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the ideal one change that would improve Melee weapons and stamina builds overall.
Hypertionb14_ESO
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increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
To clarify since everyone so far has expected this to be the "solves all problems" this idea is simply AN IMPROVEMENT TO THE DAMAGE ASPECTS OF STAMINA ABILITIES. Currently even before using gear, spell casting is better in this aspect already.
Other changes are still needed, and i dont think the developers considered the fact that having Dodge, Block, Etc on the stamina like it was in previous Elder Scrolls games would effect the weapon skills and builds focused around them like it did in this game.
I thought i would add here too, Remember, players in PVP can and often will use the Impenetrable Trait on armor, which can dramatically lessen the effect of critical hits on them. So its not really going to throw out the balance there in all honestly.
Edited by Hypertionb14_ESO on June 19, 2014 6:07PM thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
To clarify since everyone so far has expected this to be the "solves all problems" this idea is simply AN IMPROVEMENT TO THE DAMAGE ASPECTS OF STAMINA ABILITIES. Currently even before using gear, spell casting is better in this aspect already.
Other changes are still needed, and i dont think the developers considered the fact that having Dodge, Block, Etc on the stamina like it was in previous Elder Scrolls games would effect the weapon skills and builds focused around them like it did in this game.
I thought i would add here too, Remember, players in PVP can and often will use the Impenetrable Trait on armor, which can dramatically lessen the effect of critical hits on them. So its not really going to throw out the balance there in all honestly.
I play every class in every situation. I love them all.
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Lox✭✭✭No it wouldn't, because that still doesn't address one of the fundamental issues with stamina builds ... which is the fact you are using your combat resource (stamina) to fuel dodging, running, blocking etc which is not a problem for Magicka builds.4 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.No it wouldn't, because that still doesn't address one of the fundamental issues with stamina builds ... which is the fact you are using your combat resource (stamina) to fuel dodging, running, blocking etc which is not a problem for Magicka builds.
I'm very surprised that people are disagreeing on the internet.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points2 -
Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭No it wouldn't, because that still doesn't address one of the fundamental issues with stamina builds ... which is the fact you are using your combat resource (stamina) to fuel dodging, running, blocking etc which is not a problem for Magicka builds.
Are you really arguing against a 100% positive buff to melee combat in general?
Yes its annoying to have to conserve your stamina, but even beyond that most stamina builds don't deal the damage a mage build can anyways. Even if all those things had their own "manuver" bar you would deal less damage than a mage would. This has been tested and proven a hundred times over.
Buffing damage in a broad fashion is a first step, one that can be easily done to dramatically improve gameplay.I play every class in every situation. I love them all.0 -
Adramelach✭✭✭No it wouldn't, because that still doesn't address one of the fundamental issues with stamina builds ... which is the fact you are using your combat resource (stamina) to fuel dodging, running, blocking etc which is not a problem for Magicka builds.
This is the real issue, and in fact has two parts. First, what was just said, that other skills are draining off stamina in a way that does not "tax" magicka, and is thus inherently unbalanced.
Second, from what I see, stamina doesn't benefit as much from equipment and other buffs that reduce cost of skills and increase regen and totals. I haven't got an exhaustive spreadsheet to prove it all, but from just going over the skills and reading some of the builds online, it seems I can "max" magicka in terms of lowered-casting-cost, improved maximums, improved regen, AND skill-based regen (i.e. Dark Exchange), in ways that stamina can't compete with.0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭Sounds more like a (bad) workaround than a fix to the real problem.
Also, everyone wearing impenetrable armor would make it pointless.Edited by Gisgo on June 19, 2014 4:29PM1 -
Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭ok, re-read the topic.
Is this minor change to improve the damage aspect of stamina builds not at least worth considering?
As for the PVP comment above this, This issue is more prevelant in PvE, and anyways i see no problem in Impenetrable armor being a useful way to protection against stamina builds.I play every class in every situation. I love them all.0 -
Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭People DONT understand to truly fatal flaw in trying to make Stamina builds as strong as Magicka builds.
Magicka relies on its resource FOR those big Numbers.
Stamina on the other hand has the benefit of increased Light/Heavy Attack Damage.
You NEVER run out of Light/Heavy Attack. So IF Stamina builds are producing damage as high as Magicka then running out of the resource and STILL producing good numbers or say better numbers than a Magicka build without its resource theres a problem.
