Classism in trials and guilds

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · May 2014

I have never played a mmo where I played the unwanted class. I never understood what it felt like to play as the class the developers just didn't care enough about. Way back in my runescape days I played as a melee character, in wow I played as a warrior and never once did I run into problems finding a group because I was wanted. I always used to see threads on those games forums like "jagex please nerf melee" "blizzard please fix shamans we are garbage". I always thought they were just whiny babys, but now on eso I understand their plight.

When I log on eso every day I am met with discrimination based on what class I choose to play, nightblade. Every day I see in chat "looking for dk/sorc dps for aa" "looking for dk/sorc dps to fill our guild roster for trials". Even when they dont ask for sorc or dk, when they ask me what class im playing and I tell them nightblade they just stop responding to me. I imagine its probably the same for templar dps or tanks. No one wants us for serious groups all because of what? Is it the players fault for wanting to play the class that most appealed to them? Is it the competitive pve crowds fault for not wanting sub par classes in their serious groups? NO, the classes are just straight unbalanced and it doesn't take 2 months of playing to realize this!

I feel no reason to log on now other then to open my hireling mail and research traits. I can pvp sure, but I want to enjoy craglorn just like any other player. I want to see the end game and be able to do it on my favorite class! I see the updates zos has planned for us and I doubt it will be enough to change the players minds about letting us into their guilds/groups. Its not just our useless abilities that need fixing when even our best abilities dont even compare to what dks/sorcerers can do.

Catalyst: This passive ability’s bonus has been increased to 15% for Rank I and 30% for Rank II.
Path of Darkness: This ability’s damage has been slightly increased.
Veil of Blades: This ability is now capable of critical strikes.

Templar
Puncturing Strikes: Reduced the global cooldown triggered after this ability is used, and slightly increased the ability resource cost. This change impacts Puncturing Strikes and all its morphs.

What will these updates change? Nothing! Does this satisfy you fellow templars and nightblades? Does it really? How long do we have to wait before we are given justice and our classes are brought up to an even playing field? We want change NOW before craglorn becomes irrelevant and the next trial gets released. I dont want to quit eso because I love this game and I am a huge fan of the elderscrolls, but I also dont want to reroll dk or sorc so im not left with many options.

I am sorry about this big rant, but after logging on today and seeing yet again more discrimination towards templars and nightblades it pushed me over my limit. I also want to say I dont want sorc or dks nerfed and in our place, I just want templars and nightblades to be competitive dps. I want this classism removed from this game!

Lkory · June 2014

They wont see it coming, but their attitude will bring the nerf coming to them.
Then they will cry and wonder why it is happening to them.

Its a classic, always the same story. Then the game die because some e-peen balloon got blown out.

silent88b14_ESO · June 2014

Is it for the devs to correct the game design to offset a player tendency to value the 'bottom line' more than the people playing, or am I being too liberal?

Comaetilico · June 2014

the only classism I've seen until now... is against STAMINA build... rhater than classes... I've seen NB CASTER doing as much damage as sorc (yes DK are above... ) haven't seen a temp dps... but as both healer and tank they are doing their job (and with their healing ultimate made able to crit they will probably do even better once 1.2 hit live...)... other that every stamina build I've seen regardless of class is underperfoming... and by quite a bit... the problem in classism is due to the fact that 90% of the NB I see around are stamina or weapon based... that is the problem... not the class in itself but the setup... and there is a lot of people that don't realize this so start ecluding a class due to most of its player using a non performing build... ^^' but if you take a stamina based DK he will do less damage that any other magika based build of any class ^^

Gisgo · June 2014

Welcome to endgame PVE, its like that in every MMO.

And this is why PVP is refreshing: you dont group me? Who cares.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · June 2014

They dont even know we aren't hitting good dps since they cant see our dps. I am a nightblade and I have looked up how to max out my dps and how to gear properly, but no one gives me a chance. Im seeing again in chat today "LF high dps dk/sorc for trials" and its really starting to *** me off. Ignorant filth players assume that they can get high dps pug sorc/dks, but not nightblades or templars?Your PUGGING and you think your going to get the best of the best just because of the players class?! Screw these types of players they don't deserve to have my nightblade carry them anyways!

Ninnghizhidda · June 2014

ESO's greatest failure and possible downfall (I still hope not) has been the pathetic design and "favouritism" for the "mage".

