Bots and the Law

k9mouse

Writing code for BOTs are not illegal, thus ZOS can not do anything on that ground. BOT / Gold Farmers are selling copyrighted content (aka gold and crafting mats) and selling them for real money.

Can ZOS take Gold Farmers to count for that? How does international copyright law work in a case like this?

thebugdulit

I have often wondered the same thing myself. These gold farmers are selling the digital property of Zenimax without their consent. It is similar to if we were to walk into a store and sell the store merchandise off the shelves to their own customers, keeping all profits and using their PA system to announce our intent to boot. They simply wouldn't stand for that. Not only are these farmers trying to do this, they are doing it. There has got to be some legal avenue to be pursued by Zenimax regarding this matter. One would think they have everything they need. The farmers even advertise the websites in zone chat. Should be all the legal team needs to take action. People can and have sued across international borders before and won.

zaria

Blizzard has sued some bot developers and won.
However going after people in foreign countries is hard and expensive

Anyway, lots of the bots run of accounts created with stolen credit cards.
An crime who easy gives jail time so they are not scared by legal action.

Tripp3r

k9mouse wrote: »

Writing code for BOTs are not illegal, thus ZOS can not do anything on that ground. BOT / Gold Farmers are selling copyrighted content (aka gold and crafting mats) and selling them for real money.

Can ZOS take Gold Farmers to count for that? How does international copyright law work in a case like this?

If there is any truth to the legends of "chinese gold farmers" (i'm not trying to imply any racism, sorry if i offend anyone)
good luck getting the Chinese government to hand one of their own over for a trial over a video game.
you guys ever seen what the chinese government did to WoW?, well.. they actually managed to make it worse.

Cybrdroyd

I saw a group of bots in a dungeon yesterday. I reported them.

nerevarine1138

zaria wrote: »

Blizzard has sued some bot developers and won.
However going after people in foreign countries is hard and expensive

Anyway, lots of the bots run of accounts created with stolen credit cards.
An crime who easy gives jail time so they are not scared by legal action.

This.

If the bot-makers or gold-sellers are based in America/Europe, a civil case is feasible. But since they generally aren't, most companies don't bother with the hassle, because that involves finding out the real identity of the culprits, tracking them down, serving them with papers, and somehow convincing their country of residence that they should care about US copyright and commercial laws.

sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO

I did recently read some topic about this. Company can try to bring them to court, but the problem is.... Gold sellers are usualy from china and russia and these countries usualy do not hand over their citizens to police for investigation. It is waste of resources for developers therefore they focus to combat them in software area. Which is not easy of course. You invent defence, opponent invent solution how to overcome it. Neverending cycle.

Orizuru

Most of the organized botters are located in countries that put them well beyond the reach of our criminal justice system.

Many of them are even considered legitimate companies in their country of origin.

SilentFox22

Those countries should be on their own server then maybe?
Then the only ones they have to buy/sell from is each other.

Orizuru

Rhass wrote: »

Those countries should be on their own server then maybe?
Then the only ones they have to buy/sell from is each other.

Other MMOs have tried this. It's a process known as "region locking". However, it's incredibly ineffective because if I'm in a country that is region locked to a specific server and I want to play on a different server, all I need to do is install a VPN and I can trick the servers into thinking I'm in any location in the world I want it to think I'm in.

SilentFox22

Maybe Zen could incorporate quests in game where Sneaks can conduct surveillance on botting (taking screenshots and vids) to submit as evidence (like we do with bug reporting) and get a reasonable gold reward ourselves on success after the evidence has been process by Zen. I think it would at least make it a little less annoying to have to stop and report every 5-10 min.

Also...why do all bots seem to be Argonians? Anyone else notice this?

Svann

Its not a matter for criminal law so arrests cant be made no matter what country they are from.

michaeljones161b16_ESO

Rhass wrote: »

Also...why do all bots seem to be Argonians? Anyone else notice this?

This is a bit racist!!!

I'm not a racist. Some of my best friends are Argonians.

kitsinni

China is notorious for ingoring copyright laws of other countries. Aside from that I'm not sure they are actually doing anything illegal just by selling gold. They are not selling the IP they are just breaking the TOS which would be grounds for a ban but not legal action.

You may get more traction approaching it as their blatant and repeated abuse of the TOS is diminishing the value of their IP, especially when banned accounts are starting new ones. The stealing of account information through phising would in order to make gold seller accounts illegal but there are maybe a handful of countries in the world that would do anything about it.

twev

kitsinni wrote: »

China is notorious for ingoring copyright laws of other countries. Aside from that I'm not sure they are actually doing anything illegal just by selling gold. They are not selling the IP they are just breaking the TOS which would be grounds for a ban but not legal action.

