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the ideal one change that would improve Melee weapons and stamina builds overall.
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NerfEverything✭✭✭✭✭No it wouldn't, because that still doesn't address one of the fundamental issues with stamina builds ... which is the fact you are using your combat resource (stamina) to fuel dodging, running, blocking etc which is not a problem for Magicka builds.
Actually it does. You seem to fail to see the big picture.
Yes stamina is used to mitigate incoming damage. Increasing DPS of stamina build adds depth to the playstyle by forcing players do balance their outgoing DPS with the incoming damage through stamina management. This is exactly how stamina builds should be played. This also partially solves the problem of useless Templars. If you have a Templar in your group to heal through incoming damage, your group can use stamina to increase DPS instead of mitigate incoming damage.
OP is right, this is a simple change that will do a lot to balance the game overall.
I understand that this is a lot of people's first MMO, it is Zen's first MMO too. But the problem is not that hard. It baffles me that so many people can't see the big picture.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
You do realize theres pvp in this game? 250% crit damage is insane. You just wouldnt be able to balance that kind of burst.
One change Id like to see is them implementing a 3rd resource pool for block/dodge/sprint/etc. Once thats in... they could start tweaking things to achieve proper balance.Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on June 19, 2014 6:05PMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.1 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭
Buff them by 20%, im not gonna complain, but do you think its balanced?
Need moar stamina, not moar dmg!0 -
Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
You do realize theres pvp in this game? 250% crit damage is insane. You just wouldnt be able to balance that kind of burst.
Another poster already mentioned The impenetrable trait i believe....
As they put it...Sounds more like a (bad) workaround than a fix to the real problem.
Also, everyone wearing impenetrable armor would make it pointless.
I play every class in every situation. I love them all.0 -
NerfEverything✭✭✭✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
You do realize theres pvp in this game? 250% crit damage is insane. You just wouldnt be able to balance that kind of burst.
Great point. You can't balance PvE and PvP. This is why every other MMO with both PvE and PvP has additional stats that are used exclusively to balance PvP.
Just another essential thing that Zen totally failed to realize is required in an MMO.0 -
Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭NerfEverything wrote: »khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
You do realize theres pvp in this game? 250% crit damage is insane. You just wouldnt be able to balance that kind of burst.
Great point. You can't balance PvE and PvP. This is why every other MMO with both PvE and PvP has additional stats that are used exclusively to balance PvP.
Just another essential thing that Zen totally failed to realize is required in an MMO.
again, the Crit Resistance Trait for armor has already been pointed out to be a good counter against this while in PVP.I play every class in every situation. I love them all.0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
If you're a stamina build you use stamina for skills - isn't that what you people want? You however seem to want to have it all, sorry there has to be tradeoff - you can't have a massive stamina pool AND be able to dip into your massive magicka pool as well, it'd just be the same as magicka builds have it now - use one resource for skills and the other for dodging and blocking...and what's more it'd be a choice - you'd have to be using the toggle skill on your bar to make that happen. Against choices too as well as against freeing your skill resource pool up?Edited by babylon on June 19, 2014 6:15PM0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭Because your gear... oooooops i was being unpolite.
Because you should buff your Weapon Damage (Power) with glyphs.
And slot FD... but now im giving away my (well known by anyone) secrets.
And use HR + NM set, even if someone says its "bugged".
And forgive me for too much editing.Edited by Gisgo on June 19, 2014 6:28PM0 -
trueche✭✭I think they just need to increase the damage of stam abilities to compensate. Yeah, they may have more burst (probably are par with the magika builds actually), but they will have to choose. Either use all their stam for burst and risk being defenseless or save some and risk not killing the target out right. This could be a good balance as magika users would never have to make this choice, but risk being hit harder by the stamina builds. I dunno, just something off the top of my head.0 -
Shaun98ca2 wrote: »People DONT understand to truly fatal flaw in trying to make Stamina builds as strong as Magicka builds.
Magicka relies on its resource FOR those big Numbers.
Stamina on the other hand has the benefit of increased Light/Heavy Attack Damage.
You NEVER run out of Light/Heavy Attack. So IF Stamina builds are producing damage as high as Magicka then running out of the resource and STILL producing good numbers or say better numbers than a Magicka build without its resource theres a problem.
Magicka and Stamina have an initial balance.
Magicka produces Big numbers for a limited time till the resource runs out. Once out of the resource it produces terrible numbers.
Stamina produces Less than a Magicka build with its resource. Stamina without its resource is having better numbers than Magicka without its resource.
Thus creating a balance. Stamina DOESNT have to use Stamina abilities to be good it can rely on its Light/Heavy Attack for damage, leaving the ability to use Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break MORE often. You can still use Stamina abilities but they are for the most part more situational than dependent for damage.
You can use all your Stamina FOR more damage but that's not the builds actual strength. Long term consistent damage IS. What they should do and probably already HAVE done is added DPS checks that can only be defeated with strong Stamina builds.
The issue is certain Magicka builds DONT run out of Magicka.
