread with a positive title and within a few posts you're going to see people telling the person being positive that they're going to hate the game later (which is the same as telling someone L2P or go play WoW.. because you're telling them they're going to learn to hate the game). Literally any positive thread.. heck even threads like the one where people were suppose to say what their worst experience was that wasn't ESO and people came in to bash it.

There has also been a ton of talk about how fanboys destroy the game. Fanboy this and fanboy that because they think the game is perfect.. and yet I've never, not once, seen anyone say the game was perfect, didn't have bugs, or didn't need some fixing/balance. Heck, just do a search for the word "fanboy"... or "white knight". Or go to a thread talking about how the game is dying and point out that there could be other reasons for laying off employees, or that anecdotal evidence doesn't really work for hard numbers.. you'll be called a fanboy real quick.

Like I said, the hate comes from both sides, as does the name calling.. and most of the time it's given a pass to go on existing. The only posts which seem to get moderated are those that use very specific words (usually profanity, or straight up calling someone an idiot). If you're only seeing it from one side, it's likely cause you're biased towards that side and thus feel attacked when it happens. When it happens to the other side you don't see it, or don't remember it because it's not a negative experience for you personally.

ErilAq · June 2014

If anything, I think the Negative posts are by their very nature negative. This brings out tempers on both sides (one side desperately clinging to their viewpoint being challenged, while the other vehemently whittles it down) this causes frustration on both sides, leading to name calling. While in the positive posts, the one negative is in the minority, and people tend to overlook it as an outlier. (basically, mob mentality) It's the same with Politics; if everything is nice the opposition is viewed as a silly distraction, if everything is going to hell in a hand basket tempers flare up and fights occur) It's human nature to respond negatively to negative stimuli and positively to positive stimuli.

MasterSpatula · June 2014

I think it says more about who is drawn to which sides of the argument than about any policy decisions. If you are a reasonable person and you see someone whining, moaning, and generally throwing a tantrum, you might poke a little fun at them, but you'd do it in a way intended to show them they need to calm down.

If you're a smug, self-important jackass who gets a sense of superiority by being better than others at a video game, you're going to act like a smug, self-important jackass. You're not going to present constructive arguments or instructions on how one could make better use of the game mechanics; you're going to say "L2P." You're not going to suggest calm and reasonable debate; you're going to accuse anyone who suggests a change of "whining" and "crying." And the craziest thing of all is that you're going to treat the people who are being reasonable and thoughtful exactly the same as those who are actually whining, because you're not interested in a reasonable debate; you're interested only in your own false sense of superiority.

And if you are truly irredeemable, a person with simply no goodness in you whatsoever, you're going to break out the term "QQ."

UrQuan · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

If a poster complains about the game, the mods do not stop other players from personal attacks on those posters.

Either L2P or go back to WoW noob. Either way, stop being such a whiny troll.

PS. In case anyone can't tell, this is meant as a joke.

Blackwidow · June 2014

Lalai wrote: »

Honestly, just go into any thread with a positive title and within a few posts you're going to see people telling the person being positive that they're going to hate the game later

Positive:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/108244/why-do-you-like-playing-eso#latest

Negative:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/108433/what-do-you-not-like-about-playing-eso/p1

(which is the same as telling someone L2P or go play WoW.. because you're telling them they're going to learn to hate the game).

Saying the game is going to get worse is a complaint about the end game. It is not an insult to the player.

It is absolutely not the same as "Go play woW" or L2P.

Blackwidow · June 2014

ErilAq wrote: »

If anything, I think the Negative posts are by their very nature negative.

Is it possible to look at posts having issues with the game as a positive thing that can help make the game better?

cigarsmoker · June 2014

I do my very best to never attack the poster, but I think it's the frustration of playing a game that is broken in some very sever ways that's bringing out the worst in people.

Try playing a Nightblade for a week or three and you'll be just as frustrated if not more so than the rest of us

Blackwidow · June 2014

Ur-Quan wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

If a poster complains about the game, the mods do not stop other players from personal attacks on those posters.

Either L2P or go back to WoW noob. Either way, stop being such a whiny troll.

PS. In case anyone can't tell, this is meant as a joke.

The judges will allow it.

hk11 · June 2014

I have a lot of opinions which may be misconstrued as not liking the game (although that is not the case, I do like it), but it's sort of lowbrow to use personal attacks in a debate.

Blackwidow · June 2014

MasterSpatula wrote: »

I think it says more about who is drawn to which sides of the argument than about any policy decisions. If you are a reasonable person and you see someone whining, moaning, and generally throwing a tantrum, you might poke a little fun at them, but you'd do it in a way intended to show them they need to calm down.

If you're a smug, self-important jackass who gets a sense of superiority by being better than others at a video game, you're going to act like a smug, self-important jackass. You're not going to present constructive arguments or instructions on how one could make better use of the game mechanics; you're going to say "L2P." You're not going to suggest calm and reasonable debate; you're going to accuse anyone who suggests a change of "whining" and "crying." And the craziest thing of all is that you're going to treat the people who are being reasonable and thoughtful exactly the same as those who are actually whining, because you're not interested in a reasonable debate; you're interested only in your own false sense of superiority.

And if you are truly irredeemable, a person with simply no goodness in you whatsoever, you're going to break out the term "QQ."

Well said.

Maverick827 · June 2014

What do you expect from the moderation team that sinks negative threads?

The ESO forums are the worst place to discuss ESO. Unfortunately, all of the fan sites are dead because the game flopped.

UrQuan · June 2014

Blackwidow wrote: »

ErilAq wrote: »

If anything, I think the Negative posts are by their very nature negative.

Is it possible to look at posts having issues with the game as a positive thing that can help make the game better?

It depends on the post. If it's written in a reasonable, well thought out manner, then yes absolutely. If the post having issues with the game is written more along the lines of "ZOMG this SUX" then no, absolutely not.