Vampirism -Balancing toward playable yet immersive-

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Before doing this we must first evaluate the current situation on vampirism

- Passives - Not working

- Spells - Ultimate and regular skills are way to costly for what they provide while invigorating drain still is one of the best healing in the game the fact it force you to stop defending yourself for 3 second can put provide you a quick death sentence in veteran if your armor rating is any lower then the cap. While the 60% reduction was a good idea at first to make it good based on stage it proven to be that with stacking buff you could reach 0 ultimate cost wich is game breaking in its own right.

- Stage - Totally not immersive a vampire is suppose to feed constantly on any available blood available in a rotation between yet we never feed because stage four has all advantage and no disadvantage cept for the fact we look ugly (unfashionable).


Now a recapitulation of Elder scroll vampirism since oblivion

Oblivion (classic) - Vampire have 4 stage of feeding

stage 1: 25% fire damage 25% cold resistance 5% bonus to destruction magic hand to hand acrobatics and sneaking

stage 2: 50% fire damage 50% cold resistance 10% bonus to destruction magic hand to hand acrobatics and sneaking 1 sun damage per second 5% damage reduction from normal weapon.

stage 3: 75% fire damage 75% cold resistance 15% bonus to destruction magic hand to hand acrobatics and sneaking 5 sun damage per second 10% damage reduction from normal weapon.

stage 4: 100% fire damage 100% cold resistance bonus to destruction magic hand to hand acrobatics and sneaking 8 sun damage (cause death after 3 or 4 second) per second 20% damage reduction from normal weapon. People no longer want to talk to you

At all time gain immunity to poison and paralisis

Skyrim (witheout dawnguard) - Vampire still have 4 stage of feeding

Stage 1: 25% fire damage 25% cold resistance

Stage 2: 50% fire damage 50% cold resistance all vampire spell are 25% stronger (drain deals slightly better damage) Solar weakness reducing all regeneration rate by a serious amount while weakening your stats when exposed to sunlight

Stage 3: 75% fire damage 75% cold resistance all vampire spell are 50% stronger (drain deals better damage) Solar weakness reducing all regeneration rate by a serious amount while weakening your stats when exposed to sunlight (even stronger)

Stage 4: 100% fire damage 100% cold resistance all vampire spell are 75% stronger (drain deals way better damage) Everyone who sees you try to kill you. Solar weakness reducing all regeneration rate by a serious amount while weakening your stats when exposed to sunlight (even stronger)

At all time gain immunity to poison and paralisis and improved sneaking by 20%

Elder scroll online - Vampire has 4 stage

stage 1: no gain no weakness
stage 2: -25% on health regeneration +20% vampire spell cost reduction (now 7%)
stage 3: -50% on health regeneration +40% vampire spell cost reduction (now 14%)
stage 4: -75% on health regeneration +60% vampire spell cost reduction (now 21%)

Once trained 10% recovery on magicka and stamina reduction on damage taken when under 50% health and increased stealth speed at night

At all time 50% fire weakness ability to feed while sneaking

Conclusion - While oblivion and skyrim gave the player serious drawback as a reason to constantly feed (npc not talking or attacking you solar damage and weakness or just the increasing fire damage weakness) in exchange for strong powers ESO provides none and vampires end up never feeding at all due to behing effraid of behing weaker. What im proposing here is several change to vampirism so to bring the lane in line with the others witheout making it overpowered so here are the changes

Elder scroll online - Vampire has 4 stage

stage 1: 25% weakness to fire (no real advantage but you have low fire weakness)

stage 2: 50% weakness to fire -25% on health regeneration you recover 20% of the cost of vampire spell you use

stage 3: 75% weakness to fire -50% on health regeneration you recover 40% of the cost of vampire spell you use

stage 4: 100% weakness to fire -75% on health regeneration you recover 60% of the cost of vampire spell you use all npc attack or refuse to talk to you. Guards attack you on sight.

