What is the point of VR?

Yasha

What is the point of VR apart from being more powerful in pvp?

You just do the quests in one of the other zones right? Why not just role an alt to do that? Is there something more that you experience during VR that you can't see on an alt in the other alliances?

Ashigaru

Move grinding quests is about it.

Yasha

Ashigaru wrote: »

Move grinding quests is about it.

Are there new quests that only a VR can do, or do you do the same quests that people just starting out do?

cromica81_ESO

It is a cost effective way to keep some people paying a sub

elwhy

I've been feeling this lately, too. I'm just glad I didn't get past level 15 on any of my alts...but now if I wanna play my sorc alt instead of my nb main I'm doing the same quests, which is annoying.

Yasha

Can you level VR ranks effectively just doing pvp and instanced dungeons? I would rather use my alts to go through the content of the other alliances.

Nox_Aeterna

Yasha wrote: »

Can you level VR ranks effectively just doing pvp and instanced dungeons? I would rather use my alts to go through the content of the other alliances.

Well , in theory the craglorn patch is meant to cover for this , it should give you a new area to lvl your vr.

Ofc , it still remains to be seen how well it works.

Ashigaru

Yasha wrote: »

Ashigaru wrote: »

Move grinding quests is about it.

Are there new quests that only a VR can do, or do you do the same quests that people just starting out do?

Same quests that the faction area you are in has just with vr ranked mobs.

Ashigaru

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

Can you level VR ranks effectively just doing pvp and instanced dungeons? I would rather use my alts to go through the content of the other alliances.

Well , in theory the craglorn patch is meant to cover for this , it should give you a new area to lvl your vr.

Ofc , it still remains to be seen how well it works.

Going to need to be 10 or close to it to be able to do anything in Craglorn.

Ashigaru

eliasadriancombsub17_ESO wrote: »

I've been feeling this lately, too. I'm just glad I didn't get past level 15 on any of my alts...but now if I wanna play my sorc alt instead of my nb main I'm doing the same quests, which is annoying.

Yep, there is a huge lack of content. Lets say you take 1 character to vr 10, you have just completed all the content in the game. No reason to roll an alt to experience a new factiobs content since you already completed everything.

Audigy

Yasha wrote: »

What is the point of VR apart from being more powerful in pvp?

You just do the quests in one of the other zones right? Why not just role an alt to do that? Is there something more that you experience during VR that you can't see on an alt in the other alliances?

VR is the place where you can improve your Char further as you gain skill points and such. While other MMO´s only offer gear to progress past max level, ESO offers more.
It is on you to decide what you prefer, I honestly like the ESO system much more. It reminds me a bit of the old Sandbox MMO´s, where you didn't had a level but a skill %. They can raise VR further with every content patch and our Chars will be stronger than those who just got to 50.

Lets face it, at WoW a long time level 90 isn't any different to a brand new level 90 that was bought in the shop. This wont happen at ESO, as a VR 10 is significant better than a level 50.

In my opinion and if you watch the recent MMO´s carefully, the days are coming back when max level wasn't the end of the Char development cycle. Wildstar has it, ESO does and if I am not mistaken that Sandbox MMO from Korea does so as well.

Zepheric

(Posted this in another thread gonna post it here for those that don't understand how VR leveling works, and what you really should be doing)

You gain the chief amount of your experience in each zone by completing quest obejctive AREAS (POI) as well as clearing public dungeons and all of the quests in your Cadwells Almanac.

Here is what I do to level up (Currently VR 4.5)

1. Do each world boss and clear every dungeon
2. Do all dolmens
3. complete almanac quests in that zone
4. move to next zone
5. repeat

Note: generally the quests you HAVE to complete range from 3-8 most of the time so you really shouldn't be questing all that much aside from the quests you get from the public dungeons as well.

At my rate, I will probably finish at VR 9 and have to quest through the final zone.
But that is not too terrible.

P.S.S * It should take you a couple of days to clear a VR level, or 1 day if you are getting groups fast and burning through quests. It takes awhile, so get used to that.

wrlifeboil

Audigy wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

What is the point of VR apart from being more powerful in pvp?

You just do the quests in one of the other zones right? Why not just role an alt to do that? Is there something more that you experience during VR that you can't see on an alt in the other alliances?

