Struggling with why NB is bad in VR

Guppet

Im in VR content, im VR2 now. I keep expecting to suddenly find my playstyle completely useless, as that's all I here on these forums.

Im a dual wield nightblade (the traditional thief assassin kind), I wear 7/7 medium armour, I have my stats all roughly balanced, except health regen, that's very low, my sta and magic regen are both near the cap, health, magic and sta are in the 1600's.

I keep seeing that this should not be viable. It all seems to focus on us being rubbish at AOE for large packs.

If I have Soul tether up, I can teleport in with Ambush hit my ultimate and mow large packs of mobs down, with steel tornados.

Groups of one or 2 are obviously laughable, the 1st is dead before it even gets chance to react, leaving me with a one on one, which as a dual wield NB, im made to dominate. Packs of 3 I use mark target (from my 2nd action bar no less, as it stays on the target, even if I switch back to my other action bar) on my 2nd kill target, meaning I get a huge heal after killing the 2nd one, so im pretty much on equal ground with my 3rd target.

If there are large packs and I don't have my ultimate, I avoid them, as an assassin would do. I have that 7/7 medium so my stealth is pretty good.

If for any reason, I have to go past them directly, but don't want to fight them. I do what only a NB can do, I enter stealth and when it looks like I cant approach any closer without being detected, I chain together Shadow Cloaks. With that I have true invisibility and can walk right through the middle of that pack of mobs and wont aggro a single one, avoiding them completely.

So I don't see why not being the best at AOEing down large packs of mobs, is such a huge negative. We have the best tools to avoid them completely, so we don't need to AOE them down.

My skill use is surly pretty standard. I have Ambush, Blinding Flurry (which is responsible for more of my deaths than any bugged class skill), Blood Craze, Funnel Health (morphed that way, so its useful if im ever a healer) and Killers blade (Switched with Steel tornado for large packs) my Ultimate is Soul Harvest for small groups and Soul Tether for large groups.

Am I missing something here?, am I just being very very lucky?, do I play to the classes strengths more than other players, that don't think to avoid packs? (you gain most of your vet xp from the quest hand ins, not mobs, so you no longer need to kill everything)?

Do other people not know that you can use Shadow cloak, while already in stealth, to completely avoid aggroing packs, you don't want to fight?

I get that archer does not seem to work in VR content, but the typical assassin dual wield rogue, thief type, its seems to work just fine for me.

Gisgo

No Ember explosion, no Circle of protection, no Flying blade?

The first 3 veteran ranks were shocking for me then i got used to the game being harder.
Dont worry too much.

Guppet

Gisgo wrote: »

No Ember explosion, no Circle of protection, no Flying blade?

Nope, none of those, im not even a vampire. Im clearly an abomination!!

Gisgo

Im not a vampire either, that has nothing to do with the skills i mentioned
For pve drop ambush and killer blade and load ember explosion and... something else (its situational).

Guppet

Gisgo wrote: »

Im not a vampire either, that has nothing to do with the skills i mentioned

I know you didn't mention it, im just pointing out even further that a lot of what people assume you have to have to be a viable NB, is not necessarily true, if you think about how to play.

It just seems that every topic about decent night blades, seemed to have the spec as a vampire lol.

Guppet

Gisgo wrote: »

For pve drop ambush and killer blade and load ember explosion and... something else (its situational).

That's just it, why would I need to do that? Im not struggling at all in PVE with a standard dual wield build (the playstlye that I most enjoy). You can AOE down packs, or you can completely avoid them, I choose the latter.

Gisgo

You can avoid most of the packs.
On the road to VR10 from time to time you will have to turn yourself into a tank just to progress.
I just suggested those two skills because they are an easy fix for every assassin struggling into their VR levels.

Guppet

Gisgo wrote: »

You can avoid most of the packs.
On the road to VR10 from time to time you will have to turn yourself into a tank just to progress.
I just suggested those two skills because they are an easy fix for every assassin struggling into their VR levels.

From time to time, that's fine.

These here forums, would have you believe that traditional dual wield playstyle for NB, can't hack VR content at all.

It's making me think that the players saying that, are wanting to just charge in and AOE everything down, just like the other classes.

Are they not trying to avoid combat? Which I would have thought would have been a no brainer, for the best stealthier in the game.

Maybe they would be best playing a class that does not need to strategise.

In all most every MMO I have played, stealthers have always required a bit of thought.

Are people's expectations of what the NB should be able to do, out of sync with the design concept of what the NB specialises in?

