FInding the Bottleneck

l00s3s

Today i've been raiding in cyrodiil while fighting in a massive battle i asked around how many fps ppl have. Most of them hadn't that much... around 20-30... some had awesome fps 60+ but i had 6- what was the reason i asked.

Whats strange about that is that i can get my fps to 80 in clear areas.
I am currently playing with low graphics settings most time PvP also having view dist turned down to 0. Most time im getting 30-40fps and in big battles i drop down to 10-. Often i died because of this low fps.

And I began to ask myself is my comp really that bad? After searching around the Internet i found out it should definitely be able to run the game much better.
Actually I currently have:
MB: ASRock 990fx Fatal1ty Pro
RAM: 16gb at 1600mhz
CPU: FX81-50 @‌ 4200mhz
GPU: XFX 6970 HD @ 900mhz
My OS (win7 SP1) is installed on an SSD 128gb.
I am running ESO from another HDD (7200rpm) 2TB both are using SATA2

And today I began to search for my bottleneck to fix it.
So i began to monitor everything. First strange thing i discovered was that even in these big battles where I drop down that much in fps my GPU was constantly sticking below 45% usage. Even my CPU overall usage was always below 30%.

My next idea was that maybe ESO was lazy loading something.

So I fired up resmon to check disk I/O's also these were nearly idling so i can be sure that its not the disks causing the bad fps.

Also ESO is not leaking memory its constantly using 1GBto 1.2GB in memory. Also my RAM usage is most times at 6GB or below. (currently at 5.42GB with all monitoring programs up).

After some more monitoring I discovered that my core #7 is used for most processing (#7 was most times at 60-80%usage while other where sticking at 20-30%) so I did more research on the internet and indeed found out that thread-scheduling on windows 7 is very bad if you use a FX-processor. So i did download 2 Patches which should fix it. Also before today i had my processor running on 3.6ghz standard clock and overclocked it today to run at 4.2ghz.

Also i discovered a tool to disable CPU core parking which is a power saving technique and disabled it completely.While talking about power saving some people reported big improvements after disabling power save modes (setting windows settings to balanced or higher). I have also done this.

Also i did approach some software caused problems. While playing i always close the launcher because every time it pings/gets updates it can cause bis frame freezes or microlags. Also I always close firefox because i have many tabs/tabgroups open which get updated within firefox which also can cause microlags because of disk usage. Also i close all programs that have overlays.

And of course all my drivers are up to date...

With these approaches, changes, tweaks and updates i was able to get aprox 5-10~ more fps than this morning. But it still doesn't feel "fixed" while playing. I still drop down to 15- fps while in big battles. And still my GPU nor CPU nor anything else i am able to monitor reaches its full usage.

So although i did find out very much to improve performance i am still asking myself where is the bottleneck?

D34thly

I was having the very same issues with similar system. I had a copy of windows 8 I used along time ago and disliked it due to metro now there are programs to make it use windows 7 menus. It's called Classic Shell. Anyways when I was using windows 7 with all the hotfixes I was getting 30-40fps ultra everywhere around 10fps in pvp. When I switched to windows 8 I know get 60-75 fps outside on ultra with low reflections I can't really notice a difference and 80-100 inside. around 35 fps in very large battles and 60-70 roaming around outside in Cyrodiil. I was amazed at the difference. If you happen to have windows 8 lying around give it a try.

AMD 8350
Asus Sabertooth 990FX
8Gigs @‌ 1866
AMD 280x x2 crossfire (disabled for eso)
Formally windows 7 now windows 8.1 pro

Audigy

Try to install the windows 7 AMD patch, windows 8 doesn't suffer under that problem which might explain why our friend above improved his FPS with it

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2645594/en-us

If it doesn't help, get back to us

l00s3s

thx for reply read about that also. seems like thread scheduling is indeed the problem im gonna give it a try tomorrow since i am looking for a reason to reinstall windows for quiet a while now (also i discovered today that i still have not enabled AHCI mode on my sata controller ) and report back then

l00s3s

@Audigy as described above i already installed the thread scheduling hotfix for win 7 but win 8 is still doing it a bit different and also more effecient
To be accuarte I installed 2 hotfixes 1st KB2645594-x64 2nd KB2646060-v3-x64

l00s3s

Ok i am now using win 8.1 pro and just got into cyrodiil and again at big battles my framerate drops extremly. Although my usage at core 0 is now a bit higher and fps might increased 1-2fps.