Once trained 10% recovery on magicka and stamina reduction on damage taken when under 50% health and increased stealth speed, all those buffs works only at night

At all time ability to feed while sneaking


Notice the subtle defrence? Instead of a cost reduction a part of the cost of vampire spell now is regained after use. This means no mather how low cost the ability is due to a certain broken synergy you are regaining a percentage of the final current cost wich in the case of the 43% cost reduction build means instead of recovering 120 ultimate on a 200 ultimate cost you will only recover 68.4 of a 114 ultimate bar effectively making the recovery lower depending on how much you reduced your ultimate cost (the recovery scaling down with the total spell cost make it effectively impossible to reach the 0 ever again)

You should also notice the fire damage become increasingly threatening as the stage advances toward final stage at which the 100% makes pretty much any fire attack a death sentence. You may choose to keep progressing your vampirism to stage 4 until you reach an area wich is filled with fire monster in wich case you will hastily try to reduce it back to a lower stage to make it manageable or try to survive witheout getting hit by them.

Stage 4 making people refuse to talk/guard attack also will be a deterrent to simply ignoring your urge to feed as you will need to often go on the hunt to allow yourself to be human enough to talk to npc (pretty much like in oblivion and skyrim) Thus most vampire will swim between stage 1-2-3 and will only go 4 when they need a power boost to farm pve public dungeons which does not involve fire etc.

Also take note all vampire passive now only work at night or in dark area making vampire a situational build which works best in a shadowy environment and very poorly in the sunlight therefore keeping the theme intact and the spec balanced.

The 100% fire damage weakness will effectively make it very difficult for any vampire who wants to spam bat swarm to actualy farm cyrodiil the way they did before because while the ultimate cost indeed will be reduced only sorcerer with 2h sword will be able to spam it more then once per 15 second and even then they will likely die the moment someone use a fire move on them (hence why stage 4 fire weakness needs to be lethal to counterbalance the ultimate recovery from use) Vampire will have a hard counter to their build will no longuer be OP in cyrodiil and will be playable in pve the way they were intended to all that while making an efficient feeding rotation!

We get flavor, power rotation, and balance I think that would make everyone somewhat happy

By all means what do you think of this suggestion?

nerevarine1138

I agree that vampires need to have more disadvantages, especially on a social level in the game.

But passives do work, assuming you haven't died recently, and Invigorating Drain/Bats are insanely powerful, even after the nerfs and exploit fixes.

Reenlister

yes.
The whole of the vampire is currently devoted to not feeding. As you said, the only ill effect is cosmetic.
I think Vamps should gain while fed, and suffer for not. Or if not gain, at least be at their overall peak while well fed.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Feeding would provide them weakened risk toward fire allowing them to survive heavy flammable content easyer while allowing them to talk to npc. Not feeding would grant them power as usual but it would increase their weakness to fire and make npc at stage four have a serious hate syndrome thus you would want to stick to stage 3 at best like in skyrim, always liking the additional power but afraid of the deadline upon wich everyone might turn against you. While skyrim and oblivion did have a solar weakness npc and quest are way more common in ESO then explorable dungeon where you can actualy bother to ignore what you look like. ESO provided lore about this strain of vampirism as behing immune to sun damage and gaining power at night however this doesn't justify vampire having all the power at Stage four witheout any drawback. I think npc attacking you would already be a major drawback (you cant do quest if the npc wont talk to you), if we add increasing fire damage to that we get the recipe for a balanced vampire stage rotation.

as such
Well fed (stage 1) = next to no weakness but no real gain
Starving (stage 4) = life threatening weaknesses but lot of power

Goibot

@Kyubi_3002b16_ESO I can see you have put a lot of though into this. I would also agree with you if this was the way it was intended to be played upon release. How many Vamps do you think are in the game now? This change would cause quite a bit of rage/quit.

I want a thriving community in ESO not empty servers. If your suggestion was implemented it would be a serious nerf to the skill line that already is broken and so far has been the only line in the game to be nerfed.

Before calling on nerfing peoples skill lines I would suggest they get them working correctly first.

When people log on one day and can't do what they did the day before due to a nerf they will leave. How empty do you want the servers?

Reenlister

Goibot wrote: »

@Kyubi_3002b16_ESO I can see you have put a lot of though into this. I would also agree with you if this was the way it was intended to be played upon release. How many Vamps do you think are in the game now? This change would cause quite a bit of rage/quit.

I want a thriving community in ESO not empty servers. If your suggestion was implemented it would be a serious nerf to the skill line that already is broken and so far has been the only line in the game to be nerfed.

Before calling on nerfing peoples skill lines I would suggest they get them working correctly first.

When people log on one day and can't do what they did the day before due to a nerf they will leave. How empty do you want the servers?