Magicka and Stamina have an initial balance.
Magicka produces Big numbers for a limited time till the resource runs out. Once out of the resource it produces terrible numbers.
Stamina produces Less than a Magicka build with its resource. Stamina without its resource is having better numbers than Magicka without its resource.
Thus creating a balance. Stamina DOESNT have to use Stamina abilities to be good it can rely on its Light/Heavy Attack for damage, leaving the ability to use Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break MORE often. You can still use Stamina abilities but they are for the most part more situational than dependent for damage.
You can use all your Stamina FOR more damage but that's not the builds actual strength. Long term consistent damage IS. What they should do and probably already HAVE done is added DPS checks that can only be defeated with strong Stamina builds.
The issue is certain Magicka builds DONT run out of Magicka.
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No it wouldn't, because that still doesn't address one of the fundamental issues with stamina builds ... which is the fact you are using your combat resource (stamina) to fuel dodging, running, blocking etc which is not a problem for Magicka builds.
Add a skill that is toggled on letting you use magicka instead of stamina for dodging/blocking?0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »ok, re-read the topic.
Implying i didnt read it enough times...
Its not a good idea, sorry.
Someone suggested medium armor reducing the cost of stamina abilities, and i think it makes much more sense.
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Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »ok, re-read the topic.
Implying i didnt read it enough times...
Its not a good idea, sorry.
Someone suggested medium armor reducing the cost of stamina abilities, and i think it makes much more sense.
Whats wrong with the cost reduction you get from the weapons themselves. You know the 20% reduction in Stamina abilities?0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭There is nothing wrong, its just not enough considered you use stamina to dodge, break cc, sprint...0
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Shaun98ca2✭✭✭✭✭Yea and Magicka users use Magicka for stuff OTHER than DPS. WEIRD.
Magicka users have to use Magicka for their Crowd Control, Buffs, Self Healing.
Magicka users have to make sure hey DONT run out of Magicka or they are screwed.
Stamina users can still be viable without Stamina due to EVERY point towards Stamina increases the damage of ALL Light/Heavy Attacks including Staffs.0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭
It would make my stamina build much worse because i wouldnt be able to cast the cloak as often as i do now.
I play a stamina build and damage is not a problem, having enough stamina to keep doing that damage is.
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Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »increase the critical hit bonus on melee hits, or anything that uses melee crit from 150% damage, to 200% or 250%
thats all ZOS has to do. And in the process they would effectively validate Medium armor stamina builds.
To clarify since everyone so far has expected this to be the "solves all problems" this idea is simply AN IMPROVEMENT TO THE DAMAGE ASPECTS OF STAMINA ABILITIES. Currently even before using gear, spell casting is better in this aspect already.
Other changes are still needed, and i dont think the developers considered the fact that having Dodge, Block, Etc on the stamina like it was in previous Elder Scrolls games would effect the weapon skills and builds focused around them like it did in this game.
your suggestion is perfect and i hope they do this.
it's a start, what else u got? any ideas on how to make it so we nightblades not die so easily? and maybe some skills we can have to knock people down like the dragonights and sorcerers and templars can? as soon as they knock me down i cant get up and it's immediate 3 second death cause they spam attack me.
Edited by Gilvoth on June 19, 2014 5:36PM0 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
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It would make my stamina build much worse because i wouldnt be able to cast the cloak as often as i do now.
I play a stamina build and damage is not a problem, having enough stamina to keep doing that damage is.
How would a toggle skill to use magicka for dodge/block make you run out of stamina faster?0 -
Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Shaun98ca2 wrote: »People DONT understand to truly fatal flaw in trying to make Stamina builds as strong as Magicka builds.
Magicka relies on its resource FOR those big Numbers.
Stamina on the other hand has the benefit of increased Light/Heavy Attack Damage.
You NEVER run out of Light/Heavy Attack. So IF Stamina builds are producing damage as high as Magicka then running out of the resource and STILL producing good numbers or say better numbers than a Magicka build without its resource theres a problem.
Magicka and Stamina have an initial balance.
Magicka produces Big numbers for a limited time till the resource runs out. Once out of the resource it produces terrible numbers.
Stamina produces Less than a Magicka build with its resource. Stamina without its resource is having better numbers than Magicka without its resource.
