Yes..I will compare this to WoW because..

daxg32_ESO

I love ESO so far and have since beta, but honestly the inventory, guild store, crafting system needs work. The crafting over all is good and fun but specifically there needs to be some fixes that keep you from having to run all over and compare this to that without needing a simple addon. So I'm out in the woods killing bandits with a buddy, and he wants to know if I can make boots with divines trait. Hmm..I can't remember and I have to go to a crafting station to find out. In WoW you can just click on your crafting and pull up your skill. You didn't have to be in front of an anvil. When you are in the deconstruct tab, you can't compare the item to what you have equipped. You have to actually back out into your inventory, look at your equipped gear then go back into crafting mode. This isn't a big deal but still annoying.
I'm not done. The guild store is not a valid substitute for an auction house. You are limited, period. First of all in chat all you see is people just saying, looking for a merchant guild, etc and thats the only reason. 99% of guilds are forming for this alone, not to join up and do dungeons or meet people, but in the hopes of finding and selling things, the more members the better. I have joined 5 guilds, all with over 500 members and I don't care who they are, I just hope I can find stuff I need from them.
Tonight I needed a lvl 36 shield with infused trait, and I was of course limited to my 5 guild stores. A few came close, but of course nothing. So my options are to spam trade for someone to make it, or join guild after guild and look in their stores for one. This game is more fun than WoW but the single auction house is way better. Also, please, please fix the sorting ability in the guild stores. You cannot search for items well enough, for example materials. If I want to look at just ore, or cloth, or honing stones, forget about it. You have to search through all materials, page after page of stuff. You can only sort by price.
Look there's a junk tab, I will put all of this stuff I want to sell in the guild store in here to keep it separate. Nope, doesn't work. When you sell in the guild store you can't sort by armor, junk, mats, etc you just have one long list so there goes that idea. That tab does no good.

Lupinemw

There is a UI addon that allows you to do this.

AI Research Grid.

But they may change the game so it does this later. The question is did WoW do that from the start as this game is only 6 weeks live.

Tizerak

I am sick to death of that weak counter argument to comparing things to WoW: "Did WoW have X at launch?" WoW is a 10 year old game, unless any MMO developer has been hiding under a rock WoW has, like it's predecessor EverQuest before it, created "staples" of the MMO genre that other MMO's have followed as standards for a successful game.

Also for those that use that argument for end-game content WoW had a PvP rank/reward system AND PvE raids (Onyxia/Molten Core) at launch.

And yes I love this game and continue to play it, but I will play devil's advocate.

Chirru

Tizerak wrote: »

I am sick to death of that weak counter argument to comparing things to WoW: "Did WoW have X at launch?" WoW is a 10 year old game, unless any MMO developer has been hiding under a rock WoW has, like it's predecessor EverQuest before it, created "staples" of the MMO genre that other MMO's have followed as standards for a successful game.

Also for those that use that argument for end-game content WoW had a PvP rank/reward system AND PvE raids (Onyxia/Molten Core) at launch.

And yes I love this game and continue to play it, but I will play devil's advocate.

with more than 7 million players still playing WoW after 10 years they must have gotten something right. Right now I do not foresee ESO lasting that long...
at the present way ESO will quickly falter as soon as something even remotely more promising will come onto the market.

There is no daub whatever...that if Blizzard brings an improved Version of WoW onto the market almost EVERY ONE will run to it with lightning speed.

For ESO to be a success the Developers will need to give up the stubborn and single minded attitude that ESO can succeed doing things GREATLY different than the MOST SUCCESSFUL MMO ever being on the market.

Either game developers cater for what the majority of players like, or they will be stuck with the minority of players who will eventually get bored of the game and leave anyhow....the MMO graveyard is full of attempts to do things somehow different than what has been established by older MMO's over decades.

There are successful MMO ventures and failures. Look at what is successful and DON'T care about the opinion of a minority who want an MMO- ES ...it will not work. ESO is an MMO and not a single player game and as an MMO it MUST have the features the majority of MMO players are accustomed too. Else the game will fail.