If I prefer to play a real "warrior" or "knight", meaning using armour (usually the heavier varieties), physical toughness, and of course my WEAPONS (and shield), why should I have to care at all about "magicka" and "mage stuff"?

This is perfectly possible in many games, except for the real fail ones. One would have thought that especially ESO, with the the awesome history of the Elder Scrolls series behind it, would not only make this possible, but even desired, and certainly on par with the "mages".

Sadly, as it is quite plain to see except for all the biased "I want to have it easy" "mages" out there, the situation is nothing like it.

I am seriously getting tired of all this crapola. Anywhere and everywhere, either in pre-VR areas and much more in VR-level areas, all you ever see now is... yep, "mages". Even the ones with a sword + shield, even the ones using some Heavy armour instead of the typical pajamas.

I still have a sub running for 3 months until August, but in all honesty, the feeling of disappointment every day is piling up. And it is the same, and even worse, with most of the people I know, and the closer friends we have been playing and leveling together since pre-launch.

I hope something will REALLY be done in the following couple of months. Had been waiting for this title to come live for years with the highest expectations. I had and still have sympathy for all the endless bugs and screw ups, and Zeni still has my support and patience regarding those. But being essentially forced to either be a "mage" or GTFO is getting a tad too much.

Just another very cheap 2 cents ...

Nuitar · June 2014

Class doesn't matter. All that matters is DPS and a competent healer and tank (and tank only really matters for boss 4 of either trial).

Any class can do enough DPS. DKs used to be able to do a *lot* more. Now I constantly parse higher than our DKS at 1k+ as a NB.

Sorcs are at the top, but in reality a well played DPS is worth 3 average DKs or Sorcs. It's how you play, not the class.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · June 2014

Trials certainly can be done with any group as long as the group members are good, but we cant even prove it because we dont get invites. Something is going to have to educate this pug leaders that nightblades and templars are good enough for trials dps. A dps buff/nerf of some kind needs to take place so group leaders start to think "hmm maybe templars and nightblades aren't so bad after all".

Kayvee · June 2014

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Trials certainly can be done with any group as long as the group members are good, but we cant even prove it because we dont get invites. Something is going to have to educate this pug leaders that nightblades and templars are good enough for trials dps. A dps buff/nerf of some kind needs to take place so group leaders start to think "hmm maybe templars and nightblades aren't so bad after all".

You know... you could just recruit for your own PUG right? There's absolutely nothing special about those people spamming in zone chat, well they might be "special" but you know what I mean.

Axer · June 2014

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

Trials certainly can be done with any group as long as the group members are good, but we cant even prove it because we dont get invites. Something is going to have to educate this pug leaders that nightblades and templars are good enough for trials dps. A dps buff/nerf of some kind needs to take place so group leaders start to think "hmm maybe templars and nightblades aren't so bad after all".

The sad fact is, they simply can't.

They put a HARD dps check in archive that a group of 12 templars or nightblades simply could never complete.

Enough good DKs and Sorcs can certainly carry some Templars/NB thru that check. But the fact is, they simply can't contribute properly to it, no matter what.

12 DKs could complete, and get an awesome time.
12 Sorcs as well.

12 Templars? Death.
12 NB: Death. Probably wouldn't even make it to the dps check.

The games massively unbalanced in that regard, and doesn't seem to be changing any time soon.

In fact all I see in the 1.2 notes are massive nerfs to the only real point of taking a templar on archives (Remembrance). An ultimate thats already massively weaker then what NB brings to the table (and theirs gets buffed).

As to the reason I don't take pug NBs on my archives really ever:

I tried.

Last 2:
Stamina builds. Near 0 dps.
Ultimates? Nope. They both never even HAD consuming darkness/veils of blades.

When asked to get it:
She replied: I have every skill point in the game (and somehow all spent) and i'm not wasting points on that.

She seemed nice enough, but was 100% set on playing the game "her way". Which didn't really involve contributing anything useful to a raid with the way it's designed.

Blame the horrible NB pug community, not me.

I am recruiting highly skilled NBs that understand the importance of their ultimate and how to generate it fast (Resto staff) to my guild however, check the recruitment forums if your interested.