VR is the place where you can improve your Char further as you gain skill points and such. While other MMO´s only offer gear to progress past max level, ESO offers more.
It is on you to decide what you prefer, I honestly like the ESO system much more. It reminds me a bit of the old Sandbox MMO´s, where you didn't had a level but a skill %. They can raise VR further with every content patch and our Chars will be stronger than those who just got to 50.

Lets face it, at WoW a long time level 90 isn't any different to a brand new level 90 that was bought in the shop. This wont happen at ESO, as a VR 10 is significant better than a level 50.

In my opinion and if you watch the recent MMO´s carefully, the days are coming back when max level wasn't the end of the Char development cycle. Wildstar has it, ESO does and if I am not mistaken that Sandbox MMO from Korea does so as well.

Nothing new or revolutionary. ZOS merely masks the max level by changing the numbering system after level 49, with a maximum level of 59.

Anyone who plays WoW knows that at max level you improve your character through grinding gear rather than grinding xp. There is a huge difference between a fresh 90 wearing greens and a 90 wearing the latest arena epics or raid tier gear. It appears that ZOS will accomplish the same goals this by adding VR11 and VR12.

KerinKor

Audigy wrote: »

Yasha wrote: »

What is the point of VR apart from being more powerful in pvp?

You just do the quests in one of the other zones right? Why not just role an alt to do that? Is there something more that you experience during VR that you can't see on an alt in the other alliances?

VR is the place where you can improve your Char further as you gain skill points and such. While other MMO´s only offer gear to progress past max level, ESO offers more..

You're putting lipstick on a pig.

You talk as if 50 is the level cap and the VRs are end-game which are for 'improving your character'. Not at all true, as Craglorn shows current level cap is VR10 and Craglon will take it to VR12 so that's what you have to use in comparison with other MMOs .. and remember the 'finder' tool lists up to VR20.

So, in fact, to reach level cap ESO requires far, far, FAR more of a grind for the last 10 levels than any othe MMO I've played, except for perhaps FFXI released in 2002 and being Square Enix's Final Fantasy 'take' on EQ as they themselves said: I've seen one person say VR10 feels more like level 150 than level 60.

If we are to accept your explanation that level 50 is the level cap then it would be reasonable to presume that expansion content builds on that, but it won't. VR10 is already so hugely more powerful than 50 that it would make no sense for ZOS to start the next major content update at 50 as all the VR10s would whine it's too easy.

On that basis then VR10, or God knows maybe VR20, will be the practical cap.

This matters because in all MMOs the majority of players never raid so it's only the minority who progress from 'level 90 greens' as you put it. Those players of course won't be able to set foot into VR10 territory.

So, if we take your view then ZOS have set things up that anyone who wants to be able to play future content will HAVE to do the gear grind which in other MMOs is optional.

That will doom ESO to fail long-term, the numbers prepared to tolerate the horrible grind VRs clearly are won't be large enough to support it.


Also, ESO is not at all unique in offering non-gear progression, FFXI has Merits which are used to 'buy' new skills or improve existing ones, it was the way Square Enix implemented 'progression' available to all for several years while the level cap remained at 75: this was back in 2007 IIRC.

Even when they released content which upped the cap to 90, the mobs were tuned to level 75s without such improvements, since the skills bought with Merits weren't Godly compared to those at level 75, whereas in ESO VR10s ARE Godly compared to level 50s.

And as @wrlifeboil pointed out, your comment about long-tinme level 90s and fresh ones clearly shows you either have never played WOW in recent times or else you're deliberately painting a false picture of it in order to try to make ESO out to be some kind of paragon on the MMO world: you fandom of ESO is clear.

Pewpie

VR is just a way to re-use content. It is a dirty and ugly way to release the game without any real "endgame" content.

Basically, its just releasing a game that lacks anything to do when you hit cap lvl 50 (except for pvp perhaps), and throwing in some ugly hack to let people replay the game with mobs being level 50 instead of 1. And instead of having 100 levels, they scale it down to 60 and level 50-60 will take you the same as playing 1-50 two times over (or even longer?). Its like letting you play 2 alts through the alliance content but on one character.

I played my NB to VR2, then it just felt stupid playing through the content which i could do on an alt instead and enjoy another (not broken) class as well.

I just hope that for my NB VR levels i will be able to play something else to level in the future. I do not with to grind quests in the other alliances. I rather play alts there. Hopefully some endgame content will let you level VR1-10 in the future.