Avidus

Tizerak wrote: »

s have followed as standards for a successful game.

Also for those that use that argument for end-game content WoW had a PvP rank/reward system AND PvE raids (Onyxia/Molten Core) at launch.

The PvP was either world pvp, which was terrible or WSG, which was terrible, the pvp ranks were based off how many point you had compared to others, which meant all you had to do was group up and stand near the fights to get max pvp rank.
BETA WoW, a paladin could solo onyxia, not much of a raid if you ask me.
And did anybody ever find Mankriks wife?

I could go on about just how unbalanced, terribly planned out and unfinished it was when it launched, I could also recap the worst decisions they made along their production up to now when it has become literally the udder of a cash cow.

In comparison ESO's crafting is far far superior.
Just because you need things to tell you what you can and cant do doesn't mean its bad.
I can certainly remember the traits I have researched.

Auction houses are the cancer of economy, they create a one stop shop for everything, all you need to do is have the gold waiting, how to make money using an AH is easy, you just buy all of a particular product and sell it at your price.
Its just a way of granting players instant gratification, without having to give it half a thought.
The guild store system has worked amazingly well for me. I can make a massive profit in a very small amount of time, ive had members of the guild contact me after I purchased there items and through that I now have contacts in which I trade specific items with. You get to know the community through their trade.
One example is that I have a contact who does not care for raw crafting materials, and sells insignificant amounts of it for borderline vendor prices.
Through discovering them by the guild store, I now pay them slightly higher amounts than they would normally make, and in return the sell only to me.

However I do agree with the guild store search function, it needs a little touching up, but that does not in anyway phase me.

KiMiSi

WoW is the most successful mmo so of course it will be compared against that, anything else would be strange...

I do not understand all of you who question if a 10 year old game had “this and that” at release… What’s that got to do with anything? A game release 10 years later should not have the same problem/flaws as a game released 10 years ago…

After so many years with mmo’s on the market it should not be that hard for game designers to see the basics of making a successful game, what has worked and not worked in earlier games.
Design, economy, content, character customization, professions etc…
The economy in this game is close to a disaster and the guild store a really bad solution with an even worse design/functionality. I’m amazed they managed to mess it up that bad and still think it would work.

Avidus

KiMiSi wrote: »

WoW is the most successful mmo so of course it will be compared against that, anything else would be strange...

I do not understand all of you who question if a 10 year old game had “this and that” at release… What’s that got to do with anything? A game release 10 years later should not have the same problem/flaws as a game released 10 years ago…

After so many years with mmo’s on the market it should not be that hard for game designers to see the basics of making a successful game, what has worked and not worked in earlier games.
Design, economy, content, character customization, professions etc…
The economy in this game is close to a disaster and the guild store a really bad solution with an even worse design/functionality. I’m amazed they managed to mess it up that bad and still think it would work.

So then we should create WoW 2.0, which is exactly the same as wow with a different skin?
That is what you just suggested.

KiMiSi

Avidus wrote: »

So then we should create WoW 2.0, which is exactly the same as wow with a different skin?
That is what you just suggested.

So you are saying that WoW is the only mmo with succesful features..?

Seriously… I did not say make everything like WoW. I said that WoW is the most succesful mmo that has been made so it is not strange people compare to that.

AlexDougherty

KiMiSi wrote: »

WoW is the most successful mmo so of course it will be compared against that, anything else would be strange...

I do not understand all of you who question if a 10 year old game had “this and that” at release… What’s that got to do with anything? A game release 10 years later should not have the same problem/flaws as a game released 10 years ago…

Because otherwise you are comparing a game with ten years of bug removal with a game of six weeks. It's like asking a boxer straight out of school to go ten rounds with the world heavyweight champion of the world. Picture that for a minute.

If people are going to compare a new MMO with WoW, then do so on fair terms. Yes this game is buggy, but so was WoW at Launch, so was Swtor, so was SWG, so was FFXIV, and so add infinitum.