Is that the crux of why many NB's are struggling?

Jaxom

Gisgo wrote: »

Im not a vampire either, that has nothing to do with the skills i mentioned
For pve drop ambush and killer blade and load ember explosion and... something else (its situational).

I do agree that dropping ambush is probably a good idea in PvE, I've done that myself, but without a good source of self healing, I would never drop killer blade off my bar, ever. I know Mark Target isn't the best skill, but with Reaper's Mark and Killers blade, I'm back to full health after each kill. The trick is to use mark target right before you kill the mob so you get the healing without having to deal with the self debuff for the entire fight. Once I started doing that, I found taking down packs of 3 much easier. Also, Magnum show is your best friend (and Volcanic Rune).

Liquid_Time

Yeah V content is alright so far for me. I was doing V1 at level 46 with level 44 crap armor/swords (most broken) and holding my own. Yes, if I pulled packs of 3-4 it was hard, but hey that's the best part.. If it wasn't hard or if you didn't die every so often... then wow. The people that can kill group after group with little effort will become brain dead from the grinding in a few hours.. Much like 30-50 content was. That is not how I enjoy a game.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

While doing veteran as a classic assassin dual wielder is not impossible it is not what most people rolled nightblade for. I for instance had absolutely no interest into the stealth part of the class I wanted it for the life toying gimmick. While I run a build 100% based on magicka siphons and restoration staff some who run pure stamina with a bow for exemple will have problem dealing with multiple adds especialy long range unit such as archers and mages. When you actualy go into a public dungeon like the crow nest you will start to understand why people are annoyed about the class.

Truth is are you REALY supposed to avoid those 6 target packs to begin with?... I don't think so. While the assassin design of the NB is one of the many possibility others may not see it that way and would rather run it as a warlock with a staff or a two handed sword in heavy armor sometime to better effectiveness then your build.

Doing the warlock path I can tell its a harsh one to run if you aint using a restoration staff. The moment you get a boss you cannot perma stun or start running out of health because you don't have a decent heal what will you do... im curious to know.

Im not saying assassin is bad however it lacks... versatility. You are strong only at taking down one to 3 target at best and the moment you are fighting a boss or a particularly hard encounter you will dearly pay the price for behing squishy and limited in your survivability. Sure you can stealth and stun mob one by one... until you run out of magicka or get hit to often between your strikes.

Guppet

My 2nd action bar is with a resto staff, I rarely use it though, but for those mobs that give me trouble, I can quick switch and heal myself. I have 3 heals and my invis and mark target on that bar. I also switch to that bar when handing in quests, as I need to level up my heals.

The thing is, as im not full stam or full magica, I don't ever run out of resources, being balanced can keep you using abilities much longer.

Yankee

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

While doing veteran as a classic assassin dual wielder is not impossible it is not what most people rolled nightblade for.

That is what I rolled a Nightblade for. Otherwise I play on my Sorcerer.

I play the NB very close to how the OP does, and enjoy it for the steatlh/burst playstyle. It is actually more fun to run solo on the NB than other characters for me. With racial and medium armor stealth passives maxed, the playstyle is a little risky and quite fun. Nothing like solo stealthing deep into a group dungeon to get the skyshard, just because. Cloak is awsome.

It is not the best for large mob packs sure, but that is build choice.

In a group is when I enjoy the Sorc more.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

Until vet 2 I never actualy even bothered to use stealth. Im about rank 10 in assassination 35 in shadow and 50 in siphoning with 50 in restoration staff 50 in light armor 35 in heavy armor 0 in medium armor 10 vampirism. My crit chance with non magical attack currently is 0 and I got no bonus to physical damage

Im a nightblade

Sorcerer has interesting gimmick however sorcerer thematics doesn't work very well with the principe of ''I suck your life out''

In oblivion you could play as a offensive restoration specialist running entirely on drain life effect (absorb health was considered restoration magic effect). In skyrim you ned to run vampirism to get something similar. In eso nightblade does that job and vampire complement it.

Not all healers mend wounds...

Sorcerer simply isn't the ''vampiric master'' style character at all

Vuron

@Guppet‌

I think you misunderstand most of the arguments about NB. The class is pretty easy to solo all the way through the game. It's not that they have trouble on trash mobs, or even quest mobs. Most of the complaints about lack of AoE are referring to more of end-game content. I'm not sure if you've done the VR level dungeons, yet, but you will probably see what people are talking about.