Andy22 · June 2014

Axer wrote: »

I am recruiting highly skilled NBs that understand the importance of their ultimate and how to generate it fast (Resto staff)

Isn't the Force Siphon bug fixed in 1.2 and currently disabled? Do your NB DPS actually cast regen/ae heals in there rotations just for ultimate generation and willingly lower there DPS?

Do i simply miss or misunderstand this comment? I just ask because i don't know why resto staff, except for healing crits will generate ultimate faster as NB DPS role? Was the comment meant for NB healer?

Can u explain why?

Axer · June 2014

Andy22 wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

I am recruiting highly skilled NBs that understand the importance of their ultimate and how to generate it fast (Resto staff)

Isn't the Force Siphon bug fixed in 1.2 and currently disabled? Do your NB DPS actually cast regen/ae heals in there rotations just for ultimate generation and willingly lower there DPS?

Do i simply miss or misunderstand this comment? I just ask because i don't know why resto staff, except for healing crits will generate ultimate faster as NB DPS role? Was the comment meant for NB healer?

Can u explain why?

The fastest way to generate ultimate in the trials is healing springs + a high crit rate. Was never aware of any exploit with force siphon. Regen is rather poor.

And if I was to pick one class to sacrifice there dps and be a healer, I'd pick the class with the lowest dps.

Nuitar · June 2014

I'd argue 12 NBs is about the safest trial you could run, with permanent uptime on veil of blades 30% mitigation. The only snafu would be requiring negate on the 2nd boss, but the veils may make that redundant.

Axer · June 2014

Nuitar wrote: »

I'd argue 12 NBs is about the safest trial you could run, with permanent uptime on veil of blades 30% mitigation. The only snafu would be requiring negate on the 2nd boss, but the veils may make that redundant.

Boss 3: You'd fail the dps check. It would be only BARELY possible with 12 perfect geared perfect execution NBs, and youd never get that in 1 group.

Boss 4: The aoes not that big, so less you stacked up on the mage, there would be no permanently veil. You'd die really fast from chain lighting having that many stacked.

Boss 2 hardly requires negate. Beat it a few times before we even realised that would work on the chains. You simply move out of them.

Nuitar · June 2014

Boss3: A top geared NB pulls 1k on this boss. Equivalent or higher than most DKs. NB execute is also the highest DPS execute in the game. TBH, the 3rd boss has actually gotten quite easy with just a moderate DPS group. Just avoid red on the ground

Boss4: 100-30 doesnt require high DPS, just healing. NBs will do 650-700 at range...enough DPS to hit 30% before the ground AOE builds. 30-0 everyone but one drops their ult, healers likely save for barrier. Again, NB execute highest DPS in game.

Boss2 only requires negate if you plan on not moving, which most high DPS groups do.

Sure this is all theoretical, but I've run in 4 NB groups. Much, much cleaner runs. The top EU guilds generally run 4-6. We just don't have many good v12 NBs in NA.

To be fair @ all of your points, it sounds like you just don't run with any geared NBs. Their DPS is on par with DKs and Sorcs and with greater survivability, as their primary DPS is a 100 HPS HoT. Sorcs/DKs parse 1300+ because FTC is calculating in their damage to themselves via spell sym.

NBs get a bad rep because of the favor towards bow/dual wield, and generally poor players.

Trials isn't about class. I prefer to run my NB as opposed to my sorc - similar DPS and a better ult.

Axer · June 2014

Nuitar wrote: »

Boss3: A top geared NB pulls 1k on this boss. Equivalent or higher than most DKs. NB execute is also the highest DPS execute in the game. TBH, the 3rd boss has actually gotten quite easy with just a moderate DPS group. Just avoid red on the ground

Boss4: 100-30 doesnt require high DPS, just healing. NBs will do 650-700 at range...enough DPS to hit 30% before the ground AOE builds. 30-0 everyone but one drops their ult, healers likely save for barrier. Again, NB execute highest DPS in game.

Boss2 only requires negate if you plan on not moving, which most high DPS groups do.

Sure this is all theoretical, but I've run in 4 NB groups. Much, much cleaner runs. The top EU guilds generally run 4-6. We just don't have many good v12 NBs in NA.

To be fair @ all of your points, it sounds like you just don't run with any geared NBs. Their DPS is on par with DKs and Sorcs and with greater survivability, as their primary DPS is a 100 HPS HoT. Sorcs/DKs parse 1300+ because FTC is calculating in their damage to themselves via spell sym.

