So, you go the Blizzard way Zeni?
Mephos
✭✭✭
Yeah, your a business, I know. And you need to listen to the community if something is wrong with your game, I get it. But see.. players don´t know what you thought when designing stuff. They just complain because they don´t get it and don´t know how to handle stuff. You should explain mechanics instead of nerfing them so that every brainless *** can play this game without thinking.
I have seen this happen in so many MMORPGS .. you don´t want to lose subs (money) so you adept the system to satisfy those people. Make it easier. Next nerf will be veteran content because people can´t play it without dying. After you nerfed veteran into oblivion you will nerf veteran dungeons. Why make it hard and challenging? People want to have brainless grind for gear. Don´t think, don´t act and especially don´t react to your environment. Don´t look for boss abillities.. just nerf them if players can´t handle it. Blizz did the same. Now look at their LFG dungeon system full of *** children complaining about people AFKing the bosses .. This system has only be changed because of player input.
Stick to your goals and make the game how you want to have it. Make a good game, a challenging one. Don´t go the same route like Blizzard did. Please.
From my point of view you are doing it wrong.
If they complain "There are to many vampires" you guys should say "Then its happy times for every vampire HUNTER -> dedicated skill lines" .. Just *** equip a silver bolt or other warrior guild skill and your good to go. If not strong enough then make it stronger. Buff warrior guild if you want to secretly nerf vamps/WW in PvP.
If they complain "We get killed by a group that AoEs us to death" .. you shouldn´t reduce the AoE cap to 6 players (GUYS! serious.. even if this is working as intended what sense makes it to focus massiv zerg gameplay over small raid groups that work together to conquer stuff), but just explain to players "you can dodge, you can block, most classes can reduce incoming dmg or avoid it" .. its a massiv multiplayer pvp environment. if you all stand on the same spot you get killed, split up .. no need to change the mechanic (except I oversee some obvious exploits there).
About the vampire skills and the nerfs. I see that some changes had to be done. But why did you overall nerf the vampire? Because it was to popular? To many people that liked to be vampire? What about players who got used to it, or payed several thousend gold to be a vampire. I mainly just play PvE .. I love the mist form .. I really loved it because I didn´t have to use my mount to travel from quest to quest.
Really, this is just me (I guess) but I really hate your mounts. The "get on the mount" and "get off the mount" animation is so *** long. I want to harvest something in the woods "get of mount" harvest "get on mount" walk 3 meter notice another node "get of mount" .. -.- .. at a certain point I just moved around with the mist form, even if its slower then a mount I just .. click button, move, harvest, click button move.. soooo much fluent gameplay, so much better .. (its the small things that count sometimes)
I know, its only my opinion but you should really trust in that what you do. Learn from what players tell you but don´t overreact to it. Vampire nerfs just feel like you wanted to show players that you hear them.. hammering vampires to the ground.. giving no love to them but just smashing their heads against the walls screaming "why did you abuse your ultimate, it was not designed for that purpose!!"
I know this one post will change nothing. Also I think it will never be read by someone who actually has something to decide. It was just on my mind that I don´t want to go with you the way that I went with Blizz.. from an awesome experience to a medicore game where just everyone can have everything.
p.s. sorry for my bad english, I tried to write it not in german so that it has a higher chance that someone would read it.
edit: (example)
from my point of view you should rather explain to a casual player what he should do, instead of making it so easy that he can do it without thinking about the game. Yeah, some prefer mindless gaming in the evening (even I do when I get back from work).. but overall a game should be a experience where you need to learn and adept.. where you overcome challenges. I remember one time a friend wrote me that he *** hates zenimax for doing a boss which heals himself constantly. He died about 200 times doing that boss solo until I explained to him that he needs to interrupt the heals with shield bash and conserve stamina for that. after that he failed several times until he learned how to time it right and after that he succeeded. No nerf, no nothing, just an explanation how to do it. the result in the end was that he was super freaked out and happy that he did it on his own. he was proud and felt good. and thats how it should be. challenge -> overcome challenge -> feel good. and not challenge -> try it once -> fail -> beg for nerfs -> nerfs come -> try again, no challenge, continue without any emotion to next problem -> try it once -> fail -> beg for nerfs
Edited by Mephos on May 6, 2014 2:16PM I have seen this happen in so many MMORPGS .. you don´t want to lose subs (money) so you adept the system to satisfy those people. Make it easier. Next nerf will be veteran content because people can´t play it without dying. After you nerfed veteran into oblivion you will nerf veteran dungeons. Why make it hard and challenging? People want to have brainless grind for gear. Don´t think, don´t act and especially don´t react to your environment. Don´t look for boss abillities.. just nerf them if players can´t handle it. Blizz did the same. Now look at their LFG dungeon system full of *** children complaining about people AFKing the bosses .. This system has only be changed because of player input.