You may get more traction approaching it as their blatant and repeated abuse of the TOS is diminishing the value of their IP, especially when banned accounts are starting new ones. The stealing of account information through phising would in order to make gold seller accounts illegal but there are maybe a handful of countries in the world that would do anything about it.

It would depend on the account being paid for with stolen creditcard info or not, wouldn't it?

Wouldn't you expect that part of the cost I/We pay as a credit card user finances the lost revenue resulting from the fraud that is involved in Gold Farmers creating the hundreds or thousands of accounts they use that annoy the snot out of the players?

Just saying.....

Rev Rielle

If our foolish, impatient, childish, materialistic, money-obsessed, fellow players didn't associated with these criminals and/or their websites to buy whatever they're selling there wouldn't be a market for them and hence wouldn't be a problem. It's very disappointing. It's just a game after all. It never ceases to amaze me why people go to such lengths just to be 'better' than their fellow player.

kitsinni

twev wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

China is notorious for ingoring copyright laws of other countries. Aside from that I'm not sure they are actually doing anything illegal just by selling gold. They are not selling the IP they are just breaking the TOS which would be grounds for a ban but not legal action.

You may get more traction approaching it as their blatant and repeated abuse of the TOS is diminishing the value of their IP, especially when banned accounts are starting new ones. The stealing of account information through phising would in order to make gold seller accounts illegal but there are maybe a handful of countries in the world that would do anything about it.

It would depend on the account being paid for with stolen creditcard info or not, wouldn't it?

Wouldn't you expect that part of the cost I/We pay as a credit card user finances the lost revenue resulting from the fraud that is involved in Gold Farmers creating the hundreds or thousands of accounts they use that annoy the snot out of the players?

Just saying.....

Of course credit card fraud is illegal but that is a seperate offense to botting/gold selling. Like I said in the second paragraph it is also illegal to steal accounts. I still don't think you are going to get a country like China or Russia to investigate or charge any of their citizens with either for a crime the commited against an American company though.

nerevarine1138

kitsinni wrote: »

twev wrote: »

kitsinni wrote: »

China is notorious for ingoring copyright laws of other countries. Aside from that I'm not sure they are actually doing anything illegal just by selling gold. They are not selling the IP they are just breaking the TOS which would be grounds for a ban but not legal action.

You may get more traction approaching it as their blatant and repeated abuse of the TOS is diminishing the value of their IP, especially when banned accounts are starting new ones. The stealing of account information through phising would in order to make gold seller accounts illegal but there are maybe a handful of countries in the world that would do anything about it.

It would depend on the account being paid for with stolen creditcard info or not, wouldn't it?

Wouldn't you expect that part of the cost I/We pay as a credit card user finances the lost revenue resulting from the fraud that is involved in Gold Farmers creating the hundreds or thousands of accounts they use that annoy the snot out of the players?

Just saying.....

Of course credit card fraud is illegal but that is a seperate offense to botting/gold selling. Like I said in the second paragraph it is also illegal to steal accounts. I still don't think you are going to get a country like China or Russia to investigate or charge any of their citizens with either for a crime the commited against an American company though.

That's not because it isn't against the law, but it's because China and Russia don't care about American copyright laws (due to their thriving piracy industries). Commercial and contract law are still laws and grounds for a civil suit, but if the host country refuses to press charges or allow extradition, an American company can't do anything.

k9mouse

Why not go after the brokers? There are several different "types" of Gold Farmers:

1) Those who farm for endless hours (either by bot software and/or human work)
2) Spammers -- those who spam the chat channel with their "ads"
3) Those who store / warehouse the gold from group one
4) Then the brokers who run the web sites They are the "middle man" They buy game gold from those who bot, then sale it on their web site for real money.

They may or may not be the same "company" does all four. I heard they are different "companies" working with each other.

Why don't ZOS, Blizzard, Wildstar, EVE, etc team up and fight the brokers in counts?

Also, If ZOS can found the chars who are being used as warehouse and ban those accounts, ZOS will make the the ones who farm for hours wasted HUGE! amount of time. Besides, going after the "surface" ones like the bots and spammers..

nerevarine1138

k9mouse wrote: »

Why not go after the brokers? There are several different "types" of Gold Farmers:

1) Those who farm for endless hours (either by bot software and/or human work)
2) Spammers -- those who spam the chat channel with their "ads"
3) Those who store / warehouse the gold from group one
4) Then the brokers who run the web sites They are the "middle man" They buy game gold from those who bot, then sale it on their web site for real money.

They may or may not be the same "company" does all four. I heard they are different "companies" working with each other.

Why don't ZOS, Blizzard, Wildstar, EVE, etc team up and fight the brokers in counts?