So it looks like that indeed the game engine is causing the problems because of its poor multithreading optimization. (You can now clearly see core0 at 90-95% usage while the other are nearly idling.)

But that would acutally be kind of strange. Because it seem slike some people do not experience this huge fps drop. As I mentioned above in my first post sometime there are people reporting ~60-80fps where I now get max 15.

So although all the tests and approaches I tried to fix it it still seems like its the engine's fault but strangely there are some people who dont seem to suffer from that problem.

wrlifeboil

l00s3s wrote: »

Ok i am now using win 8.1 pro and just got into cyrodiil and again at big battles my framerate drops extremly. Although my usage at core 0 is now a bit higher and fps might increased 1-2fps.

So it looks like that indeed the game engine is causing the problems because of its poor multithreading optimization. (You can now clearly see core0 at 90-95% usage while the other are nearly idling.)

But that would acutally be kind of strange. Because it seem slike some people do not experience this huge fps drop. As I mentioned above in my first post sometime there are people reporting ~60-80fps where I now get max 15.

So although all the tests and approaches I tried to fix it it still seems like its the engine's fault but strangely there are some people who dont seem to suffer from that problem.

This has been known since early access. It affects AMD cpus more than Intel cpus. Just keep praying that they get around to optimizing the code.

l00s3s

Just found another interesting thing. I tried running ESO with a RequestedNumThreads setting set to 8 instead of -1. Now my CPU load is more equally split up and core0 does not reach its max load at any time as before but still i am at my 15fps

Whats also very interesting about the screenshot. As i was looking at the most players there is a drop of CPU usage noticeable at core0 and spikes at core1 and 2 as i was looking at less players more of core0 is used.

I still think thats very counterintuitive behauvior.

Audigy

l00s3s wrote: »

Ok i am now using win 8.1 pro and just got into cyrodiil and again at big battles my framerate drops extremly. Although my usage at core 0 is now a bit higher and fps might increased 1-2fps.

So it looks like that indeed the game engine is causing the problems because of its poor multithreading optimization. (You can now clearly see core0 at 90-95% usage while the other are nearly idling.)

But that would acutally be kind of strange. Because it seem slike some people do not experience this huge fps drop. As I mentioned above in my first post sometime there are people reporting ~60-80fps where I now get max 15.

So although all the tests and approaches I tried to fix it it still seems like its the engine's fault but strangely there are some people who dont seem to suffer from that problem.

The reasons why some have less problems (I honestly think nobody plays with a steady 60-80FPS on Ultra in PVP right now) could be.

1. CPU single core performance (Intel is a lot stronger than AMD and object´s such as players are all rendered on one core - I believe that's a hero engine default or something)
2. Overclocked CPU (works on both actually - but requires a bit knowledge and some good cooling. It can be done nicely on AMD Bulldozer and any Intel with an open multiplication such as the k series)
3. They play on much lower settings (low shadows, low particles, low view distance)

The problem we currently have with ESO is that the rendered object´s per frame, are quite high in PVP. We have all the players, several spells, the environment, sunlight etc. You should also notice this in towns with a lot going on, especially at night with all the lights turned on.

Our CPU´s need to tell our GPU that it has to render all these object´s, but as slower the CPU as less "orders" can be sent out.

We really need that rendering done on more cores, it would help a lot.


The screenshot shows us a better core usage indeed (my German is quite ok ), but I somehow think that the rendering is still on a single thread on one core.

Saerydoth

Audigy wrote: »

l00s3s wrote: »

Ok i am now using win 8.1 pro and just got into cyrodiil and again at big battles my framerate drops extremly. Although my usage at core 0 is now a bit higher and fps might increased 1-2fps.

So it looks like that indeed the game engine is causing the problems because of its poor multithreading optimization. (You can now clearly see core0 at 90-95% usage while the other are nearly idling.)

But that would acutally be kind of strange. Because it seem slike some people do not experience this huge fps drop. As I mentioned above in my first post sometime there are people reporting ~60-80fps where I now get max 15.

So although all the tests and approaches I tried to fix it it still seems like its the engine's fault but strangely there are some people who dont seem to suffer from that problem.

The reasons why some have less problems (I honestly think nobody plays with a steady 60-80FPS on Ultra in PVP right now) could be.