NBs get a bad rep because of the favor towards bow/dual wield, and generally poor players.

Trials isn't about class. I prefer to run my NB as opposed to my sorc - similar DPS and a better ult.

I just run with NBs that tell the truth it all.

Post a single screenshot of a NB doing 1k on wisp boss please and explain the rotation.

There rep is warranted.

'geared"

lol. Getting gear in this game is insanely easy. I regularly recruit players then give them full legendary sets because whatever we have tons. The only thing at all related to dps that tough to get the Aether set, and it doesn't allow NBs to do the kind of dps your talking about. (Plus its a closed loop, beating the trial is required to get it, and we are talking about dps required to beat the trial in the first place).

Maybe there some secret exploit build that does 1k. sure. It's not a thing that anyone knows how to do legit and it' simply doens't happen. So replying like thats some kind of thing that could happen with average players is just nonesense.

Nuitar · June 2014

Edit: Calling out 'top geared' *NOT* involving any trials sets...because quite frankly, crafted is better.

With evil hunter, sustained 1k on wisp mother is pretty easy. Next time I run I'll show you my recount.

Not sure why you are getting so defensive.

Light armor/resto staff

1) Start fight with caltrops on execute bar, keep caltrops up every 30 seconds (100dps with ult gen)
2) Swap to primary rotation:

Funnel health
Crippling Grasp
Evil Hunter
Inner Light
Siphoning Attacks
U: Veil of Blades

Maintain veil, maintain evil hunter, swap to execute bar at 25. 1k is actually not that high given EH procs.

Only one person in the trial needs to be running Aether - it doesn't stack for all other players. Same thing for the 8% set. I prefer Willows/seducer over the Aether set for DPS.

I'm guessing your NBs are a *special* kind of bad, or you are just too tuned to your tanking abilities to understand DPS rotations

Andy22 · June 2014

Nuitar wrote: »

I'm guessing your NBs are a *special* kind of bad, or you are just too tuned to your tanking abilities to understand DPS rotations

I guess all of our NB are "special kind of bad" than too, i would also like to see a video, so we all can learn a few tricks. We can all learn much more from a video, since we can better understand what is different to our playstyle.

If u have a nvidia card, shadow-play is really easy to setup.

Nuitar · June 2014

I play on a macbook air - I'll run fraps on low res tonight

Axer · June 2014

Nuitar wrote: »

Edit: Calling out 'top geared' *NOT* involving any trials sets...because quite frankly, crafted is better.

With evil hunter, sustained 1k on wisp mother is pretty easy. Next time I run I'll show you my recount.

Not sure why you are getting so defensive.

Light armor/resto staff

1) Start fight with caltrops on execute bar, keep caltrops up every 30 seconds (100dps with ult gen)
2) Swap to primary rotation:
Funnel health

Crippling Grasp

Evil Hunter

Inner Light

Siphoning Attacks

U: Veil of Blades

Maintain veil, maintain evil hunter, swap to execute bar at 25. 1k is actually not that high given EH procs.

Only one person in the trial needs to be running Aether - it doesn't stack for all other players. Same thing for the 8% set. I prefer Willows/seducer over the Aether set for DPS.

I'm guessing your NBs are a *special* kind of bad, or you are just too tuned to your tanking abilities to understand DPS rotations

Thanks for the rotation.

I'm defensive because I've seen like 20 posts of claims of 1k dps on NB, yet ZERO screenshots, video, proof. And every nb I've ever played with thats honest has no idea how to get that kind of dps.

That kind of junk only gets the devs confused and results in a pretty unbalanced game. Post some evidence.

And if you only use recount, thats a great proof you don't do 1k dps. Recount is severely bugged and always lists at least 100+ higher dps then you actually do. Use CLS or older versions of FTC (newest ftc is very bugged too),

If you run both, you can easily see that, cls always reports about 100 less then recount, and is accurate.

Nuitar · June 2014

I use both FTC and recount - FTC does account for EH procs, therefore recount.

I'll solve this with a vid tonight or today if I can pull a group together :P

Audigy · June 2014

Is it the competitive pve crowds fault for not wanting sub par classes in their serious groups?

That's exactly where the problem is.

Elitism in MMO´s, welcome to what World of Warcraft brought into the genre with WOTLK.