I would agree, except... The Vamp has been a fubar since release. As has the WW.
Both need to simply be re done. Granted it sux in some ways, but something has to happen to fix them.
I will not pretend to know the answers on what or how to make them what they should be, its been long spoken of now. I do know that as I said, both are pretty fubar right now.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Actualy I wouldn't call it a nerf.. basically we putting back the ultimate cost to 80 at stage 4 however you will need to charge the full the full 200 bar to even use it (considering if you have used it last you start at 120/200). same for any vampire spell you will need to have the cost available so to even use it. After you will recover 60% of the cost in magicka or ultimate thus preventing cost reduction abuse while keeping the spell cost varying between stages. This is in no way a nerf its a way to keep the stat as they were before that failed fix witheout ruining everything else. If I wanted a buff id have added to the vampire poison immunity as well as frost resistance increasing based on stage

Sure they need to fix the broken passives first but if everything is working we actualy have a line wich works better then prior to the 60% to 21% nerf to vampirism while keeping the ugly cost reduction abuser in cyrodiil away and adding a balanced stage system.

What are you effraid off? the ultimate cost reduction stacking already was a glitch this fix would make the spec non reliant on it anymore thus preventing the perma bat build while keeping the vampirism good to all who run just anything else

concobar

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

Feeding would provide them weakened risk toward fire allowing them to survive heavy flammable content easyer while allowing them to talk to npc. Not feeding would grant them power as usual but it would increase their weakness to fire and make npc at stage four have a serious hate syndrome thus you would want to stick to stage 3 at best like in skyrim, always liking the additional power but afraid of the deadline upon wich everyone might turn against you. While skyrim and oblivion did have a solar weakness npc and quest are way more common in ESO then explorable dungeon where you can actualy bother to ignore what you look like. ESO provided lore about this strain of vampirism as behing immune to sun damage and gaining power at night however this doesn't justify vampire having all the power at Stage four witheout any drawback. I think npc attacking you would already be a major drawback (you cant do quest if the npc wont talk to you), if we add increasing fire damage to that we get the recipe for a balanced vampire stage rotation.

as such
Well fed (stage 1) = next to no weakness but no real gain
Starving (stage 4) = life threatening weaknesses but lot of power

Currently the supposed life threatening weakness is the same at all stages.

ElliottXO

A lot of ESO players want to be vampires, but only the minority of them accepts the inconvenience of an immersive vampire gameplay.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

hence why it must be at 25% at stage 1 and increase by 25% on every stage. You can use the fire weakness as a way to make vampire choose between their stage because depending on the situation they may choose to increase or weaken it.

As anyone would say you... no pain no gain you cant get tons of power without also taking the limitation it brings in so it has always been with vampire in Elder scroll games. You get stronguer but you got to live with constant stinging annoyance like sun damage/weakness and the npc hating on you wich reminds you you didn't get those power witheout a sacrifice. A fire dragon wich yesterday was a joke becomes a serious threat however that bandit lord wich you used to be effraid of becomes a snack.

Look for exemple at Dracula... he has tons of otherworldy power ranging from hypnotism, mist form, near indestructibility and control of many stuff related to shadow yet he cannot cross water he cannot enter a house witheout behing invited suns will instantly kill him and im not talking about all the other inconvenience vampire got to live with.

concobar

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

hence why it must be at 25% at stage 1 and increase by 25% on every stage. You can use the fire weakness as a way to make vampire choose between their stage because depending on the situation they may choose to increase or weaken it.

As anyone would say you... no pain no gain you cant get tons of power without also taking the limitation it brings in.

No, it should be 0% at stage one and increase to 50% at stage four. The abilities vampires currently have do not justify making them suffer double damage from the most common damage type in the game, especially in PvP.

concobar

ElliottXO wrote: »

A lot of ESO players want to be vampires, but only the minority of them accepts the inconvenience of an immersive vampire gameplay.

What inconvenience?

SaibotLiu

I think they took the wrong approach to nerfing the hell out of vampire. I never had any intention or interest in being a vampire, and I felt they were grossly overpowered given what I saw of them in Cyrodiil. Yeah it sucked.

That said, give them all that power and "I win buttons"...instead design one other skill tree that is devoted to absolutely crushing them with impunity, like fighters guild on steroids. Everyone who doesn't want to a vampire will take that skill and gleefully destroy them, and the vamps will come on the forums crying about balance, ironically.