RianaTheBosmer

I agree with most of the comments here. They should make all new content level VR1 and not VR10. It ruins the game for those who play alts. They need to rethink that or they will lose players by the hordes I think.

ArRashid

Your faction's content (aka 1 to VR1) is there so you can LEARN THE BASICS.
At VR1, the REAL game starts, as everything is generally 10x stronger, uses other mechanics, etc..

Yasha

Pewpie wrote: »

VR is just a way to re-use content. It is a dirty and ugly way to release the game without any real "endgame" content.

Basically, its just releasing a game that lacks anything to do when you hit cap lvl 50 (except for pvp perhaps), and throwing in some ugly hack to let people replay the game with mobs being level 50 instead of 1. And instead of having 100 levels, they scale it down to 60 and level 50-60 will take you the same as playing 1-50 two times over (or even longer?). Its like letting you play 2 alts through the alliance content but on one character.

I played my NB to VR2, then it just felt stupid playing through the content which i could do on an alt instead and enjoy another (not broken) class as well.

I just hope that for my NB VR levels i will be able to play something else to level in the future. I do not with to grind quests in the other alliances. I rather play alts there. Hopefully some endgame content will let you level VR1-10 in the future.

Yeah that's kind of the feeling I have, but at the same time I also see it as an interesting design decision because in many mmos I have seen lower/mid level areas become really depopulated with the bulk of the player base at cap and with less new people joining the game.

For me personally, it makes more sense to do the areas with a race in the faction you are a part of, and also by starting alts you get skills faster and can try out whole new builds which adds some enjoyment.

I have alts in all factions and I am looking forward to the stories in all of them because they all look really interesting. The main downside for me is that by not doing VR pve I think you might be gimped for pvp- hopefully I can just queue for dungeons and do pvp on my main to level VR and level alts through the main story quests on the other factions.

If only there was a fourth faction so I could have a good incentive to level one of each class to 50....

Audigy

You talk as if 50 is the level cap and the VRs are end-game which are for 'improving your character'. Not at all true, as Craglorn shows current level cap is VR10 and Craglon will take it to VR12 so that's what you have to use in comparison with other MMOs .. and remember the 'finder' tool lists up to VR20.

People need to stop with that "Endgame" term, its really silly. MMO´s don't have Endgame, because MMO´s don't have an end. Yes WoW has one as they focus on Raids, but this isn't what an MMO actually stands for.
MMO´s are not about reaching the end, they are about a steady journey with your Chars. If you played on a Char for 5 years, then you must have seen things and be able to do things, that a new cant.

The VR levels at ESO are an extended Char progression, which makes any Char that is VR 10 or VR 20 significant stronger than a fresh level 50. Wildstar works the same btw. and there this exact same system is glorified by its customers, as a Char needs about 6 months to unlock everything so that a new Char will be weaker than an old, even if both are max level.

AT WS you level mainly by grinding mobs, at ESO we have all those quest´s - its on you to decide what you like more - but both systems work similar.

UO as example didn't even have those levels, there you started with the VR or Elder point system so to speak, right from logging in the first time. This is how MMO´s worked, you might not like it that's fine you are a different generation anyways, but this wont change the fact that this so called "Endgame" is flawed in many ways and as you can see more and more upcoming MMO´s go away from that which might should make you think about the reasons.

Maybe customers want back to the roots of MMO gaming, maybe they are tired of not having a Char progression at max level? Not everyone is a gear grinding maniac.

If we are to accept your explanation that level 50 is the level cap then it would be reasonable to presume that expansion content builds on that, but it won't. VR10 is already so hugely more powerful than 50 that it would make no sense for ZOS to start the next major content update at 50 as all the VR10s would whine it's too easy.

Why should they start at 50? This wouldn't make any sense to be honest! VR is a constant upgrade to your Char, its that journey which an MMO needs to have. It can very well be that we go up to VR 50 someday and that is the point. They give old players a significant bonus for their sub´s, while new players are behind.

Just like at Wildstar the concern will be, how attractive is such a model for new players that come a year later or so. A while ago we talked about this at the WS press show and it was an interesting discussion where exactly this was analyzed.

