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Animation Cancelling ('light-attack weaving')
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Lyall84✭✭✭✭Adramelach wrote: »I haven't seen or tried this yet, seems I've been missing out. As a sorcerer with staff, I'm thinking I don't have 'bash' - at least I've never used anything that called itself that.
However, are you saying that if I were to hold the mouse button down for a heavy attack, and while doing so, hit a key for say an instant spell, *both* would resolve immediately? The spell doesn't "wait" until the heavy finishes? I've just been waiting for the heavy to complete before casting, assuming it wouldn't proc until the heavy was done.
Once we're back up I'll test it out, but wow, I had no idea you could do that, actually.
Hold right mouse button, press left mouse button. Bash.
Not a shield bash, but a bash. Same motion to CC break.0 -
OkieDokie✭✭✭It's an exploit.
What is the line between an exploit or not? Any other exploit examples do not fit here. For example, how long someone have to wait between light attacks and skills? 0.3, 0.5, 0.7 seconds? Who gets to say that? You? Me? Do I have to play measuring fractions of time every skill I use?
You will always coordinate yourself with cooldowns in the game and make the most of it. It is instinctive.
If they fix the mechanics so this can't be done, fine. But you can't call an exploit something you just do naturally, there is no distinct line between 'right and wrong' and there are no ways to apply.
Again, if they fix it, fine. Not an exploit though.
Edited by OkieDokie on June 16, 2014 11:12PMPeople keep saying they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dks and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.1 -
tordr86b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭weapon attacks have short animations, which means once it ends you can cast an ability again. this is not a exploit.Edited by tordr86b16_ESO on June 16, 2014 11:14PM0 -
cjmarsh725b14_ESO✭✭✭✭tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »weapon attacks have short animations, which means once it ends you can cast an ability. this is not an exploit.
It is not casting an ability after the weapon attack animation ends. The point is that the ability animation overrides the weapon attack animation, so using an attack followed immediately by an ability effectively gives you an instant light attack and an ability. This means there effectively is no weapon attack animation time, using a light attack and starting an ability takes the same amount of time as double-clicking.0 -
Gisgo✭✭✭✭✭Its shady and its pretty much the only thing that makes stamina builds at least viable.
Good job Zos, we dont even know if we are exploiting or not.0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭It's an exploit.
What is the line between an exploit or not? Any other exploit examples do not fit here. For example, how long someone have to wait between light attacks and skills? 0.3, 0.5, 0.7 seconds? Who gets to say that? You? Me? Do I have to play measuring fractions of time every skill I use?
You will always coordinate yourself with cooldowns in the game and make the most of it. It is instinctive.
If they fix the mechanics so this can't be done, fine. But you can't call an exploit something you just do naturally, there is no distinct line between 'right and wrong' and there are no ways to apply.
Again, if they fix it, fine. Not an exploit though.
They mean exploit because instead of letting the animation run its course, it is being ended early allowing another ability to be used. While I do agree that if the game mechanics let you do it naturally, then it is not a cheat, but it is still an exploit. If Zenimax fixes it, then you know it was unintended, but until then nothing wrong with exploiting a natural game mechanic.
Exploit - verb - making use of something for ones own advantage.Edited by Lyall84 on June 16, 2014 11:39PM0 -
SwampRaider✭✭✭✭✭A Sorc killed me in 4 seconds today. I have 3100 hp and 2200 spel lresistance. My death recap showed this:
light attack
light attack
light attack
light attackEdited by SwampRaider on June 16, 2014 11:36PMCharacter: Eros, Eros I I, The Paw of Woe
Class: Templar Healer/MagWarden/ Stam Sorc
Alliance: DC
Campaign: Vivec (pc/na)
Guardians of Daggerfall0 -
Diaboli✭✭✭I have used this technique in literally every MMO I have ever played. It's not an exploit, it's just a matter of understanding when your attacks register on the server side. There is no such thing as perfect real time in an MMO, that's why you can do this, and why every MMO out there doesn't consider it an exploit.If I throw a dog a bone, I don't care to know how it tastes... - Brick Top3 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭tordr86b16_ESO wrote: »weapon attacks have short animations, which means once it ends you can cast an ability again. this is not a exploit.
Read above, if they let the animation finish I would agree with you, but the whole debate is because they cancel the animation sequence and still get the attack off.0 -
OkieDokie✭✭✭
Exploit - verb - making use of something for ones own advantage.
Yeah, I get that. English is not my first language so feel free to correct me, but I'm pretty sure exploitation is linked to intention.
