Finding a group can be a pain in the neck. Finding a group that isn't terrible can be an enormous, throbbing hemorrhoid.

Sometimes, even at endgame, you might just want to play a bit without risking the hemorrhoid.

Nothing wrong with solo content. Went through gw2 world completion more or less solo (with the exception of world vs world). The only stuff in that game not ideal for solo are champions & dungeons (some will debate this).
Eso is no different really. It's not often you need help while leveling. If you cannot find people to help in area's we are having trouble with we can level further & go back later to complete.
Grouping is fine too, if & when needed or specifically required. Shame about the grouping tool though.
I also agree we should be able to do the majority of content on a solo basis regardless of level. Leave the group stuff to dolems, bosses & dungeons maybe?

^^^ "Dungeons are good for grouping, but everything else ... solo is best." Well put.

Toughest part in MMO game design today, not like in the past (pre-2011 or so) is to provide the solo player enough content to keep him entertained, but require grouping for say 30% of the game to do bring the community together.

This is a ~very~ tricky subject; if the game doesn't require grouping then you hear (as you do here so often in this forum) that 'ESO is a solo MMO"; if requires grouping then the other side's complaint is - 'why should I be forced to group?'. Both sides wanting the best gear which is of course absurd.

A good mix perhaps is the answer, and whoever doesn't like it - tough, play something else if not to your liking. Many games that went too far in the soloist direction became too 'casual' (aka easy) and that has created new problems and exodus from it (aka LOTRO). Not an easy subject at all.

I hoped ESO was designed very tough to get to even get to max PvE level (50 now) because that would give the developers ~time~ to develop more end-game content. Addedly ESO is also a PvP game, and that crowd always rears its ugly head about having to go even have to go 'through' PvE to get to 'PvP' (but being powerful enough to really play it). Same dilemma faced in DAoC. Same back and forth and battle between the PvEers and PvPers.

/glad not a MMO game designer

Who says they want everything to be soloable? Not me. I just want to be able to solo the solo boss in the SOLO quests that i'm required to do and to solo trash mobs out in PvE. I'm stating a fact as I see it. I'm dying far to much and its not fun. First rule of games is to enjoy them. I'm not enjoying dying constantly.

Sapphy24 wrote: »

Who says they want everything to be soloable? Not me. I just want to be able to solo the solo boss in the SOLO quests that i'm required to do and to solo trash mobs out in PvE. I'm stating a fact as I see it. I'm dying far to much and its not fun. First rule of games is to enjoy them. I'm not enjoying dying constantly.

First rule is to enjoy a game. And having an important encounter that everyone easy can beat is NOT enjoyable. Zenimax never hidden this fact. ESO was and is very much depended on the player person skills.

If an encounter is to hard for you, you even get tips how to beat it. Get some levels, get some more experience, try a different tactics.

To cry BROKEN just because you can not beat an solo encounter right away, does not mean its broken. It seams its pretty challenging. And when you beat it....you feel really good.

This is one part where way to many people think everyone should be able to overcome everything. In WoW maybe, yes. Because that is the type that game is.

ESO offers different encounters. And as you have seen, Tamriel is not very friendly to you at some places. Maybe its not fun to die.....but then dont die.

I have died more then I can count in this game, and its been many years since I had this much fun in an MMO.

Sapphy24 wrote: »

I don't do the solo quest boss's, I hate being one shot.
I like to just amble along at my own pace, kill this, look at that and I should be able to. I don't give a flying kangaroo that bosses in a solo quest are supposed to be hard. You do them, I don't want to.
But I do care when 3 lvl 43 spiders kills me with hits of over 500 each, and they were just trash mobs, not bosses.
Defend my rights to do what I want to do, play at my own pace and lvl and enjoy the game, all of the game.
I will state again.
I really like the game but I do hate constant dying, and I have every right to hate constant dying.

If you hate 3 lvl 43 spiders killing you, you're going to hate some of the veteran level trash mobs - providing you're not at vet level now.

I know i'm going to hate it.. so what's my choices? oh, and btw I am only 47 right now and trying to figure out how to get to Coldharbour without doing those pesky quests, which I won't do at any cost, id sooner go back and play wow. Oh, there's a thought.. I at least had fun there and didn't die every 5 minutes.

Lol! You just proved the difference in the ESO player and WoW player!