1. CPU single core performance (Intel is a lot stronger than AMD and object´s such as players are all rendered on one core - I believe that's a hero engine default or something)
2. Overclocked CPU (works on both actually - but requires a bit knowledge and some good cooling. It can be done nicely on AMD Bulldozer and any Intel with an open multiplication such as the k series)
3. They play on much lower settings (low shadows, low particles, low view distance)

The problem we currently have with ESO is that the rendered object´s per frame, are quite high in PVP. We have all the players, several spells, the environment, sunlight etc. You should also notice this in towns with a lot going on, especially at night with all the lights turned on.

Our CPU´s need to tell our GPU that it has to render all these object´s, but as slower the CPU as less "orders" can be sent out.

We really need that rendering done on more cores, it would help a lot.


The screenshot shows us a better core usage indeed (my German is quite ok ), but I somehow think that the rendering is still on a single thread on one core.

You're correct except for the Hero Engine part. This game does NOT use Hero Engine.

wrlifeboil

If i7's are having problems, it's the game.

Amsel_McKay

When people leave my group or people are added to my group I notice a 20-40fps drop (I can reproduce this every time). I run 60-70fps no matter how massive the battle on max settings... but group changes really lag me.

Audigy

Saerydoth wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

l00s3s wrote: »

Ok i am now using win 8.1 pro and just got into cyrodiil and again at big battles my framerate drops extremly. Although my usage at core 0 is now a bit higher and fps might increased 1-2fps.

So it looks like that indeed the game engine is causing the problems because of its poor multithreading optimization. (You can now clearly see core0 at 90-95% usage while the other are nearly idling.)

But that would acutally be kind of strange. Because it seem slike some people do not experience this huge fps drop. As I mentioned above in my first post sometime there are people reporting ~60-80fps where I now get max 15.

So although all the tests and approaches I tried to fix it it still seems like its the engine's fault but strangely there are some people who dont seem to suffer from that problem.

The reasons why some have less problems (I honestly think nobody plays with a steady 60-80FPS on Ultra in PVP right now) could be.

1. CPU single core performance (Intel is a lot stronger than AMD and object´s such as players are all rendered on one core - I believe that's a hero engine default or something)
2. Overclocked CPU (works on both actually - but requires a bit knowledge and some good cooling. It can be done nicely on AMD Bulldozer and any Intel with an open multiplication such as the k series)
3. They play on much lower settings (low shadows, low particles, low view distance)

The problem we currently have with ESO is that the rendered object´s per frame, are quite high in PVP. We have all the players, several spells, the environment, sunlight etc. You should also notice this in towns with a lot going on, especially at night with all the lights turned on.

Our CPU´s need to tell our GPU that it has to render all these object´s, but as slower the CPU as less "orders" can be sent out.

We really need that rendering done on more cores, it would help a lot.


The screenshot shows us a better core usage indeed (my German is quite ok ), but I somehow think that the rendering is still on a single thread on one core.

You're correct except for the Hero Engine part. This game does NOT use Hero Engine.

Oh sorry, did I mix something up?

Saerydoth

Audigy wrote: »

Saerydoth wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

l00s3s wrote: »

Ok i am now using win 8.1 pro and just got into cyrodiil and again at big battles my framerate drops extremly. Although my usage at core 0 is now a bit higher and fps might increased 1-2fps.

So it looks like that indeed the game engine is causing the problems because of its poor multithreading optimization. (You can now clearly see core0 at 90-95% usage while the other are nearly idling.)

But that would acutally be kind of strange. Because it seem slike some people do not experience this huge fps drop. As I mentioned above in my first post sometime there are people reporting ~60-80fps where I now get max 15.

So although all the tests and approaches I tried to fix it it still seems like its the engine's fault but strangely there are some people who dont seem to suffer from that problem.

The reasons why some have less problems (I honestly think nobody plays with a steady 60-80FPS on Ultra in PVP right now) could be.

1. CPU single core performance (Intel is a lot stronger than AMD and object´s such as players are all rendered on one core - I believe that's a hero engine default or something)
2. Overclocked CPU (works on both actually - but requires a bit knowledge and some good cooling. It can be done nicely on AMD Bulldozer and any Intel with an open multiplication such as the k series)
3. They play on much lower settings (low shadows, low particles, low view distance)

The problem we currently have with ESO is that the rendered object´s per frame, are quite high in PVP. We have all the players, several spells, the environment, sunlight etc. You should also notice this in towns with a lot going on, especially at night with all the lights turned on.