And you'll just do it naturally. Otherwise, if you have to keep track of time every single attack you do this game would be extremely boring, unplayable really.
Again, I don't question the fact that they might fix it.Edited by OkieDokie on June 17, 2014 12:06AMPeople keep saying they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dks and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.2 -
reggielee✭✭✭✭its an exploit as they are using game mechanics to cause unintended results, via cancellation of animations in order to 'stack' hit effects. do I blame them for using them? heck noMama always said the fastest way to a man's heart is through his chest.0 -
robertlive2014✭✭✭This already has an internal cooldown -- you can't weave a second light attack until the first one would have finished normally.
Removing the ability to cancel altogether would make combat feel even more unresponsive and clunky than it already is. The current situation isn't ideal, but the alternative would be worse.
This is what people need to understand. As a novice player, because the animation is 1.5 seconds long, and the damage is much lower than skill attacks, you are likely to find yourself not using your light attacks at all unless you've dumped all your other resources.
Coaching players to weave light attacks into their attack rotation is nothing more than helping them to get the most out of their character. Once you open the discussion for how to incorporate light attacks into an attack rotation, the subject of the ESO combat priority system must be included.
Since it turns out that the priority system is deliberately designed to allow the light attack animation to be cancelled, it would just be stupid to ignore the mechanic and instead advocate that players somehow use light attacks and not begin the next skill as soon as possible, or expect that players should continue to play without using light attacks in their rotations at all.1 -
Venithar✭✭✭robertlive2014 wrote: »This already has an internal cooldown -- you can't weave a second light attack until the first one would have finished normally.
Removing the ability to cancel altogether would make combat feel even more unresponsive and clunky than it already is. The current situation isn't ideal, but the alternative would be worse.
This is what people need to understand. As a novice player, because the animation is 1.5 seconds long, and the damage is much lower than skill attacks, you are likely to find yourself not using your light attacks at all unless you've dumped all your other resources.
Coaching players to weave light attacks into their attack rotation is nothing more than helping them to get the most out of their character. Once you open the discussion for how to incorporate light attacks into an attack rotation, the subject of the ESO combat priority system must be included.
Since it turns out that the priority system is deliberately designed to allow the light attack animation to be cancelled, it would just be stupid to ignore the mechanic and instead advocate that players somehow use light attacks and not begin the next skill as soon as possible, or expect that players should continue to play without using light attacks in their rotations at all.
So you are saying it is perfectly fine that I can cast a crystal shard consistently in half the time the skill says it takes to cast it?0 -
Lyall84✭✭✭✭Just my way of looking at it. They put the animation cancel in there so you can block heavy or special hits mid cast, so you dont have people complaining about how they got creamed by something because they started casting a half second before the heavy/special attack started. This whole thing is a by product of that intent.2
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Zheg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Going to update the original post, but official feedback is that this is not an exploit, the devs are aware of it, and are working on some kind of change.0 -
Yajnho✭✭✭I don't mind that there is a priority or that animations get cancelled, but it should probably cancel the damage, and the associated cost of the ability as well.
So you can stop casting crystal shard to block, and thereby avoid axe to the face. But there should be no shard because you stopped casting it. The only cost should be for the ability that DID go off, the block. You should not get a bonus shard just for avoiding an axe to the face, or particularly for blocking just to cancel an animation. You shouldn't get a bonus light attack either- you stopped swinging to cringe behind a shield.
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badmojo✭✭✭✭✭
✭I can't believe some people think this is intended. You don't complete the attack animation but get all the damage from it, how is that not obviously a broken mechanic?
By all means exploit the heck out of it, it's the only way they'll fix it. But, don't act like it's not broken.[DC/NA]1 -
Bolo_Bob✭✭✭Mass Effect 3 had this same issue with gun reload speeds being animation canceled, the dev's/GM's quickly branded it "a clever use of game mechanics."
granted it wasnt an MMO, but a horde mode co-op rpg shooter, but the forums there were full of post screaming exploit.
never got changed, at least in that game.
anyway, just sayin i wouldnt be surprised if they drop the "clever use of game mechanics" line in this game too.0 -
Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭How exactly do I perform this maneuver? It is being done to me, so I need to do it back in order to be equal.