While this is a typical system for older MMO´s, it is something that was forgotten over the years. The term "catch up" was abused quite often there, like you suggested with Craglorn starting at VR1. In my opinion an MMO needs to show a difference between new and old chars, else people don't see a real value in playing, they get less attached which can be seen by the constant MMO hopping that happens right now.

Hardly anyone sticks to an MMO, as the Char is stuck at max level and cant progress further, while max level is reached within days or weeks.

So, if we take your view then ZOS have set things up that anyone who wants to be able to play future content will HAVE to do the gear grind which in other MMOs is optional.

Gear grind is never optional, show me an MMO where it is please! As soon Char progression is based on gear, you are forced to grind it out to see stuff. Look at WoW, if you want to raid or pvp, then you must grind for many weeks and months.

No green equipped player at WoW, will be able to raid HC! No, they must start right at the bottom of the tree and then farm the same raid for many months, by increasing the difficulty settings slightly.

VR´s offer the chance to see new content without the gear grind. Lets assume ZO introduces their next Adventure zone based on VR 12-15. The only thing that they will demand so to speak will be VR 12 as this is what the mobs will start with.

Just like now with VR 10. You don't need legendary gear there, but the VR. VR´s are Char progression, that's how content is balanced and not gear.
As someone who was around before MMO´s became gear grinds, I can tell you that this is a lot more fun than doing the same raid all day, just so that you can go to the next one.

I am quite sure that people don't need to step foot into trials and will still do perfectly fine at the next VR update.

That will doom ESO to fail long-term, the numbers prepared to tolerate the horrible grind VRs clearly are won't be large enough to support it.

As I said, the argument for Char progression past max level can be positive or negative. Old MMO´s all worked like that, max level wasn't the end of the Char progression, while many recent Developers feel that it should be.

With Wildstar and ESO leading the new MMO generation into old territories we will see how successful that type of concept will work today. Sure some like you will cry and dislike it, but I am sure others will feel a huge relief over the fact that they dont need to grind for gear anymore.

Time will tell, as simple as that and to just dislike something because it doesn't work like WoW is really silly and you only limit yourself with such an attitude.

Also, ESO is not at all unique in offering non-gear progression, FFXI has Merits which are used to 'buy' new skills or improve existing ones, it was the way Square Enix implemented 'progression' available to all for several years while the level cap remained at 75: this was back in 2007 IIRC.

I never said ZO invented it, I only said they bring back something that was forgotten for a long time and therefore they have a unique approach to the MMO franchise together with games like Wildstar and some upcoming Sandbox MMO´s where a new Char is new and not as good as an old.

And as @wrlifeboil pointed out, your comment about long-tinme level 90s and fresh ones clearly shows you either have never played WOW in recent times or else you're deliberately painting a false picture of it in order to try to make ESO out to be some kind of paragon on the MMO world: you fandom of ESO is clear.

Ok then tell me,

If I have a level 90 and play since Vanilla, how comes that someone who boost´s his Char to 90 is as powerful as my char? Yes I have more achievements, yes I have more gear - but the Char is not more powerful.

I don't have different spells, I don't have different abilities or anything else. If both Chars are naked, they are fully equal and this is the flaw at WoW and any other MMO that follows the gear grind progression.

New players are absolutely the same to old ones and this is in my opinion wrong.

At UO someone who was new couldn't cast spells as they fizzled, they healed less with bandages, missed many attacks, did less damage ...

At ESO a Char at VR 10 or 12 will have a much bigger Arsenal on spells, the char will be progressed further and the same principle we find at WS with the Elder system.

Like it or not, fact however remains that Chars will be less powerful if they are new and that's how it should be if you ask me.

KerinKor

ArRashid wrote: »

Your faction's content (aka 1 to VR1) is there so you can LEARN THE BASICS.
At VR1, the REAL game starts, as everything is generally 10x stronger, uses other mechanics, etc..

Ah, the tired old "the real game starts at level cap" argument, L2P NOOBS!

Given the small number of skills you have at your disposable and the fact you can only slot 6 at once, the almost total lack of decent CC and debuff prevention, this game is trivially easy to learn, you don't need to be level 50 to begin.

KerinKor

Audigy wrote: »

Like it or not, fact however remains that Chars will be less powerful if they are new and that's how it should be if you ask me.

That isn't the point but I won't try arguing with you, every post you make is a clear belief that ESO is better than anything else, and is the way of the future and you'll defend it against all attacks.