My solution is by far the most fun for all parties involved, and vampires get to keep their prenerf abilities.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

well they could also make it 0 stage one and increase it by 33% per stage up to 100.

Prenerf ability weren't acceptable but there are way to make it possible again witheout ruining the line or opening it up all over again to ultimate spammer.

concobar

Fighters guild and fire destro staff own vamps currently.

Goibot

@Kyubi_3002b16_ESO I'm sorry but I do disagree, this would be a serious nerf. Making it where guards attack on sight would make it pretty rough to even get quests much less complete one. More fire damage, vamps get one shot by fire damage on world bosses now. No disrespect intended but yes what you are proposing would be a serious nerf and would create a lot of rage/quite no matter which way you spin it.

If they way you suggest was how it was implemented in the game at launch this would be totally different. I would probably play one just for the challenge. But now we need the nerf hammer to be put away.

What needs to happen now is the skill lines get fixed, not just vamps either look at WW and NB's too.

Huggernaut

First off - this is not a single player game.

Just because it worked in another version of another game tied to this particular universe, doesn't mean it has any place here.

You MUST get this through your head before any head way can be made. I keep seeing people say "Oh well, in oblivion / morrowind / etc etc" who cares? doesn't mean anything because those aren't MMOs.

End of story. Period.

Now, once you've realised this, we can move on...

First off, yes, I agree not having to feed seems counter intuitive. However, forcing people to feed is just as bad as what we have currently imho.

What needs to happen is we need to be given bonuses for feeding, for example:

- Each stage, from 1 through 4 is on a timer. As you grow older, you grow more powerful. I think we can all agree this is true for most vampiric lore. Now, what I am suggesting, is during each of these phases, if we feed we get benefits/reduce negatives, such as:

1. Cosmetic changes, feeding reduces the horrendously fugly look we get @ stage 4 (minus the eyes, they are fine, but the skin ... my god *shudder*)

2. Increase damage from fire passively, however, feeding can reduce this penalty.

3. Feeding can improve stats, be it power, movement speed, etc. Lack of feeding can cause detriments.

and so on and so forth.

See, the thing you have to keep mind is this:

No one wants to be punished for trying to play the game in a way they find enjoyable.

A lot of people like being a vampire, and if you stack a ton of negatives on these people, like, and I swear this is by the stupidest thing they could do, making people damage from sunlight ... no one would ever be a vampire. Period.

Yes, lots of vampires in different literature, movies, etc take damage from sunlight, not going to try to debate that fact. However, Trying to play a game (which you are paying a monthly sub to access), that you wouldn't be able to even do anything in for many hours per day due to the day / night cycle ... would just be impossibly stupid.

Honestly, I think the amount of damage werewolves / vamps take from certain skill lines / combos, is already WAY over the top, and far exceed any CURRENT benefits we are receiving.

Now, that is not to say things can't change down the line. Which I hope is true.

Long story short, There needs to be a better balance between positive and negative effects and feeding needs to reinforce those positives, while lessening the negatives, otherwise no one will ever bother to feed (ie: what we have currently). Yet at the same time, the positive & negative effects can't be so unbalanced that people are forced to feed every few minutes, which would serve no purpose at all, other than to greatly annoy people.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

The active aren't worth using with their cost right now in a build and the ultimate is subpar to most spell. What made it usefull was the cost/effect gain as the ultimate gave a somewhat good effect for a low cost and thus was usefull at stage 4, With the current nerf pretty much nothing in the vampire skill line is worth making a build with save for the passive and at this point you are better off NOT running vampire at all unless you plan to perma stay stage 4 (wich even then has way to high a cost on spell) wich is unacceptable in itself because vampire aren't suppose to constantly stay in stage 4.

Sure we could do the conversion from 60% cost reduction to regain 60% of the cost of vampire spell used however this wouldn't fix the issue of stage 4 at all and people will keep ignoring to feed on purpose.

Zenimax is dead serious about keeping vampire getting stronguer only when starving and they will never make vampire stronger when in lower stage. the only way we can give player incentive to feed between stage 1 and 4 is to give them major weakness wich will make them think it over between having huge power and dangerous weakness and having next to no power and no weakness

The skill line will never be truly fixed for as long as all of its active will remain subpar to anything your class can provide. You choosen vampirism to gain the active and passive at the cost of taking the weaknesses of a vampire upon you. Sure a little flavor would be all fine if you didn't take fire damage to begin with or a major decrease to self regen out of battle. Vampirism however wasn't designed to be flavor as it both require you to invest skill point in the spec and live with the flaws all vampire get to know.