Our CPU´s need to tell our GPU that it has to render all these object´s, but as slower the CPU as less "orders" can be sent out.

We really need that rendering done on more cores, it would help a lot.


The screenshot shows us a better core usage indeed (my German is quite ok ), but I somehow think that the rendering is still on a single thread on one core.

You're correct except for the Hero Engine part. This game does NOT use Hero Engine.

Oh sorry, did I mix something up?

A lot of people were confused by this, so I'll explain what happened. Zenimax Online Studios was founded in 2007 for the purpose of creating ESO. At this point, they were a brand new company and had no technology of their own. They wanted artists to be able to start getting designs done so they could start to get a "feel" for what the zones would look like, but they couldn't due to lack of a graphics engine. The programmers had started one, but it was still a couple years away from even being in the testing phase.

So ZOS licensed Hero Engine. They handed it over to the art dept and had them start using it to prototype areas. This way the artists weren't twiddling their thumbs waiting for the programmers to get a working engine to them. They continued to use it until the custom engine was ready, at which point they switched their work over to the actual ESO engine.

The final game does not use Hero Engine in any way. But it is shown in some of the game credits, because it WAS used in early development (as I stated above). But the final engine does not use any code from Hero Engine, it's completely custom. I've heard about 100 people say in-game "There's no way this is using Hero Engine, if it were it would choke with 5 players on screen, and it doesn't". This is why.

Audigy

Thanks for the explanation

l00s3s

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

I run 60-70fps no matter how massive the battle on max settings...

This is what I meant that there must be something else causing this fps problems. As there are always a few people who do not suffer from fps drops in big battles. Especially because the ones who are dropping are dropping really heavy. Im am actually dropping down from 84 to 13fps.

@Amsel_McKay
It would be interesting to know on what system are you running ESO with such high fps ?

Amsel_McKay

l00s3s wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

I run 60-70fps no matter how massive the battle on max settings...

This is what I meant that there must be something else causing this fps problems. As there are always a few people who do not suffer from fps drops in big battles. Especially because the ones who are dropping are dropping really heavy. Im am actually dropping down from 84 to 13fps.

@Amsel_McKay
It would be interesting to know on what system are you running ESO with such high fps ?

Intel Core i7-4960X Ivy Bridge-E
ASUS P9X79 WS LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA
G.SKILL Ripjaws Z Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 PC19200
Intel 320 Series 600GB SATA II SSD x 2 in RAID 0
EVGA GeForce GTX 780 Ti Superclocked 3GB 384-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 SLI x2 in Sli
Creative Sound Blaster ZXR
Windows 8.1 Professional 64-bit

sociald100ub17_ESO

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Intel Core i7-4960X Ivy Bridge-E
ASUS P9X79 WS LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA
G.SKILL Ripjaws Z Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 PC19200
Intel 320 Series 600GB SATA II SSD x 2 in RAID 0
EVGA GeForce GTX 780 Ti Superclocked 3GB 384-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 SLI x2 in Sli
Creative Sound Blaster ZXR
Windows 8.1 Professional 64-bit

64gb of ram? and 2x 780ti... So either you do professional video rendering or you have more money than you know what to do with.

l00s3s

Well its actually really sad that you need such a system to play ESO without heavy framedrops i hope this threading issue is addresed in the future soon.

mikescchen

Yeah I admire ZOE's ambition to write the code from scratch, but I'd really like to see they improve the code efficiency.

Amsel_McKay

sociald100ub17_ESO wrote: »

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

Intel Core i7-4960X Ivy Bridge-E
ASUS P9X79 WS LGA 2011 Intel X79 SATA
G.SKILL Ripjaws Z Series 64GB (8 x 8GB) DDR3 PC19200
Intel 320 Series 600GB SATA II SSD x 2 in RAID 0
EVGA GeForce GTX 780 Ti Superclocked 3GB 384-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 SLI x2 in Sli
Creative Sound Blaster ZXR
Windows 8.1 Professional 64-bit

64gb of ram? and 2x 780ti... So either you do professional video rendering or you have more money than you know what to do with.

Yes I work in video production, but this is my gaming rig... I love the top of the computers for gaming, sometimes its a little over board but when I hand the computer off to my kids in a year it will still be a good computer for them.