I'm not actually defending this game, because it has too many bugs, but at least give ZOS a chance to fix the bugs, don't compare a game just getting on it's feet, with one with tens years of polish.

And if you do, be prepared for people to tear you to shreds for obvious reasons.

Syntse

Avidus wrote: »

So then we should create WoW 2.0, which is exactly the same as wow with a different skin?
That is what you just suggested.

Exactly what was in my mind. People want WoW with TES skin unfortunately.

KiMiSi

This is not about bugs, bugs are annoying but they are just bugs and will be fixed eventually.
My concern was about how the game is designed.
For example the economy part. The guild stores aren’t bugs, the game is designed this way. Same with professions, they are not bugged. But the ability to keep track of professions and recipes etc is a mess but it is not bugged ^^ It's just bad.

Edit: I haven’t even said anything about even liking WoW so I don’t understand why people think I want this game to be like WoW..?
Seriously, all I said was that WoW is the most known and successful mmo and because of that most people will compare ANY new mmo against that.

AlexDougherty

Syntse wrote: »

Exactly what was in my mind. People want WoW with TES skin unfortunately.

God no, I don't want to play WOW, or SWG, or SWTOR. Some of these I've played, some I just don't want to, for a variety of reasons.

Why can't these people (not @Syntse or @Avidus who were critiqueing) just let a game have it's own style

Hessen

People want certain parts of MMOs they've enjoyed (often WoW) that they liked, but more of it, and in a different upgraded graphics and sound package.

Chirru

Avidus wrote: »

KiMiSi wrote: »

WoW is the most successful mmo so of course it will be compared against that, anything else would be strange...

I do not understand all of you who question if a 10 year old game had “this and that” at release… What’s that got to do with anything? A game release 10 years later should not have the same problem/flaws as a game released 10 years ago…

After so many years with mmo’s on the market it should not be that hard for game designers to see the basics of making a successful game, what has worked and not worked in earlier games.
Design, economy, content, character customization, professions etc…
The economy in this game is close to a disaster and the guild store a really bad solution with an even worse design/functionality. I’m amazed they managed to mess it up that bad and still think it would work.

So then we should create WoW 2.0, which is exactly the same as wow with a different skin?
That is what you just suggested.

No, not WoW 2... just taking the best things of WoW..the things that actually work and are liked by the majority of players... and doing the same by looking at other MMO's and take what worked there.

Look, it is no rocket-science to find out what the majority of players like and implement it. Trying to reinvent the wheel is what ESO at the moment attempts to do. It does not work! ESO is an MMO and NOT ES-Single Player. Sorry... the things working in a single player game do NOT work in an MMO...I hope we all can agree on this.

Example... the initial idea that if people are grouped but are at different stages in a quest they end up in a different instance despite being still grouped, IS A DISASTER! One casual look at other games running instancing would have made this clear as the clearest sky on a sunny day in the Sahara. Who by all stars comes up with such nonsense things?

The ESO developing team however came up with dozens of such insane bull eye hits. Having all class-skills based on the same magicka cookie-cutter scheme is another such example... want me to go on? Yes, the lack of an auction house or market is on the list. Forcing MMO players to complete single player Solo Boss Missions?

What is this? IT IS AN MMO? NO, it is ES...NO, it is an MMO... no, it is neither nor... the game is a *** (in the original meaning of the word) ... yes, I get excited here... Stop the crap, make changes and get an MMO into the beautiful landscape. Look what made other MMO's successful and copy it. Look what had other MMO's fail and avoid it. Is this so difficult?

I want ESO to succeed...but that will only happen if players stay... and right now they are already leaving... Why? Because ESO is the best game ever? Think about it.

Sabbatus

There is no daub whatever...that if Blizzard brings an improved Version of WoW onto the market almost EVERY ONE will run to it with lightning speed.

Laughable, and untrue.