You feel sort of out of place when your tank pulls 20 mobs and you're standing there with all your single target skills on your bar trying to figure out which one to hit while the other 3 classes are blowing crap up with their AoE's.

It's not that NB's are bad, it's just that they are the least preferred DPS class for most of the end game content.

I agree with some of the posts above that soloing with a NB is fun and easy. Nothing like casting retreating maneuver and refreshing shadow cloak every 3 seconds while running through an entire delve to just kill the boss. I think there are some delves that I've finished in under a minute.

Guppet

Some of the syphon abilities are rather too bugged. If cripple worked as it says, it would be very useful. Also if leach gave back the 4% health that you glyph it for, that would be awesome too. Not to mention the aoe damage and heal not increasing the heal like it should.

Unfortunately, your playstyle is ruined not by lack of how the class should work, but by annoying as heck bugs. If those 3 bugs were all fixed, I think it would be more than viable.

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO

if they gave the damage they promised in 1.1 to dark shade youd have access to a minion master shadowmage... lovely

Ravinsild

Yeah, no, this was the same experience for me. My problem was I got bored with the one trick pony playstyle.

Mine is set up nearly identically to yours, but it was so effective that I simply got bored of the effective yet stale playstyle and moved on to some alts.

Guppet

Vuron wrote: »

@Guppet‌

I think you misunderstand most of the arguments about NB. The class is pretty easy to solo all the way through the game. It's not that they have trouble on trash mobs, or even quest mobs. Most of the complaints about lack of AoE are referring to more of end-game content. I'm not sure if you've done the VR level dungeons, yet, but you will probably see what people are talking about.

You feel sort of out of place when your tank pulls 20 mobs and you're standing there with all your single target skills on your bar trying to figure out which one to hit while the other 3 classes are blowing crap up with their AoE's.

It's not that NB's are bad, it's just that they are the least preferred DPS class for most of the end game content.

I agree with some of the posts above that soloing with a NB is fun and easy. Nothing like casting retreating maneuver and refreshing shadow cloak every 3 seconds while running through an entire delve to just kill the boss. I think there are some delves that I've finished in under a minute.

I can see how lack of AOE, would be a bit of an issue in VR10 dungeons, but most of the whining on these forums, would have you believe they can't even make it to VR10, to join those dungeons.

If fully specced for AOE, just how far behind are they? Also do they not make up for it when it comes to the boss? With better single target DPS.

I'm not sure if I will ever find that out, as I heal in dungeons.

It's not really uncommon in MMO's for the stealth based classes to thrive solo, but struggle in group content. Its kind of part and parcel.

The ability to avoid combat, is usually balanced against something. Here it's AOE. It does sound like they are doing something to help them in groups though.

Yankee

That is why I am alternating leveling a Nightblade and Sorc through VR. The builds I run make the play styles very different so as not to get bored. One is all caster and the other mostly melee.

No real hurry to get them to VR10.

Ravinsild

Just for fun, this is a direct replication of my Nightblade build that has not changed since...I don't know like level 15 (The main bar.)

The secondary bar took longer to complete because you don't get Haste and Reaper's Mark until later, however 90% of the time I don't even use it my second bar because I don't need it.

http://esohead.com/calculator/skills#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

Vuron

There is one other factor to keep in mind. A large number of the posts complaining about the class are coming from people that have progressed further than you. There is a huge difference between the Silver and Gold content.

Mob health just about doubles between where you are at VR2 and VR7. Unfortunately, our damage doesn't scale the same. There are certain points in the game where we make huge DPS jumps (getting our ult, certain levels where skills become available, level 38 when you get your last weapon skill, level 50 when you get your last passive, etc.) This progression stops in VR content because you've probably already gotten all the skills you will use. The only way to increase damage is through enchantments or slightly better weapons each level. There are no more significant jumps and your DPS won't keep up with the mob health.

At VR2, you're fighting mobs that have 1100 - 2200 health. VR7-8 mobs can run around 4400 health. This can make a huge difference in a group of 3+ mobs. Your play style of 1-shotting the first mob, and then blasting down the other 2 will no longer be viable. It will also no longer be possible to concentrate on blasting down one mob while another beats on you from behind because they will be hitting much harder. Running out of resources becomes the biggest issue at later levels. If you run out of stamina/magicka - you die. And you will need to use many, many more casts to take down mobs.

I think this is what most people are struggling with if they're having a hard time in PvE. Most NB's will need to alter or completely change their play styles from early to late VR levels.