Your flaw is thinking that light and heavy attacks do good dmg. At least for Bow my light attacks do about150ish dmg my heavy attacks range from 350 to 650 depending how close I am and if I am stealthed and so on.
I would like to see my light attacks doing 300 ish and heavy attacks doing 500-9000 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭when i get knocked down (which is allways) its over within 3 seconds.
dragonights have that fist knockdown spell and sorcerers have that crystal shard thing both of them knock me down and i stay down, immediatly they begin damage dealing me and within 1 -3 seconds im dead.
the only knock down we have is the concieled weapon *which is an ultimate that constantly disapiers* -rendering it almost allways unavailable-
and in the siphoning tree called prolonged suffering which really does not work cause they immediate break out of that and knock us down instead.
we need a knock down to be equilivant to thier knock down. and we just dont have it.0 -
Buff them by 20%, im not gonna complain, but do you think its balanced?
Need moar stamina, not moar dmg!
the soft caps are different for pve and pvp.
also... that flying blade has severely overcharged stamina and weapon power.
http://esohead.com/skills/38910-flying-blade
If its really an issue I'm sure the 200% crit dam could be made to only apply to light/heavy attacks. maybe it could be 170% crit dam and you'd need shadow + nb hemorage to get close to 200%NerfEverything wrote: »khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
You do realize theres pvp in this game? 250% crit damage is insane. You just wouldnt be able to balance that kind of burst.
Great point. You can't balance PvE and PvP. This is why every other MMO with both PvE and PvP has additional stats that are used exclusively to balance PvP.
Just another essential thing that Zen totally failed to realize is required in an MMO.
the soft caps are different for pve and pvp.
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Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭in my opinion this is intentional. zenimax does not care cause if they did it would never have left beta that way. it was complained about now for over a year and thier responce is that thier looking into it but we never see anything but comments about that they know and stuff. but no changes!
we can sit here all day long for months on end claiming what should be fixed with our class but truth is they dont give a crap about it and it's never going to change!0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭arrowzagub17_ESO wrote: »Shaun98ca2 wrote: »People DONT understand to truly fatal flaw in trying to make Stamina builds as strong as Magicka builds.
Magicka relies on its resource FOR those big Numbers.
Stamina on the other hand has the benefit of increased Light/Heavy Attack Damage.
You NEVER run out of Light/Heavy Attack. So IF Stamina builds are producing damage as high as Magicka then running out of the resource and STILL producing good numbers or say better numbers than a Magicka build without its resource theres a problem.
Magicka and Stamina have an initial balance.
Magicka produces Big numbers for a limited time till the resource runs out. Once out of the resource it produces terrible numbers.
Stamina produces Less than a Magicka build with its resource. Stamina without its resource is having better numbers than Magicka without its resource.
Thus creating a balance. Stamina DOESNT have to use Stamina abilities to be good it can rely on its Light/Heavy Attack for damage, leaving the ability to use Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break MORE often. You can still use Stamina abilities but they are for the most part more situational than dependent for damage.
You can use all your Stamina FOR more damage but that's not the builds actual strength. Long term consistent damage IS. What they should do and probably already HAVE done is added DPS checks that can only be defeated with strong Stamina builds.
The issue is certain Magicka builds DONT run out of Magicka.
Your flaw is thinking that light and heavy attacks do good dmg. At least for Bow my light attacks do about150ish dmg my heavy attacks range from 350 to 650 depending how close I am and if I am stealthed and so on.
I would like to see my light attacks doing 300 ish and heavy attacks doing 500-900
Your Light/Heavy Attacks probably CAN get that good with pushing Stamina Closer to hard cap.
Even 350 - 650 ish is DAMN good for the fact you DONT run out of Light/Heavy Attacks.
What do you think the Light/Heavy Attack of a Magicka user is with NO points in Stamina or Weapon Damage.
Probably MUCH weaker.0 -
Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »arrowzagub17_ESO wrote: »Shaun98ca2 wrote: »People DONT understand to truly fatal flaw in trying to make Stamina builds as strong as Magicka builds.
Magicka relies on its resource FOR those big Numbers.
Stamina on the other hand has the benefit of increased Light/Heavy Attack Damage.
You NEVER run out of Light/Heavy Attack. So IF Stamina builds are producing damage as high as Magicka then running out of the resource and STILL producing good numbers or say better numbers than a Magicka build without its resource theres a problem.
Magicka and Stamina have an initial balance.
Magicka produces Big numbers for a limited time till the resource runs out. Once out of the resource it produces terrible numbers.
Stamina produces Less than a Magicka build with its resource. Stamina without its resource is having better numbers than Magicka without its resource.
Thus creating a balance. Stamina DOESNT have to use Stamina abilities to be good it can rely on its Light/Heavy Attack for damage, leaving the ability to use Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break MORE often. You can still use Stamina abilities but they are for the most part more situational than dependent for damage.
You can use all your Stamina FOR more damage but that's not the builds actual strength. Long term consistent damage IS. What they should do and probably already HAVE done is added DPS checks that can only be defeated with strong Stamina builds.