I can tell you this, I played a Warlock at Vanilla - back in the days when everyone thought we Locks were free kills. Yet I wasn't and I was needed for my personal skill that wasn't about DPS (locks didn't do much), but keeping others busy, supporting the group or just my personality which is not that bad I suppose.

That people don't want you at ESO, has zero to do with the game itself. Its the Elitist´s that are not very skilled and therefore think that you would be the reason if the group fails. They measure this purely on your DPS or a forum post made by some nerd who tells them that this spec and that class suxx.

There is nothing ZO can really do about that, Trials were a mistake due the design of "time trials" - they are well aware of that and I believe they fix that in some way or another.

But this wont change the fact that Elitists will select who they group with based on DPS and performance, even if that performance is below 1% of their own.

People will always find a reason to bully others in online games, that's why I suggest you look for a guild (not a raid group) and play with those or that you use the random group finder. Chat made groups have a horrible reputation for a reason sadly

Good Luck!

ysimeonoveb17_ESO · June 2014

It's not elitism, it's darwinism. If someone can do a run for 15 minutes and have fun why does he have to feel guilty that he doesn't want to do it for 30 minutes?! But that evil elitism is a rather rare case, looking at the comments, so all bads who represent 90% of the population, can create their own guilds, their own groups and invite their own bad friends, no? Leave people do what they think is better for them. No one has signed anywhere that he is obliged to welfare and altruistic sacrifices for the weak.

silent88b14_ESO · June 2014

Oh. A Social Darwinist. heh.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO · June 2014

I dont care what you want to call it, I just want to be accepted into craglorn groups and not be labeled as a liability. I know nightblades can hit good dps, but it doesn't matter what I or other nightblades think because no one believes us. I haven't played seriously in like a week because I feel no reason to log on due to this behavior. I cant even pvp because the lag is atrocious.

ysimeonoveb17_ESO · June 2014

silent88b14_ESO wrote: »

Oh. A Social Darwinist. heh.

No, just survivalist. The ones you are thinking about will force you with a gun to delete your character because you are hurting them by simply existing. Or will do it without asking. Which obviously is not the case. It's just people striving for the best being hated by the others. Not that they are THE best or hated by THE worst. But there will always be some kind of relativity and it's a personal choice to strive for improvement or not and no one should be bottomhurt if he is judged for the ability to provide X amount of Y. Create your own circle with own priorities and rules, profit. Expressing either envy or condescension is doing you no good.

xxslam48xxb14_ESO wrote: »

I dont care what you want to call it, I just want to be accepted into craglorn groups and not be labeled as a liability. I know nightblades can hit good dps, but it doesn't matter what I or other nightblades think because no one believes us. I haven't played seriously in like a week because I feel no reason to log on due to this behavior. I cant even pvp because the lag is atrocious.

Start a new Nightblade/Templar only pug, fill it faster than the blind elitists, play decent, have huge fun. What's the problem, I really don't understand?

claudosan · June 2014

I've only done the AA trial thus far and I'm sure anyone else that has can agree - AOE dps is in demand for the mobs as well as sustained high single-target dps for the bosses.

If you can hit 700 dps and remain above it for single targets, there should be no problem getting into any group for AA - just let them know you can. However, you should also be able to dish out plenty of AOE dmg for the mobs.

Currently, the sorcs and DKs can do it (they are very suitable for the AA trial), which is why they are in demand. It is logical that you would want to get the best people for a job, especially if you want the job done efficiently and in good time.

Maybe in the future, different trials that are more suitable for Templars and Nightblades will arise. After all, the mobs and gameplay in ESO are quite dynamic.

I don't agree with elitism nor the exclusion of classes by default. However, I can see why this is happening. If talking to them fails, the right choice would be to begin your own group - there's no need to kick the bucket and suck on lemons all day...

Ygaer · June 2014

Without a doubt, Nightblade DPS is at or above Sorc DPS for single target. They have the best DPS ult gen in the game right now, and veil of blades comes with a pretty awesome 30% damage reduction on top of its great DPS. I do think there's some debate between which execute is better between sorc's and nightblades, but overall nightblades are more than competitive with the proper resto staff build.

I main a sorc and I have very good times in both trials, and I can simply never match what our best nightblade is doing DPS wise except for very specific and rare occassions that generally only apply to the first two bosses in AA. I generally range between 800 and 1000.