Great! Have fun in wow, where you can kill elite bosses, that drops epic gear while watching TV.

In ESO you actually have to earn it.....so unfair eh?

xanikk999 wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

Lol! You just proved the difference in the ESO player and WoW player!

Great! Have fun in wow, where you can kill elite bosses, that drops epic gear while watching TV.

In ESO you actually have to earn it.....so unfair eh?

When I played WoW there was a big difference between LFR (basically no effort raiding) and heroic raiding.

I do feel like I earned my rewards when raiding the hardest content in WoW.

The big difference in ESO however is that end game content only seems to cater to one group of people. WoW however has content that caters to everyone without diminishing the hardest content for those who want it.

The devs here could learn from that. It is possible to keep multiple demographics happy.

Ignore them. They like trolling every thread about this.

WARNING, LONG POST REGARDING RAIDING IN ESO VS WOW


Oh I agree that both on normal and HC, SoO, and especially a few encounters like General Nazgrim, Thok and of course Garrosh (before nerf), WAS hard to beat. Took a raid team months to nail garrosh.

Yes, this did WoW very well. But what they also do, is letting everyone do the same raids in LFR mode...which a bunch of drunken monkeys can do.

And again, there is a BIG difference in TYPE of MMO between WoW and ESO.
Lets take the what I call REAL raiding, In wow normal 10 man or 25 man, you do need cooperation and teamwork, along with knowing your rotation on your char, and knowing the tactics of the raid encounters.


WOW

WoW have done these raids for years. Ive been there, I used more dkp then I pay rent, hehe. BUT this is one way to raid "Hardcore".

WoW has a tactic for each boss. The raidteams execution of this tactics is what matters, along with itemlvl.

What WoW does after a short while, is not only having LFR-Flex able to SEE the encounters, beat them easily, but NERF the hell out of the normal and HC version so more of the WoW players can "beat it" on normal level, get that loot and achievement.

I count only those who have "ahead of the curve" achievement as a real achievement.

For WoW, this is the end goal for the game. To beat the current hardest boss in the game. Which changes with new content. Little story maybe, but I doubt many even care about the story and looked more at the panda.....

WoW raid today REQUIRES addons to not just be effective, but I doubt you even can attend a HC SoO pre nerf without a handfull of addons that gives you warnings, where to move, all the info about the encounter, UI for healers so you click easy. Even blinking buttons when to push what attack that is on cooldown.

EVERY Boss ability is on countdown, and Bigwigs or what you using are SCREAMING to you, X incoming in 10 seconds....etc etc. ESO have nothing of the sort.

I am not saying its easy to beat Garrosh on HC before nerf, but this is WoW raiding.

To raid hardcore, you need, Itemlvl, Achievements from X, be the correct class/spec. Know your rotation (there is a best rotation), can follow tactics, which is shown on every youtube near you......

Sure....this is WoW hardcore raiding and something that...hmm, 5-10% of the WoW population gets to experience?

And sure, I felt DAMN good when we in december nailed Garrosh 10 man normal. But not ONE bloody legendary drop! ;-p

Then nerf nerf nerf.....(february?)
At this point, 90% of the wow population have experience the encounter, got the loot and achievement. But FAR from the same skill and teamwork as the hardcore raiders did.


ESO

ESO raiding, we know very little about, because that is a pretty new gem. First of all, ESO has no end game. It has an ongoing journey, that of course changes over time, but I have not seen any info that beating the main quest line, earning the PvP campaign or completing the trials or 12 man raids, is any time up Tamriel world end game.

The big difference here is not the raid itself, but the REASON for it. ESO is its LORE. Everything is connected and have a purpose or reason.

We already know about future incoming features, which more then likely will bring even more encounters.

Also, you of course are aware about the fundamental differences in wow classes and ESO Builds...dont even need to call them classes.

There are so many builds that we have not seen em all yet. Sure, some sort of tank, healing is needed. DAMAGE is needed. DPS means less, you can dps a mob healer as much as you want....he doesnt die anyway. You CAN use tactics to take out the targets. Teamwork killed encounters, and is not the same for group 1 as for group 2. For 2 reasons

1. Builds are different, hence can handle different encounters in different ways. Not saying you need a specific one, but one build may be very bad for a tactics, while another is perfect for it.