Thus creating a balance. Stamina DOESNT have to use Stamina abilities to be good it can rely on its Light/Heavy Attack for damage, leaving the ability to use Block, Dodge, Stun, CC Break MORE often. You can still use Stamina abilities but they are for the most part more situational than dependent for damage.
You can use all your Stamina FOR more damage but that's not the builds actual strength. Long term consistent damage IS. What they should do and probably already HAVE done is added DPS checks that can only be defeated with strong Stamina builds.
The issue is certain Magicka builds DONT run out of Magicka.
you are basing your entire pretense on something that just isnt true. Light and heavy attacks from staffs are just as good as anything from the physical trees. meaning that without skill resources they are no differant from each other.
However mages can freely use Restoration Staffs to Rapidly Regenerate MP. There is no such option for Stamina, and even then the skills produce less overall by a significant margin.
There is no Balance in this... its flat out skewed in favor of Magical use vs weapons, Since in addition to better damage and sustainability, you also have better defensive ability by using stam just to block and dodge.
i would like to mention, as others have mentioned..;..
Stamina build DO HAVE A COST REDUCTION EFFECT, its part of EVERY STAMINA BASED WEAPONS PASSIVE TREES AND HITS 20% at rank 2, only 1% less than what Mages get on their armor.Edited by Hypertionb14_ESO on June 19, 2014 5:37PMI play every class in every situation. I love them all.2 -
trueche✭✭They just need to take block, sprint and dodge off of being percentage based. At this point stam builds spend way more to do these things than the magika builds. Let it be a set number, one that wouldn't change the effectiveness of magika builds too much, but would allow stam builds to be able to do it without to much trouble, or make a medium armor passive with the 5 set that replenishes stam after successfully blocking/dodging an attack.0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭
It would make my stamina build much worse because i wouldnt be able to cast the cloak as often as i do now.
I play a stamina build and damage is not a problem, having enough stamina to keep doing that damage is.
How would a toggle skill to use magicka for dodge/block make you run out of stamina faster?
Not sure i understood you right... you dont cast the cloak by using stamina.
I would run out of magicka instead of running out of stamina, not a real help.
3% stamina cost reduction on each piece of medium armor would be perfect for me.
Edited by Gisgo on June 19, 2014 5:39PM2 -
OP's suggestion is valid, The idea with stamina builds is they increase the damage of your light and heavy attacks. You're supposed to use your stamina to stay in the fight longer, dodging, rolling, cc breaking, etc. And magicka dps is supposed to drop off when out of magicka, its not currently because...resto staff+cost reductions+warlock set and other ***.
Combine that with animation canceling being a thing still, (each attack costing you 200 stamina and most players able to fire off 2+ a bash if in melee every second) and your losing stamina way to fast while blocking. its not like you can only block the heavy attacks/abilities either, because they're fired of in fractions of a second between light attacks and bash's.
The only way to deal with this is one hand and shield + heavy armour 5 peice passive + "protection" jewelry.
what does this leave out? what cant fit into this "outlast" formula? medium armour and 2h+dw. buffing melee crit would buff both of these underpowered skill lines, nightblades "rogue playstyle" and temps(bitting jabs is meleecrit)
It would also buff dk's tho, think lava whip is melee crit.
but if we made the 200% crit strikes a medium armour passive...
problem solved.
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
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It would make my stamina build much worse because i wouldnt be able to cast the cloak as often as i do now.
I play a stamina build and damage is not a problem, having enough stamina to keep doing that damage is.
How would a toggle skill to use magicka for dodge/block make you run out of stamina faster?
Not sure i understood you right... you dont cast the cloak by using stamina.
I would run out of magicka instead of running out of stamina, not a real help.
Well you can't have everything - if you use mainly stamina you could use magicka for dodge/block with that toggle skill. If you use mainly magicka you use stamina for dodge/block. One resource for attacks, one for dodge and block = balance.0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭Well you can't have everything - if you use mainly stamina you could use magicka for dodge/block with that toggle skill. If you use mainly magicka you use stamina for dodge/block. One resource for attacks, one for dodge and block = balance.
And how is that helping stamina builds?
It works both ways, it would help any build, not changing the current situation one bit.
To buff stamina you need to buff stamina, not to use magicka instead!