If a vampire is refusing to use her ability because she can use any other of her class move in its place for better result there is a serious issue as to why vampirism exist in the first place as a path option. Why would I use invigorating drain over the heal my class got? Well back in the day I could have said ''because it cost next to nothing to use and It allows me to recover in battle'' today I can no longer say that because I have to pay the full cost of a heavy mana consuming spell and stand 3 second open to all hit.

As you said they could break down vampirism and redo it entirely as something that can actualy work and is worth taking wich wont be subpar to class spell in the case the guy take it (if the guy took vampirism actives and ultimate over his class actives and ultimate he should get a run for his money not some underpowered ability) But that wouldn't be a viable choice unless there are serious reason to pick it up.

Phinix1

Personally I am against most of these suggestions. First, the increasing weakness to fire seems like somewhat of a "hack fix" with no real meaningful reason for it lore-wise other than "vampires need to get weaker somehow." Besides, with capped spell resist I still get 1-shot to token environmental fire damage on occasions as it is.

Comparing this to the single player games isn't really viable either. For one thing the tactics in those games was completely different. You could effectively "pause" the game at any time to consider your next move, browse your inventory for potions or what have you, or set your time scale so that time passed at real-time (1 hour in game lasts 1 hour in real life), which many do for realism and is NOT cheating, but which makes nights last long enough for some of the things you suggest to be worth it.

In a fast progressing MMO, all this does is introduce inappropriate burden on people trying to quest, and makes vampires a weak hindrance and a nuisance instead of a unique and interesting side-game, to suit people who have the OPINION they need to be so because they personally say it should be that way.

I have said it before and I will say it again, having NPC's attack you at ANY stage is a horrible idea. Imagine being stuck out questing only to have your stage slip in an area with no humanoids to feed on. What if you aren't able to get to a wayshrine to get to a feeding ground due to them being surrounded with attack-on-site NPC's? Or you port to one through party/guild teleport only to die on spawning? Punishing players with meaningless nuisances and time sinks like this for customizing their character a certain way is selfish and unrealistic, and serves no real purpose in terms of game balance.

Imagine running a dungeon or a new adventure zone and it taking a while, and your level slips. Now you aren't able to turn in your quest because you are stuck in a dungeon with nothing to feed on and the NPC's attack you on site? Should we have questing grind to a halt in an MMO just to suit the opinion that vampires need more arbitrary inconvenience for YOUR RP purposes? Not for my subscription fee, no thank you.

However, as to the other idea you suggest, this is not so bad. Having it refund you a percent of the cost of vampire spells AFTER other cost reduction is taken into account would be one albeit perhaps overly complicated way of handling things, so long as the return is a bit more than it is currently.

As it is, you basically have to stay in stage 4 just to make the 21% reduction worth it at all, which still isn't stellar, otherwise you get the fire weakness, the reduced health regeneration (which you DO notice) with basically no benefit other than the drain spell which is good (but will kill you in veteran levels since it can't out heal the damage you take while you're incapacitated) and maybe bats if you morph it for healing to help compensate.

A far simpler solution, would have been to simply make the reduced cost of vampire spells not apply to ultimate abilities, or apply less to ultimate abilities.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

What you suggesting here doesn't fix the issue that stage 4 vampire doesn't scare people at all into feeding. I have the hard idea vampirism will indeed taste the justice system hammer the moment it comes in because that would just be Zenimax way of introducing vampires to it as well as just any spec who runs into the dark zone. With this in consideration I am looking at how stage 1 can be more interesting to run then stage 2 or 3. Fire weakness of course course be the solution because technicaly as I wrote before no one care for the health degen or at least no one with a build that doesn't fail by having no self healing ability (even if you don't run drain you likely are running something else to heal else I feel sad for you)

Considering how you will have more then 2 hour of play before stage 4 kicks in unless you've been careless you should be all right to feed on the next humanoid you find. I currently run a vampire archer in stage one just so I can keep my face pretty and that's actually doable long as you keep looking constantly for the next meal while exploring. I also suspect Zenimax will increase the number of wandering npc across the world so vampires can actualy attack people who aren't behing cautious. If it also happens to be you can bite people silently witheout drawing attention in the future like in skyrim and oblivion (aka the sneak bite wich unless noticed by the guard wont bring any attention on yourself) you will likely be able to feed from time to time in town on unsuspecting npc in their house. Maybe they will even add a non harmfull spell called vampire seduction wich will allow to make the npc pliant before a bite so they don't call off all the guard in town and in battle will just CC a mob for a few second so it wont attack.