You're an ESO fan, I get that, however it is not good looking forward when ZOS seem to be expecting the majority to be happy grinding to VR10 or beyond when MMOs like WOW provide such content for those that want it but don't lock out the majority that don't.

Dekkameron

cromica81_ESO wrote: »

It is a cost effective way to keep some people paying a sub

I don't think it is really. I mean the prospect of grinding 4-5 characters to VR10 is somewhat off-putting as an altoholic.

Phantorang

By leveling VR you increase your max potential stats before you get soft capped

KerinKor

Phantorang wrote: »

By leveling VR you increase your max potential stats before you get soft capped

Which is why those who say level 50 is the cap and VRs equate to end-game gear grinds in other games are wrong to say that.

Hythrium

i hope further down the line, once vr20+ is available, that they will reduce the xp needed to obtain 1-10, so it doesn't feel so much like a grind.

a new place where you can level vr levels from the start would be nice also, so you do not have to do what you have already witnessed on your alts / on other factions.

Sorpaijen_ESO

Since I don't PvP, I fear that once I get to the "Veteran" content, I'll pretty much stop playing that character since I'll have already experienced (or WILL experience) that exact same content on my alts.

Granted, doing a mission at level 8 is different than doing it in a Veteran-rank-scaled encounter.... but the content of the quest is the same, just the difficulty of the fights may be higher.

I can only hope that they introduce new content (ideally non-VR rated) so that I can continue to play my roster of characters without repeating (too much) content. Already, I find myself groaning when I do the main story and Fighter/Mage guild quests ~again~ and again.

cromica81_ESO

Dekkameron wrote: »

cromica81_ESO wrote: »

It is a cost effective way to keep some people paying a sub

I don't think it is really. I mean the prospect of grinding 4-5 characters to VR10 is somewhat off-putting as an altoholic.

That's why I said some people and the fact that they didn't need to design extra content to keep people playing once they finished the main story is why it was cost effective for them.

apterous

i've been enjoying veteran ranks for like 2 weeks now. been doing lots of pvp and then moved to do pve whenever there was nothing to kill. now i've gotten into last alliance and i'm enjoying the challenge, now the monsters actually are hard and i *** love that. it propably will take me 2-3 more weeks to get to vr10 but i don't mind. the faster i get there the less there is for me to do, right? why not enjoy and play at your own pace.

elwhy

KerinKor wrote: »

ArRashid wrote: »

Your faction's content (aka 1 to VR1) is there so you can LEARN THE BASICS.
At VR1, the REAL game starts, as everything is generally 10x stronger, uses other mechanics, etc..

Ah, the tired old "the real game starts at level cap" argument, L2P NOOBS!

Given the small number of skills you have at your disposable and the fact you can only slot 6 at once, the almost total lack of decent CC and debuff prevention, this game is trivially easy to learn, you don't need to be level 50 to begin.

If they did design 1 - 50 to be beginner areas, where you learn to play and it's easier (which it kinda feels like), then they designed this game terribly. I like the VR levels because I do struggle and am forced to adjust my build and/or group up more, but I honestly wish the original faction quest line was a little harder. I didn't feel challenged really, and this is my first MMO and second RPG (skyrim was my first, I'm a late bloomer) so I'm definitely still learning how to play.
I guess my point is that I like a challenging game that forces you to think and reevaluate what you're doing in order to succeed, whether it's respeccing and organizing your abilities or figuring out puzzles and talking to NPCs in order to complete quests (really, we need hints to open a door? Or a hint to go to a city for a quest where your first objective is to go to said city? Or have to find a city that's clearly marked on our map?)

PBpsy

Reasons for VR
-Play in a more challenging mode and improve you play-style and builds.
-Play the other faction quest line without having to do the lackluster main and guilds storylines again.
-Play in a more free environment you can explore about 2 -3 ranks worth of areas if you craft good gear and you will not fell under and over leveled.Exploration is much more enjoyable in VR.
-Get tons of skill points.
-Get more money,gear and level crafting disciplines.
-Avoid having some mode where you have to do the same 9 quests and 3 dungeons every day and every week for tokens to get dumb RNG loot boxes i.e what people call enjoyable endgame.

Teevesnacks

Without VR I would have probably stuck to the very simple dps buld I made leveling 1-50

Also I get to see the other 2 factions with one character