When I was playing Blizzard's starter MMO, they had over 11 million players. The moment there was a better, less cartoonish game that wasn't as much of a "loot pinata" as WoW, I left - along with nearly 5 million other players who couldn't stand the dumbing down of that game.

In my best Han Solo voice, "Don't believe everything you think, kid."

Jeremy

daxg32_ESO wrote: »

I love ESO so far and have since beta, but honestly the inventory, guild store, crafting system needs work. The crafting over all is good and fun but specifically there needs to be some fixes that keep you from having to run all over and compare this to that without needing a simple addon. So I'm out in the woods killing bandits with a buddy, and he wants to know if I can make boots with divines trait. Hmm..I can't remember and I have to go to a crafting station to find out. In WoW you can just click on your crafting and pull up your skill. You didn't have to be in front of an anvil. When you are in the deconstruct tab, you can't compare the item to what you have equipped. You have to actually back out into your inventory, look at your equipped gear then go back into crafting mode. This isn't a big deal but still annoying.
I'm not done. The guild store is not a valid substitute for an auction house. You are limited, period. First of all in chat all you see is people just saying, looking for a merchant guild, etc and thats the only reason. 99% of guilds are forming for this alone, not to join up and do dungeons or meet people, but in the hopes of finding and selling things, the more members the better. I have joined 5 guilds, all with over 500 members and I don't care who they are, I just hope I can find stuff I need from them.
Tonight I needed a lvl 36 shield with infused trait, and I was of course limited to my 5 guild stores. A few came close, but of course nothing. So my options are to spam trade for someone to make it, or join guild after guild and look in their stores for one. This game is more fun than WoW but the single auction house is way better. Also, please, please fix the sorting ability in the guild stores. You cannot search for items well enough, for example materials. If I want to look at just ore, or cloth, or honing stones, forget about it. You have to search through all materials, page after page of stuff. You can only sort by price.
Look there's a junk tab, I will put all of this stuff I want to sell in the guild store in here to keep it separate. Nope, doesn't work. When you sell in the guild store you can't sort by armor, junk, mats, etc you just have one long list so there goes that idea. That tab does no good.

Back when I played WoW the crafting was terrible. There were no traits you could add. The only customization that came into play was by adding gems - which amounted to small differences in stats and nothing I found particular interesting. Otherwise it was just a bland selection of pre-set pieces. So unless it has changed since I last played - I find the crafting options on this game vastly superior to that game.

I agree with you entirely on your second point though. The guild stores are definitely not a valid substitute for an auction house. The selection, interface... just the system in general is cumbersome, aggravating, and barely useful. I don't care for it at all and would prefer an auction house.

Rainingblood

There are definitely some "quality of life" aspects that this game can seriously use in terms of guild design and player economy. But regarding the "AH", I think that if (hopefully "when") ZOS makes the Cyrodiil Guild Stores as they originally said, which will open guild sales to players outside the guild, then it will make a huge step forward and would stand out as different than a normal AH. This along with a more intuitive store UI, search functions, etc., will help things immensely, IMO.

Regarding crafting, I agree. While I like certain aspects, there are some QOL functions that could really make it a more enjoyable experience overall. Hopefully there will be some tweaks and additions of more customization coming soon. Nothing on PTS yet though...

Enderman_Slayer

The biggest thing is that this is Elder Scrolls and an MMO. The game will have time to work out the bugs and quirks that are out there. People keep having this stigma with WoW because that is what they expect from an MMO. Yes it is successful and there is a reason for that but it has sat at the top for so long but no one knows what else can be done with an MMO and they expect nothing more and nothing less. Elder Scrolls is a very popular game series and ESO is already a good game and still has a lot of room to grow. This game is obviously not "as is" and will make many changes that could bring more people into the game. I can't see this game being a flop because of the popularity backing the name. I get my expectation of what I wanted from any Elder Scrolls game fulfilled with ESO. I would like to see a better trading system implemented in the game and I believe it will happen because of discussions like this. Bots are being handled by GM's constantly and I think that is awesome.