The other solution wich is way less pleasant is an increasing solar weakness wich will not go to well with their ''our vampire don't take effect from the sun'' lore

Phinix1

Here is the thing I have trouble with:

All of these threads seem to focus on "vampires need to be weaker and need to be inconvenienced/nerfed EVEN MORE", without really saying WHY? To me, the ONLY reason we should be talking about this is for the purpose of GAME BALANCE. Right now, vampires are a little weaker for their trouble. It really seems people just have some obsessive need to punish vampires for the damage a few exploiters caused with no real reason besides their own personal prejudice.

What do you care?

The solution to this problem was pretty simple, as I have said numerous times. Make the magic reduction not effect ultimate, or effect it less. But now our skill line has been nerfed into an immersion-breaking state where you basically have to remain in stage 4 to make the only passive benefits worth anything for all the weakness it carries, and people are crying for MORE, and with no real balancing reason for it?

Seems pretty selfish to me.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Im a vet 3 vampire nightblade here I am not asking for a nerf.

I understand stage system is broken

I understand permanent bat form is broken and ned to be nerf

however...

I don't agree with the 21% cost at stage 4 this is ridiculus and it only make the spec as a whole a poor choice 60% was fine until some genius made it cost 0 as such having it back at 80 should be the first order of the day then find a way to make it stay balanced (this is why I subjested the cost recover instead of cost reduction)

I don't agree with the fact you endure 50% fire weakness on all stage this should vary between lower and higher weakness depending on the stage not have it at a fixed value. Having no drawback on stage 4 versus stage 1 is utherly wrong there should be at least 1 serious reason not to reach stage 4 and stay constantly in it.

I got no reason to go to stage one save a health degen wich don't even mather to begin with that isn't right. Not to mention health degen never existed before with vampirism. degen should apply only under sunlight.

Neferath

Well except of the Bat Swarm Stack bug wich is allready fixed, the ultimate cost reduction problem isnt vampire related but connected to a sorcerer passive skill, the ability of the dk class to recover ultimate power at a high pace and the combination of either of them with set items wich reduce the overall costs of ultimate spells.

Therefore the changes you suggest @Kyubi_3002b16_ESO actually "would be a vampire nerf" and nothing else.

I think a way better approach to solve this issue would be to generally cap the maximum ultimate cost reduction you are able to achieve in this game instead of nerfing vampires again while none vampires can still fully benefit from the cost reduction.

I agree that vampires and werewolfs should be "changed" in some ways in order to make them more immersive. Also i especially agree on the point that vampires really should be forced to feed on a regular basis.

I like your idea of NPC's not willing to talk to vampires at stage 4 also guards attacking you on sight could be a nice thing especially since i never liked the fact that here, at TESO, not a single NPC - not even vampire npc's or those, who are connected to vampire related quests recognize me as a vampire. The first example that comes in my mind here is a quest that did send me out in order to get some vampire blood and all i thought was "Erm well hello? I am a vampire so why dont you simply take my blood?"

But well regardless, i dont think that raising the allready existing drawbacks for vampires like the increased vulnerability to fire damage or the lowered health regeneration are a valid solution here. This would - just like stated before by someone else in this thread - only drive people to rage quit the game.

Something that actually could be an interesting way to force people to feed, is first your NPC idea and second - oh and i really would love to see something like this - a chance that some sort of Blood Frenzy hits you while on stage 4.

It could look like this:

Vampirism Stage 4:
-75% on health regeneration, vampire spell cost reduction 21%
- NPC's refuse to talk to you, NPC Guards will attack you on sight.
- Blood Frenzy with a chance of (?) % your character will go frenzy and attack the next humanoid PC / NPC in range in order to feed. During the state of frenzy you'll loose all control over your character.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

blood frenzy would be a cool idea to have instead of the other drawback but I don't think zenimax would design something like that anytime soon

The 21% is the worst idea they ever had Id want them to put it back to 60% or remove it entirely and replace it with something that will make the vampire spells easier to cast. Vampirism will never be acceptable to play as long as the spell cost higher then a heavy healing Templar ability and the ultimate cost is above anything but 120.