Also, If ZOS can found the chars who are being used as warehouse and ban those accounts, ZOS will make the the ones who farm for hours wasted HUGE! amount of time. Besides, going after the "surface" ones like the bots and spammers..

Because all 4 of those things (which may not e different people) are run out of the aforementioned countries that won't let an American company file a civil suit. And there isn't a secret "warehouse" that the developers can't find. Gold is constantly being farmed, and the sellers can't be shut down quickly enough for finding one of the mules while they have the cash to matter.

You really want to stop gold selling? Instead of asking why the developers don't do more, ask why the players don't do more to police our own community. This problem only exists because too many of us tolerate it.

DragonMother

Perhaps a two prong attack on bots and buyers would be a good thought to keep in mind.

Bots are usually handled by an operator, and from what I have seen most of them are from mandarin spoken china, not only that, they are using techniques that are often found on "wardened" games such as wow and eve. Using multiple accounts but only one handled by an actual operator at the keyboard. The rest are ran on multiple windows, or different systems but connected with the same macroing programs. These programs have to be reprogrammed with each patch, so someone on the inside must be dropping TOC and API details to get past the security checks.

The buyers are pretty easy to find. Set a gold limit for the mail inbox, and a time limit a person can obtain the gold from the mail box. Secondly, set a gold limit on trade requests as well. No more huge sums being exchanged for petty items, shards, or regular crafted goods. Some of these buyers are being swindled by purchasing materials from these bot farmers, to craft better goods. In order to ruin the market, flood it with the materials and gold rewards.

Ruin the market, you ruin the bots purpose for farming, and the botters will find themselves at a loss of how to create a market in a game that has no avenues open to them.

Aett_Thorn

k9mouse wrote: »

Why not go after the brokers? There are several different "types" of Gold Farmers:

1) Those who farm for endless hours (either by bot software and/or human work)
2) Spammers -- those who spam the chat channel with their "ads"
3) Those who store / warehouse the gold from group one
4) Then the brokers who run the web sites They are the "middle man" They buy game gold from those who bot, then sale it on their web site for real money.

They may or may not be the same "company" does all four. I heard they are different "companies" working with each other.

Why don't ZOS, Blizzard, Wildstar, EVE, etc team up and fight the brokers in counts?

Also, If ZOS can found the chars who are being used as warehouse and ban those accounts, ZOS will make the the ones who farm for hours wasted HUGE! amount of time. Besides, going after the "surface" ones like the bots and spammers..

Well, in addition to what nerevarine said above, how would you show that the Brokers are doing anything illegal that could be prosecuted? What illegal act are they committing?

nerevarine1138

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

k9mouse wrote: »

Why not go after the brokers? There are several different "types" of Gold Farmers:

1) Those who farm for endless hours (either by bot software and/or human work)
2) Spammers -- those who spam the chat channel with their "ads"
3) Those who store / warehouse the gold from group one
4) Then the brokers who run the web sites They are the "middle man" They buy game gold from those who bot, then sale it on their web site for real money.

They may or may not be the same "company" does all four. I heard they are different "companies" working with each other.

Why don't ZOS, Blizzard, Wildstar, EVE, etc team up and fight the brokers in counts?

Also, If ZOS can found the chars who are being used as warehouse and ban those accounts, ZOS will make the the ones who farm for hours wasted HUGE! amount of time. Besides, going after the "surface" ones like the bots and spammers..

Well, in addition to what nerevarine said above, how would you show that the Brokers are doing anything illegal that could be prosecuted? What illegal act are they committing?

Well, running a site in order to facilitate illegal activity is also illegal, but their liability in these cases is still mostly a civil liability.

DragonMother

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

k9mouse wrote: »

Why not go after the brokers? There are several different "types" of Gold Farmers:

1) Those who farm for endless hours (either by bot software and/or human work)
2) Spammers -- those who spam the chat channel with their "ads"
3) Those who store / warehouse the gold from group one
4) Then the brokers who run the web sites They are the "middle man" They buy game gold from those who bot, then sale it on their web site for real money.

They may or may not be the same "company" does all four. I heard they are different "companies" working with each other.

Why don't ZOS, Blizzard, Wildstar, EVE, etc team up and fight the brokers in counts?

Also, If ZOS can found the chars who are being used as warehouse and ban those accounts, ZOS will make the the ones who farm for hours wasted HUGE! amount of time. Besides, going after the "surface" ones like the bots and spammers..

Well, in addition to what nerevarine said above, how would you show that the Brokers are doing anything illegal that could be prosecuted? What illegal act are they committing?

They are basically breaking the TOS and TOU of the game company, as well as their copy right on the goods they are vendoring to the subscribed public, as well as brokering private information such as email lists from the website that was illegally obtained (Hacking charges I do believe are international now as well as copy right abuse.) Thusly, in a legal standpoint they can be sued for every penny they try to earn on here, and then some, because the breaking of the game from it's original function and use is considered an illegal i.e. hacking act.