Guppet

From VR2 to 10 I can see mobs getting harder to take down. But I'm seeing people claiming that traditional dual wield is not feasible even at VR1. I guess those are people who are just trying to face tank everything. I chose NB knowing full well, it was likely to be the class that required the most thought.

I guess I'll see how it goes and not let all the negativity from the whiners turn me off the class and style I enjoy.

If it ever gets to a stage that 3 mobs is too much, I'll do what I do with large groups currently and only engage with my ult ready, or just avoid them totally. Quite befitting of my assasin playstyle

davidetombab16_ESO

the only viable build for NB is shadow disguise spam resto staff symphoning but is pretty horrible in pvp for broken stealth mechanics

Guppet

davidetombab16_ESO wrote: »

the only viable build for NB is shadow disguise spam resto staff symphoning but is pretty horrible in pvp for broken stealth mechanics

They will fix that. I'm not sure how though. If they make shadow desguise completely reset aggro, that kills a lot of shadow builds and makes it a feign death with no cooldown. Passing mobs then would be even easier.

Trials will help a lot with balancing, I think. They will get some solid numbers and make changes based upon them.

GeeYouWhy

Guppet wrote: »

I get that archer does not seem to work in VR content, but the typical assassin dual wield rogue, thief type, its seems to work just fine for me.

It's not that the NB can't be effective, its just that it can be broken more easily than the others. As you pointed out, archery as well as other completely viable specs work just fine to 50 but fall apart in VR content. Other classes are more forgiving in their builds.

I'm a recovering archer NB. I found embracing the class skills the best way to deal with VR content and now I fear no VR mob or group of mobs.

aipex8_ESO

VR3 NB chiming in! I play mostly stamina based, dual wield and am having a blast. There are a few bugs that I hope get fixed, but I just don't get all the threads saying this play style is impossible. I play slow and stealthy like a rogue should and I have no problems.

Westcoast14_ESO

Guppet wrote: »

If there are large packs and I don't have my ultimate, I avoid them, as an assassin would do. I have that 7/7 medium so my stealth is pretty good.

If you have Lotus Fan and set it up properly, you can teleport in, AoE stun the pack (or at least most of it) and get the Sneak Attack bonus on most of them. If you use Drain Power and Steel Tornado you can AoE a large pack down pretty easily.

My mistake early on was blocking. With the snare from Lotus Fan you can stay out of the way of the melee while spamming Steel Tornado. The only other thing I did was to apply Reapers Mark to one of the mobs before hand to get a massive heal mid fight.

If you want to go in heavily buffed, you can use Mirage and Evade to boost survivability pretty high.

For small groups (3 or less) I would just assassinate them with Shadowy Disguise and uppercut. If I wanted an extra margin of safety I would put Reaper's Mark on the second mob.

So I used Two Handed for small groups and Dual Wield for Large groups. For most bosses I would just assassinate them with repeated applications Uppercut and Shadowy Disguise mixed in with basic attacks. For more difficult bosses I would switch to a Siphoning + Dual Wield build to finish them. I know that by "abusing" Dark Cloak and Restoration Staff, you can solo almost any boss.

Overall, I found NB very effective in PvE. It's also very solid for small scale and solo PvP. It seems have utility issues with group PvE as a DPS and it seems a little weak for large scale PvP.

At VR 3 I started leveling one of my alts (a Sorcerer that was nominally slated to become a crafting alt). Basically I hadn't found a playstyle for NB that appealed to me within the current mix of working abilities. NB was effective, but it wasn't providing me with the game play I was looking for (the builds I played were very safe (you almost always leave combat with full health) and they had a premeditated and methodical play style focused around a very small number of abilities).

So far Sorcerer doesn't seem as wildly OP as some posts would lead one believe. That said, Sorcerer has a lot of group utility (its ultimates are outstanding) and more than any other class, it seems to provide a wide range of game play options. NB in comparison seems amenable to a much smaller range of effective builds/playstyles. And if the playstyle of those builds doesn't appeal to you, you're of out of luck.

cbbouletb16_ESO

1) Medium armor is extremely bad.
2) Just run Sword/Shield bash build on any class in the game and you can do Veteran content easily.

gloryhammer

Guppet wrote: »

Do other people not know that you can use Shadow cloak, while already in stealth, to completely avoid aggroing packs, you don't want to fight?

I didnt know that, thanks for the good post!

CapuchinSeven

Kyubi_3002b16_ESO wrote: »

While doing veteran as a classic assassin dual wielder is not impossible it is not what most people rolled nightblade for.

er I'm pretty sure that's what most people rolled Nightblade for dude.