You guys play with the passive.. explain me why the hell you aren't enticed at all by the active? Because they are underpowered right now that's why. They need make poison mist deal its damage correctly reduce the ultimate cost so to put it on par with stuff like dragon leap or other low cost ultimate (because as a 5 second damaging ultimate that only heals you its hardly justifying its current 200 cost as a damage based ultimate wich brings nothing to the party or to the user but its damage and self healing when morphed effect) and either make drain a cast and let go that doesn't force you into a double edged sword or make its effect instantaneous.

The current cost of the vampire ability is unacceptable for its effect/cost ratio stop pretending the reverse these needs to have their cost reduction dramatically to even be viable as a choice amonst the others.

Spiritreaver_ESO

OR

Speaking as a player whose main is a Vampire, we can just roll with the changes and adapt to them.

Players that really wanted to play vampire characters are still going to. The only difference now is, the guys and gals who wanted to be vampires to be 'teh uberzz!!!111!' are gonna skip it and jump on the next big thing, whatever that turns out to be.

I appreciate the time and thought you put into you OP @Kyubi_3002b16_ESO, but i own Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim. And if i want to experience a vampire playthrough in the styles of those games, i'll load them up. I'll take the TESO version as it is delivered, with the knowledge that it can change on the devs' whim-as this IS a MMO after all.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

I play the currently underpowered vampire spec on purpose on all my character because I want to be a vampire this doesn't mean I agree with what this spec currently provide. I shouldn't be playing vampirism because of the roleplay alone but also because I have some serious reason doing it as a viable build choice rather then go WW or simply stay human with that character. Right now you have more incentive NOT going vampire then going vampire which is hardly right. There needs to be a shine to both side of the coin else its just a odd with no even and everyone who wants to play even will do it because they like the idea of the challenge it provide. I couldn't give more of a ''very bad word'' about the challenge im playing vampire because I want to play and feel like one on both my build and my rp witheout having to be weaker then other player, I demand equality of the power balance and right now there is no equality because vampire is subpar and will stay subpar even with its passive working unless they make it so vamp has some reason to be a vampire and not just another guy who runs with extra passives.

I shouldn't be considered as ''less viable'' because I use the current devouring swarm mist form or invigorating drain in my build. Do you kick people for behing nightblade from your party or replace them willingly with a sorcerer (if yes remind me to actualy put you on my ignore list the moment I get online)? Saying vampire don't deserve to at least be a viable way is the same as saying people should always play X build with Y setting and nothing else unless they doing it for the flavor. I put skillpoint in this line there is no reason I should be weaker in battle then a guy who didn't put skillpoint in it or worse yet actualy spent those extra skill point into a crafting skill.

If I put skill point In the use of dual wield or bow is that a flavor to? Vampirism is and will always be about getting power in exchange for disadvantage. I spent several point in those lines I should as such get more then just a ''flavor''.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

I play the currently underpowered vampire spec on purpose on all my character because I want to be a vampire this doesn't mean I agree with what this spec currently provide. I shouldn't be playing vampirism because of the roleplay alone but also because I have some serious reason doing it as a viable build choice rather then go WW or simply stay human with that character. Right now you have more incentive NOT going vampire then going vampire which is hardly right. There needs to be a shine to both side of the coin else its just a odd with no even and everyone who wants to play even will do it because they like the idea of the challenge it provide. I couldn't give more of a ''very bad word'' about the challenge im playing vampire because I want to play and feel like one on both my build and my rp witheout having to be weaker then other player, I demand equality of the power balance and right now there is no equality because vampire is subpar and will stay subpar even with its passive working unless they make it so vamp has some reason to be a vampire and not just another guy who runs with extra passives.

I shouldn't be considered as ''less viable'' because I use the current devouring swarm mist form or invigorating drain in my build. Do you kick people for behing nightblade from your party or replace them willingly with a sorcerer (if yes remind me to actualy put you on my ignore list the moment I get online)? Saying vampire don't deserve to at least be a viable way is the same as saying people should always play X build with Y setting and nothing else unless they doing it for the flavor. I put skillpoint in this line there is no reason I should be weaker in battle then a guy who didn't put skillpoint in it or worse yet actualy spent those extra skill point into a crafting skill.