2. The player skill in playing their character.

3. Boss tactics are very different from WoW. There is no AE warning, DOT number etc. You may need hard resists against magic on one boss + lots of movement. What to do with adds isnt always the same thing for the same team.

ALL raidmembers must be ready to adapt to a fast situation and MOVE, or attack/HEAL at the same time, while teamwork kicks in so adds gets rooted for 10 seconds, one of the tanks saves the dying healer by a charge and keep 2 adds busy, when the other HALF tank/Half damage, keeps the boss busy.

One main thing I have notice in boss fights, or most fights in ESO, is your "raidawareness", Mobs dont act the same all the time like in WoW.
They have an AI that we havnt really figured out how it works, BUT still we work together at an encounter. Wipe, discuss, try again, maybe in a new way....and beat it when we get it right...even luck has something to do with it.

What is VERY clear is that harder encounters, may it be instances, Cyrodiil wars, trials, or 12 man raid, is that teamwork, adapt and having a good mix of builds that suits THOSE players, is WAY more important then level gear and which skill currently does most "dps". IT really is damage we talk about in ESO, not DPS.

I am not saying one or the other is harder or easier. Just that raiding in ESO is vastly different to raiding in WoW.


Example

To give you an example, take 4 Vet 1 players and go to a midlevel instance. Rush it...attack....and there is quite a big risk you wipe.

Take a a few wow high itemlvl player, put them in most raids. Rush it....kill. Unless its nazgrim, and the muppets still have not learned what defensive stance means....then its a kill.

Yes, you DO need a raidteam with teamwork, and the dedication to do these hard raids in ESO. I see no problem in that. It gives me ANOTHER goal in the game to reach for. Its availible to all.....but you need to earn it ;-)

I have not experienced the 12 man raid myself, but I have read post from guilds who have done it. And they say the same thing. Sure, you need to maximize your damage, but some parts...unless you move, adapt, work VERY fast together, or kill off that healer.....or rangers fast enough, you fail.

Or if the tank doesnt tank according to the build and encounter (I am a tank myself), that can screw up the whole ESO raid.

You are right in one thing. ESO needs to develop their raid system. YES. But high end raiding, with the ultimate boss as a target, was never on the ESO list of features even. There are going to be lots of different encounters and a war type of pvp zone with a winner per campagn. BUT just like it is in Tamriel, the emporer gets thrown off and replaced when another alliance takes their place....

I think we need to understand the Tamriel world. There is no ending, but a changing future depending on beaten encounters, events, outcomes of the war maybe?


Raid roles

And I dont need to tell you how different combat, healing, roles are in ESO vs WoW.

ESO have many more roles then: Tank, Healer, Dps.
I am not even sure I dare to give an educated guess about what "types" of roles ESO raider will have. I can say, It is NOT as simple, as a Tank with damage, Healer with CC and damage dealer who payed 50k to be a vampire and gets oneshotted every fire AE :-p

Roles in ESO spans from Old school core Heavy Tank, like I am. Loads of heavy, No damage but tons of damage mitigation skills, self heal, damage shield, debuffs on boss, taunts, charges, etc, to tanks using magika as defense. All tanks are not the same, or play the same. Can even go so far, that My build doesnt suit 1 boss, when another build does.

Again, I am not putting any value on either, just that they differ vastly, and the goal for the event is different, because as I understood it, ESO events are never the end of that content. They even say that even "old" content will be updated, just like they are doing with dungeons low lvl up to craglorn. And ALL updates and adds, will be part of Tamriel.

Adramelach wrote: »

What everyone I've seen is arguing for, that argues for solo content, is the *option* to experience the content in a solo fashion, and the *option* to group, as they like. In fact, that's what reconciles both groups, for the most part.

You could argue "gee, on one hand we have people complaining about the solo Main Story quests, and how they should be groupable, and on the other hand you have people crying out for more solo content! It's scattered, makes no sense!" But, really, it all makes sense if you realize that what people are after are CHOICES. If playing solo is my way of "Playing as I like" then LET ME. If grouping up is my choice for "Playing as I like" the LET ME. And stop having the content dictate how it is that I must play.

Well said!

it is not that we want to be everything solo, it is that there are a LOT of Tamriel pending, and if its gonna be all about VR, then we can just forget the whole TESO thing..,.

There's no to point being antisocial when there no one around.