The issue is certain Magicka builds DONT run out of Magicka.
Your flaw is thinking that light and heavy attacks do good dmg. At least for Bow my light attacks do about150ish dmg my heavy attacks range from 350 to 650 depending how close I am and if I am stealthed and so on.
I would like to see my light attacks doing 300 ish and heavy attacks doing 500-900
Your Light/Heavy Attacks probably CAN get that good with pushing Stamina Closer to hard cap.
Even 350 - 650 ish is DAMN good for the fact you DONT run out of Light/Heavy Attacks.
What do you think the Light/Heavy Attack of a Magicka user is with NO points in Stamina or Weapon Damage.
Probably MUCH weaker.
i actually tested this, a differance of 250+ only amounts to 2 extra damage on light attacks or so... this is a increase from 1.2k to 1.5k or so. The differance stamina has on basic attacks is negligible....
since staff attacks are about the same in damage or greater than swings with a 2 handed weapon....
again, stamina builds hold no real advantage over magicka.I play every class in every situation. I love them all.0 -
DDemon✭✭✭✭Let stamina only be used as a resource pool for the weapon skills and increased damage.
Add a 4th resource pool that can be used for all CC breaking and running abilities. This resource pool can be increased by putting points into stamina.
This way may sound a bit rough, but there's room for improvement or tweaks.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Let stamina only be used as a resource pool for the weapon skills and increased damage.
Add a 4th resource pool that can be used for all CC breaking and running abilities. This resource pool can be increased by putting points into stamina.
This way may sound a bit rough, but there's room for improvement or tweaks.
Thats not bad. How about you base it on whichever resource is higher and make resource specific animations for it? In that case a magicka build would have a utility resource pool scaling of the magicka stat, with blocking presented as holding up a hand with a transparent shield forming in front of the char and dodging would be shown as a short range teleport/blink/shadowstep, sprint would kinda blur your character a bit, or add lightning sparks at your feet, etc. Stamina builds would basically keep their current animations. Yes, it would require some effort from the devs, but I think the result would be pretty cool.Edited by khele23eb17_ESO on June 20, 2014 4:09AMP2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Let stamina only be used as a resource pool for the weapon skills and increased damage.
Add a 4th resource pool that can be used for all CC breaking and running abilities. This resource pool can be increased by putting points into stamina.
This way may sound a bit rough, but there's room for improvement or tweaks.
Thats not bad. How about you base it on whichever resource is higher and make resource specific animations for it? In that case a magicka build would have a utility resource pool scaling of the magicka stat, with blocking presented as holding up a hand with a transparent shield forming in front of the char and dodging would be shown as a short range teleport/blink/shadowstep, sprint would kinda blur your character a bit, or add lightning sparks at your feet, etc. Stamina builds would basically keep their current animations. Yes, it would require some effort from the devs, but I think the result would be pretty cool.
the problem with these kind of changes is that they are MASSIVE changes, the kind that cannot be done quickly or will be done any time soon.
By compairison, altering crit damage is something that requires little change, and offers good benefit.
i am not saying this kind of thing is a bad idea, i personally prefer the additonal Bar methoid for sprint, dodge, blocking etc. but i know that kind of a change is not going to happen in the next year or so.Edited by Hypertionb14_ESO on June 20, 2014 4:18AMI play every class in every situation. I love them all.0 -
khele23eb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Let stamina only be used as a resource pool for the weapon skills and increased damage.
Add a 4th resource pool that can be used for all CC breaking and running abilities. This resource pool can be increased by putting points into stamina.
This way may sound a bit rough, but there's room for improvement or tweaks.
Thats not bad. How about you base it on whichever resource is higher and make resource specific animations for it? In that case a magicka build would have a utility resource pool scaling of the magicka stat, with blocking presented as holding up a hand with a transparent shield forming in front of the char and dodging would be shown as a short range teleport/blink/shadowstep, sprint would kinda blur your character a bit, or add lightning sparks at your feet, etc. Stamina builds would basically keep their current animations. Yes, it would require some effort from the devs, but I think the result would be pretty cool.
the problem with these kind of changes is that they are MASSIVE changes, the kind that cannot be done quickly or will be done any time soon.
By compairison, altering crit damage is something that requires little change, and offers good benefit.
i am not saying this kind of thing is a bad idea, i personally prefer the additonal Bar methoid for sprint, dodge, blocking etc. but i know that kind of a change is not going to happen in the next year or so.
The animation part, yes, thats not something that would be possible to do right away. But would it really require a few months of work to add the extra resource pool and tie utility/survival actions to it?P2P offered you 'hell yeah!' moments. F2P offers you 'thank god its over' moments.0 -
aleister✭✭✭✭khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
You do realize theres pvp in this game? 250% crit damage is insane. You just wouldnt be able to balance that kind of burst.
Agree. This is a complex problem and the solution will not be as simple as buffing/nerfing a single variable like crit chance.0