SDZald

One approach is to have in games sales, by the provider, that sales items cheaper then the Gold Farmers can make a profit at. Of course it kind of defeats the purpose of questing and destroys the in-game economy.

Another method, a bit draconian, is to make all items obtained in the game binding to the player that first gets the item. Of course that would mean zero in-game economy and kill crafting.

There are no easy answers and as has been said, as long as people in large enough numbers are willing to pay real dollars for in game items then there will be Gold Farmers.

Sarenia

No, there isn't much that ZOS can do from a legal standpoint about bots, unless they happen to win the proverbial lottery and track down the leader of a major bot-running server cluster located within a country who is willing to allow prosecution.

Blackhats like this at the very least take the minimal precaution of operating through VPN(s), making their origin extremely difficult to decipher. In China specifically, it's illegal to purchase real goods with virtual currency, but not the opposite, so prosecution there won't happen. They could just as well be Canadian or Ugandan as Chinese though (yes, even Americans bot... le gasp).

Technically "gold farming" on such a large scale as we see in ESO could easily be interpreted by a lawyer as "egregiously disrupting the service of, and customer experience within, the game software" and thus a parallel made to other attacks like DDoS.

The internet is still a wild place. Real world regional laws have had thousands of years to develop, but they can't be properly applied online. Some companies like the aforementioned Blizzard may be able to strike the occasional blow, but I wouldn't go expecting any major, world-changing legal victories regarding "gold farmers" in the near future.

Paks_ESO

Unless the company is located in a country with an agreement with the US that would cover botting/spamming/RMT, there is not much Zeni can do legally.

It's the credit card/game card fraud that really opens RMT up to violations under international laws. Most (if not all) RMT accounts are bought with fraudulent cards otherwise they would lose money left and right from buying more accounts after bans. Tying the fraudulent accounts to the RMT company(s) opens up avenues for legal action on an international scale.

Banks charge companies more to deal with them if the bank experience a high volume of charge backs or occurrences of fraud from transactions. For countries banks also take note if there is a high amount of credit card fraud coming from that country. Why do you think Russia's credit is ***? A lot of credit card number thefts can be traced back to Russia, which makes banks nervous. Of course, this isn't the only reason but it is part of it.

Zeni should be embarrassed and outraged that RMT has taken such a strong hold on their game so quickly. There is no excuse for any MMO to not take RMT very seriously, and it appears they did not. I could be wrong, and my apologies if I am but it does not appear that Zeni was prepared for RMT. They are working hard on combating it and I appreciate their efforts, but once devs get behind the eightball with RMT it's hell catching up.

k9mouse

I wonder when a ZOS ban a player, they should hand over that credit info to the police and / or the credit card company said that the credit number be stolen... Let the Credit cards companies track down any will be law breakers.

If we can make the Gold Farmers lose more money then they can make, they will go to an easier target instead....

Makkir

http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/18/4853318/blizzard-wins-world-of-warcraft-bot-lawsuit-ceiling-fan-software

This is a direct link to an article about Blizzard winning a $7million lawsuit against botter

ExiledKhallisi

Common mistakes and ignorance regarding bottling in mmo's:

1. For some reason it seems a lot of the people in ESO have never played a MMO before. They think bottling or RMT will go away... it won't.
2. RMT companies profit more off MMO's than the developers.
3. Players need a better way to report bottling. We need to be able to target "players" from far away and have the option to report them.
4. ESO needs a more active GM "on foot" staff. Seriously how hard would it be to run around the map and ban the packs of botters and flying bots.
5. Make gold hold less value. WoW did this and it dealt a large blow to gold farmers. Though they still exist.
6. People think botters are all foreign...lol
7. Active GM's should be snaking on popular bot/RMT sites and taking them down at the source.
8. these forums are horrendous we need a better format and a better way to communocate with support. You want this botting to go away but dont provide players with a better way to help.

I have said this for years and so have other people. Add a captcha to the game. Bots would be eliminated.

Perma ban IP's and player names.
Require true identification to make an account.

Krovax

There really is not much they can do except ruin the market for the goldsellers in some way, while trying not to ruin the game for the "normal" players. Also criminal suits are useless, because they're not dealing with just one "company" doing it, but you have dozens and more different parties involved. Even if you manage to take on down, you just increase the revenue for the others and two new competitors will replace the one you just managed to tackle.

As long as there is any kind of trade possible in a game, there will always be people that will try to make a profit of it and there will also always be people ready and willing to use these services.

Let's not kid ourselves, if it weren't for the buyers, these "companies" wouldn't exist.