Within; Without.0 -
The simplest solution : INTRODUCE GLOBAL COOLDOWN
Im not sure why they avoid it like a plague. Its a perfect solution to many many problems including balance1 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭
Agreed. I don't do it. It's clearly an exploit and everyone who does it is exploiting/cheating.0 -
Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭Weaving light attack in between an already complex rotation is harder to do than just doing the rotation alone. Why will I need to learn to play? If they nerf it my rotation becomes easier. It's only really of any use on long drawn out fights e.g. DPS races. I never bother in normal game play.0
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Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭cisadanepajsuxrwb17_ESO wrote: »The simplest solution : INTRODUCE GLOBAL COOLDOWN
Im not sure why they avoid it like a plague. Its a perfect solution to many many problems including balance
They avoid Auction House and 1-9 skill bar to "be unique" so I guess this just makes ESO unique?
Within; Without.0 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭Weaving light attack in between an already complex rotation is harder to do than just doing the rotation alone. Why will I need to learn to play? If they nerf it my rotation becomes easier. It's only really of any use on long drawn out fights e.g. DPS races. I never bother in normal game play.
You keep calling it that. It's not a skill, it's an exploit and I don't care if you have to be a cross between Einstein and Bruce Lee to pull it off. It's still an exploit.
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Hilgara✭✭✭✭✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »You keep calling it that. It's not a skill, it's an exploit and I don't care if you have to be a cross between Einstein and Bruce Lee to pull it off. It's still an exploit.
skill
/skɪl/
noun
noun: skill
1.
the ability to do something well; expertise.
"difficult work, taking great skill"
synonyms: expertise, skilfulness, expertness, adeptness, adroitness, deftness, dexterity, ability, prowess, mastery, competence, competency, capability, efficiency, aptitude, artistry, art, finesse, flair, virtuosity, experience, professionalism, talent, cleverness, smartness, ingenuity, versatility, knack, readiness, handiness; More
informalknow-how
"once again, he demonstrated his skill as a politician"
antonyms: incompetence
•
a particular ability.
plural noun: skills
"the skills of cookery"
synonyms: accomplishment, strength, gift, forte More
"bringing up a family gives you many skills"
verb
verb: skill; 3rd person present: skills; past tense: skilled; past participle: skilled; gerund or present participle: skilling
1.
train (a worker) to do a particular task.
"there is a lack of basic skilling"
Hope that helps0 -
jeevin✭✭✭✭✭The damage should be calculated at the end of animation to prevent this exploit. If you cancel an animation zero damage should be calculated it's that simple. Combat should feel more fluid from this too.Edited by jeevin on June 17, 2014 9:25AM3 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »You keep calling it that. It's not a skill, it's an exploit and I don't care if you have to be a cross between Einstein and Bruce Lee to pull it off. It's still an exploit.
skill
/skɪl/
noun
noun: skill
1.
the ability to do something well; expertise.
"difficult work, taking great skill"
synonyms: expertise, skilfulness, expertness, adeptness, adroitness, deftness, dexterity, ability, prowess, mastery, competence, competency, capability, efficiency, aptitude, artistry, art, finesse, flair, virtuosity, experience, professionalism, talent, cleverness, smartness, ingenuity, versatility, knack, readiness, handiness; More
informalknow-how
"once again, he demonstrated his skill as a politician"
antonyms: incompetence
•
a particular ability.
plural noun: skills
"the skills of cookery"
synonyms: accomplishment, strength, gift, forte More
"bringing up a family gives you many skills"
verb
verb: skill; 3rd person present: skills; past tense: skilled; past participle: skilled; gerund or present participle: skilling
1.
train (a worker) to do a particular task.
"there is a lack of basic skilling"
Hope that helps
It certainly helps me discount the opinion of anyone who tells a poster who finds VR to boring and grindy because of difficulty some dressed up variant of 'L2P'. I now translate that to L2E.
It also helps me identify people who think something cannot be both a skill and an exploit, as if an exploit requiring skill in any way makes it not exploiting.
So yes. It was most helpful.Edited by steveb16_ESO46 on June 17, 2014 9:53AM0 -
cjmarsh725b14_ESO✭✭✭✭steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »Weaving light attack in between an already complex rotation is harder to do than just doing the rotation alone. Why will I need to learn to play? If they nerf it my rotation becomes easier. It's only really of any use on long drawn out fights e.g. DPS races. I never bother in normal game play.
You keep calling it that. It's not a skill, it's an exploit and I don't care if you have to be a cross between Einstein and Bruce Lee to pull it off. It's still an exploit.
If the developer's put in animations with different priorities that override others don't you think something like this is the inevitable result? Sure, it's a cheap trick, but I'm not sure it can be called an exploit. It is not hard to program an animation to run all the way through. I think it should probably be fixed or at least addressed in some way though, right along with a host of other balancing issues.0