Stick to your goals and make the game how you want to have it. Make a good game, a challenging one. Don´t go the same route like Blizzard did. Please.
From my point of view you are doing it wrong.
If they complain "There are to many vampires" you guys should say "Then its happy times for every vampire HUNTER -> dedicated skill lines" .. Just *** equip a silver bolt or other warrior guild skill and your good to go. If not strong enough then make it stronger. Buff warrior guild if you want to secretly nerf vamps/WW in PvP.
If they complain "We get killed by a group that AoEs us to death" .. you shouldn´t reduce the AoE cap to 6 players (GUYS! serious.. even if this is working as intended what sense makes it to focus massiv zerg gameplay over small raid groups that work together to conquer stuff), but just explain to players "you can dodge, you can block, most classes can reduce incoming dmg or avoid it" .. its a massiv multiplayer pvp environment. if you all stand on the same spot you get killed, split up .. no need to change the mechanic (except I oversee some obvious exploits there).
About the vampire skills and the nerfs. I see that some changes had to be done. But why did you overall nerf the vampire? Because it was to popular? To many people that liked to be vampire? What about players who got used to it, or payed several thousend gold to be a vampire. I mainly just play PvE .. I love the mist form .. I really loved it because I didn´t have to use my mount to travel from quest to quest.
Really, this is just me (I guess) but I really hate your mounts. The "get on the mount" and "get off the mount" animation is so *** long. I want to harvest something in the woods "get of mount" harvest "get on mount" walk 3 meter notice another node "get of mount" .. -.- .. at a certain point I just moved around with the mist form, even if its slower then a mount I just .. click button, move, harvest, click button move.. soooo much fluent gameplay, so much better .. (its the small things that count sometimes)
I know, its only my opinion but you should really trust in that what you do. Learn from what players tell you but don´t overreact to it. Vampire nerfs just feel like you wanted to show players that you hear them.. hammering vampires to the ground.. giving no love to them but just smashing their heads against the walls screaming "why did you abuse your ultimate, it was not designed for that purpose!!"
I know this one post will change nothing. Also I think it will never be read by someone who actually has something to decide. It was just on my mind that I don´t want to go with you the way that I went with Blizz.. from an awesome experience to a medicore game where just everyone can have everything.
p.s. sorry for my bad english, I tried to write it not in german so that it has a higher chance that someone would read it.
edit: (example)
from my point of view you should rather explain to a casual player what he should do, instead of making it so easy that he can do it without thinking about the game. Yeah, some prefer mindless gaming in the evening (even I do when I get back from work).. but overall a game should be a experience where you need to learn and adept.. where you overcome challenges. I remember one time a friend wrote me that he *** hates zenimax for doing a boss which heals himself constantly. He died about 200 times doing that boss solo until I explained to him that he needs to interrupt the heals with shield bash and conserve stamina for that. after that he failed several times until he learned how to time it right and after that he succeeded. No nerf, no nothing, just an explanation how to do it. the result in the end was that he was super freaked out and happy that he did it on his own. he was proud and felt good. and thats how it should be. challenge -> overcome challenge -> feel good. and not challenge -> try it once -> fail -> beg for nerfs -> nerfs come -> try again, no challenge, continue without any emotion to next problem -> try it once -> fail -> beg for nerfs
14
-
Sarenia✭✭✭✭✭Just as an FYI to any passersby, this is a stealth "why were vampires nerfed?!?" thread which can be summed up with the following quote:Mephos wrote:Vampire nerfs just feel like you wanted to show players that you hear them.. hammering vampires to the ground.. giving no love to them but just smashing their heads against the walls screaming "why did you abuse your ultimate, it was not designed for that purpose!!"