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They just need to take block, sprint and dodge off of being percentage based. At this point stam builds spend way more to do these things than the magika builds. Let it be a set number, one that wouldn't change the effectiveness of magika builds too much, but would allow stam builds to be able to do it without to much trouble, or make a medium armor passive with the 5 set that replenishes stam after successfully blocking/dodging an attack.
Its not percentage based
blocking is about 200,
cc break is about 560
sprinting is 55 stamina per second,
sneak is 11 per second,
cant remember roll dodge, there's an article on tamriel foundry "a tanking primer" or something like that.
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well you can't have everything - if you use mainly stamina you could use magicka for dodge/block with that toggle skill. If you use mainly magicka you use stamina for dodge/block. One resource for attacks, one for dodge and block = balance.
And how is that helping stamina builds?
It works both ways, it would help any build, not changing the current situation one bit.
It's helping stamina builds by shifting dodge/block to magicka, which frees up stamina to be used for attacks.
It wouldn't help magicka build at all, people using magicka for attacks wouldn't want to waste that on dodging/blocking, which is where we're at with stamina build right now, seems to be one of the main complaints ("but I have to use stamina for my attack skills as well as dodging and blocking").Edited by babylon on June 19, 2014 5:50PM0 -
trueche✭✭They just need to take block, sprint and dodge off of being percentage based. At this point stam builds spend way more to do these things than the magika builds. Let it be a set number, one that wouldn't change the effectiveness of magika builds too much, but would allow stam builds to be able to do it without to much trouble, or make a medium armor passive with the 5 set that replenishes stam after successfully blocking/dodging an attack.
Its not percentage based
blocking is about 200,
cc break is about 560
sprinting is 55 stamina per second,
sneak is 11 per second,
cant remember roll dodge, there's an article on tamriel foundry "a tanking primer" or something like that.
really? I swear every where I've read said it's percentage based. I dunno then, seems like even as a stam build when sneaking around in pvp with a group of magika builds I run out of stam the same time they do. I still think medium armor should have something that allows stam replenishment if you are wearing 5 pieces or more.0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭You seem to be convinced stamina builds have plenty of magicka to spare, but they dont, in fact they are usually pretty low on magicka, and your toggle wouldnt help them as much as a straight stamina % reduction.
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Hypertionb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭They just need to take block, sprint and dodge off of being percentage based. At this point stam builds spend way more to do these things than the magika builds. Let it be a set number, one that wouldn't change the effectiveness of magika builds too much, but would allow stam builds to be able to do it without to much trouble, or make a medium armor passive with the 5 set that replenishes stam after successfully blocking/dodging an attack.
Its not percentage based
blocking is about 200,
cc break is about 560
sprinting is 55 stamina per second,
sneak is 11 per second,
cant remember roll dodge, there's an article on tamriel foundry "a tanking primer" or something like that.
cool info, its nice to know how much each is...
i wonder how it would be like if these were on a unique resource with a base effect of 1k.I play every class in every situation. I love them all.0 -
Well you can't have everything - if you use mainly stamina you could use magicka for dodge/block with that toggle skill. If you use mainly magicka you use stamina for dodge/block. One resource for attacks, one for dodge and block = balance.
And how is that helping stamina builds?
It works both ways, it would help any build, not changing the current situation one bit.
It's helping stamina builds by shifting dodge/block to magicka, which frees up stamina to be used for attacks.
It wouldn't help magicka build at all, people using magicka for attacks wouldn't want to waste that on dodging/blocking, which is where we're at with stamina build right now, seems to be one of the main complaints ("but I have to use stamina for my attack skills as well as dodging and blocking").
No, people using magicka for attacks would continue to have infinite resources through resto staff and warlock set/magicka furnace (another slap in the face to melee, they get mana when we hit them!) and would be able to do everything stamina can, but forever. try again.
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babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You seem to be convinced stamina builds have plenty of magicka to spare, but they dont, in fact they are usually pretty low on magicka, and your toggle wouldnt help them as much as a straight stamina % reduction.
I would suggest my toggle along with other changes to stamina skills.
Just the toggle would be useful once stamina skills are fixed as well. A player could then go for a proper stamina build and not have to worry about not being able to dodge/block. Not sure why you're against this.Edited by babylon on June 19, 2014 5:59PM0