Food4Thought

An interesting discussion about WoW and ESO ...

You want my two cents worth ...

There should have been a global AH. The guild AH is more intended for selling items on the cheap to guild members. The high taxes for its use make this all but pointless for selling high dollar items for high dollar value. You would have more luck selling items on the forums or spaming chat if you want a return on anything close to market value for said item(s).

As to why it didn't make it in game ... your guess is as good as mine and probably has left most of the MMO player base scratching their heads.

As to comparing ESO and WoW ... I can recall when people were comparing WoW to SWG and EVE. And why? Because the crafting had a point in those games and WoW's crafting was well pointless. It was a money sink. You could make high end gear that was only as good as the next dungeon upgrade then it became vendor trash. It was the entry level gear you got to get you through the entry level PVP, which helped you get the entry level dungeon sets. Crafted epics had a market of about 20 seconds in WoW. As soon as people beat a dungeon you couldn't give the stuff away.

But yet people still craft and play WoW.

Does WoW have more features? Yes. But how many times in 10 years can you run the same quests and dungeons or pvp before you simply say you have enough.

Is WoW stable? Yes, but I remember the release all those years ago. It was UGLY. How ugly was it? So ugly I cancelled my subscription after two months kinda of ugly and only went back after the performance reviews drastically improved about 4 months after release. I simply refused to pay a subscription on a game that was still BETA in performance.

ESO may have had its bumps, but a week after release I can play the game without game killing issues. Quests that were broken in BETA may still be broken but at least there are work arounds for most.

My crafting has a point and that point is remade every two levels. Hell, this is the first game I have played since SWG that my character is in full crafted gear (except for jewelry of course). In every other game I have played I had a mix.

Food4Thought

Every game has its strengths and its weaknesses.

Where do I think ESO went right?

The crafting from a bank stored item.
Variable upgrades for mounts.
Choices beyond measure for skill point alocation.
Beautiful game world and voice acting.
Fast travel to group or world location without a timer limitation.
Open mail anywhere at any time.

Where do I think ESO went wrong?

Need a world AH.
Player housing (I only bring this up as it is a staple in the single player games)
Allowed broken main quests upon release (should have been a priority to fix during beta)
PVP combat options and not just mass battles that turn into lag fests.

And that is it.

But things we like in games don't necessary work well. Why hasn't another game allowed for player housing and modification of player housing like SWG did? Because it was a nightmare. The same reason nobody does harvesting like SWG did too. It was cool to look for high harvest areas and to plant your harvester. But if you were late getting to the party, you came up empty handed because other players took the area over with their harvesters leaving you with no room for your own.

And don't get me started on trying to do a quest in SWG only to find that your quest area was taken over by a player town. Kind of hard to kill X number of critters when the critter spawn sites are now home for the town's shuttle bay or rows of storage buildings.

Yeah .. those were the days.

But it wasn't like devs haven't attempted to make games that at least met SWG and EVE half way with the importance of crafting. I can recall AOC allowing guilds to make forts and towns in PVP zones. But the down side is you risked it all in PVP combat and rebuilding was a pain. I recall Light and Dark allowing PVP in player forts only during certain hours and if you forgot to login you could find your whole place raised to the ground and somebody else's standing on your ashes.

My point is some features just don't work in a MMO. Even for people who play the game nonstop sooner or later you get caught with your pants down and you lose it all. And if you are a casual player with little time to rebuild, losing everything is a game killer for you. So when EVE players had a massive battle early this year and destroyed over $200k in ships in real world money, how many of those players came out in near heart attacks? Some things simply aren't intended for the massive player base that represents the bulk of MMO players. Far to many are casual and the loss of even one titan would have represented the culmination of 10 years worth of work. When you lose things like that in game you tend not to return. So why put something in the game that would lead to friction within your player base and cause you to lose money? The answer for games like ESO is you don't. And that is why you don't have many things that some people consider important.