If I put skill point In the use of dual wield or bow is that a flavor to? Vampirism is and will always be about getting power in exchange for disadvantage. I spent several point in those lines I should as such get more then just a ''flavor''.

You make valid points, up until the last bit with the comparison of the vampirism skill line to say dual wield or bow skill lines, which is not really a fair one. But i think you are forgetting the one major issue and one ancillary issue that makes your want(or your perceived want, to be fair) of more bonuses to vampire really unfeasible.

The main issue is that this is a MMO and not a single-player game. If you make a non-class skill line like Vampirism have bonuses that outweigh negatives, you are gonna have a situation-like we have now really-where a lot of ppl are going to want to have that skill line. And in some situations it might even be where having Vampirism or lycanthropy is a player enforced requirement for inclusion in whatever or even becomes the norm.

And honestly, and as a community we were well on our way to that point. Which leads right into the other concern: ZOS wants every player to have the ability to enjoy every aspect of the game; but that does not mean that they want every player to be either a WW or a vampire.

So really, yes, vampirism and lycanthropy, imo anyways, have to kinda stay flavor skill lines without overly pronounced benefits. Of course they have to have some, but not to the point where negatives are just shrugged off in favor of them, as again was recently the case-for vampirism in anyways. They aren't classes unto themselves and when they start getting thought of as such, they have to be adjusted.

And we really should take how ZOS is handling this to heart as i feel this is going to be the way additional skill lines are handled in the future. Lines like the Dark Brotherhood, Thieve's Guild, etc.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

because having a huge negative isnt enought? Justice is coming soon and Vamp as i can bet will be heavily nerfed by it.

Spiritreaver_ESO

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

because having a huge negative isnt enought? Justice is coming soon and Vamp as i can bet will be heavily nerfed by it.

Now you've just moved on to wild speculation.

If anything, wouldn't you be looking forward to the Justice system and how it may possibly positively interact with the vampirism skill line? Personally, i'm hoping that NPCs outside of combat areas are gonna become fair game to feed from, making it easier to stay in lower level stages.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

im indeed looking forward to the justice system. but im also looking forward to them stoping nerfing the spec to... Vampire will have enought drawback once the npc starts to meddle in to justify all the buff it had prior to the 21% nerf. They will likely bring 80 back in a defrent way so to keep vampirism on par with its many drawback. I shouldnt have to pay my spec further then the fire weakness and angry npc. Vampirism isnt a flavor its more of an alternate class or a prestige class... totaly optional yet as powerfull as if specing all the way trought the class if not more. If vampirism was simply to be as good as a class we shouldnt have drawback in the first place because why then people shouldnt run anything else? Vampirism is not just an option its a path. Maybe a path amonst many but still a path wich in all concern should be as viable as an additionnal class tree in its own right with the drawback to pay for it.

Im willing to sacrifice many things to make vampirism a viable path as viable as running a destruction staff or a bow if not more because unlike running either of these 2 vampirism force you into many inconvenance. A flavor shouldnt come with drawback if it is a flavor at all neither should it give anything usefull. If vampirism was a flavor it would be esthetic only... well it happens vampirism is not a flavor but a skill line in its own right just the same as WW wich tbh could at least be improved into a worthwhile ultimate.

WW and vampirism should be as viable if not more viable in non vs weakness battle then regular builds (they pay for that bonus effectiveness by having their own effectiveness behing subject to circonstance)

Again i cant be in the dev head but i think Vampirism wasnt intended as a flavor but as a skill line just as worthwhile as any of your own class skill line. They delibaretly tryed to make vampirism a way of play in its own right (you are playing VAMPIRE) but kind of failed at it because it was so strong it became a requirement to play correctly. Vampirism specing should be as viable as specing into a class skill line however this extra skill line wich is somewhat slightly stronger needs to be paid accordingly with weakness of its own. Thats why i call on the npc assault the increased fire weakness on stages and the vulnerability to fighters guild ability.

GhostlyEnigma

You know a there is a way that would be much simpler to do to fix the feeding issue is to flip the higher level positives passives to 1 and 2 but keep the higher level negatives at 3 and 4 that way in order to have the boost all vamps would have to feed in order to keep the boosts going with out needing to add any more to the skill line as it is *walks out* but what do I know I'm just a gamer.