You're welcome for the summary. Now carry on![beta_group_85b_9]12 -
mips_winnt✭✭✭I take it from this wall of text that you're not happy that ZOS hit the vampires with the nerf bat. I'd suggest saving your outrage since I suspect they'll get nerf batted some more in the future, at which point I'm sure a lot of players will find some other FOTM to chase after, followed by complaints, followed by the nerf bat, rinse, wash, repeat.... welcome to the world of MMOs.
Happy Hunting!0 -
Shimond✭✭✭✭Is Blizzard known for actually balancing their game in PVP now? They didn't use to be.3 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, it sure would suck if ZO's game went the same way as Blizzard's. We might end up with another insanely popular MMO that stays strong for a decade.----
Murray?8 -
Azarul✭✭✭✭So instead of nerf's everything else should be buffed? whats the difference? Same outcome in the end, more balanced.0
-
Sarenia✭✭✭✭✭It's kind of disturbing that some people actually thought infinitely using an ultimate was an intended game mechanic, and are upset by it being fixed.
If you want to abuse broken mechanics, knock yourself out. Ride the high tide and enjoy the high, but don't complain when that tide crashes against the shore and you end up with sand in your bikini.Edited by Sarenia on May 6, 2014 1:51PM[beta_group_85b_9]7 -
Zakua✭✭✭While I have no experience with Vamps. I do agree with some of your concerns.
I like the challenges the game aims at me....I like getting PO'd at a Boss because he's killed me 4 times in a row...it makes me feel good when I finally whoop his bottom.
I for one do not want the game to start handing me things for little effort (dont get me wrong, there is already plenty that it hands to you). There has to be some happy medium/middle ground, maybe we are already at the happy place?
1 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Ignoring the WOW haters, fact is Blizzard usually do give a reasoned argument when nerfs like this happen .. and the common feature is to point out that continual buffs cause stat inflation, meaning it's better to nerf one clearly broken and OP class that buff all the rest.So instead of nerf's everything else should be buffed? whats the difference? Same outcome in the end, more balanced.
Of course WOW today is the result of massive stat inflation caused by expansions, which WOD is set to seriously reverse, but that's a different story.Edited by KerinKor on May 6, 2014 1:51PM1 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭
The WOW forums show a different reality.
LOL yeah the forums. I think you hit the nail straight on the head
BLIZZARD!YOU RUINED MY LIFE!UAI U NERF LOCK?!!??!?!
ah classic...2 -
mips_winnt✭✭✭fact is Blizzard usually do give a reasoned argument when nerfs like this happen ..
Based on my experience that's never been the problem with WoW PvP, Blizzard does generally have a good reason for nerfs and they do continually attempt to improve the PvP balance side of things, However they're stuck because PvE is such a big component of WoW, so they have a rather difficult juggling act of balancing PvP while not breaking PvE and vice versa.
IMHO They do a pretty good job of it given the situation but you have to admit that the current WoW BG's are pretty much a big CC fest most of the time (Arenas are somewhat better).
0 -
Spryt✭✭Only game Blizzard can balance is Starcraft.
But wasnt vamp mostly "fixed" not nerfed? And if that uppset you you better leave now beacuse they will nerf (balance) all classes and skills. And you may not like all changes.0 -
Mephos✭✭✭Actually even if I´m a vampire I don´t care that much for the nerfes. Never used the skills in PvP anyway. It was just as an example. For me it was important to point out that developers should listen to the community, but never overreact and nerf the *** out of stuff. Instead buff other stuff or just look at the source of the problem.0
-
Ri_Dariit✭✭✭...Instead buff other stuff...
This one remembers @ZOS_MattFiror's comment talking about "Flavor of the month". Khajiit assumes "vamp nerf" was only for fixing pesky bug, but not normal route of equalizing combat.Fusozay Var VarJaji kor nirni. Ri'Dariit ahnurr shir Gouranga an vasa rid-t'har.0 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They nerf content in the hope that it will be more accessible to players, because Casuals are having a hard time staying in groups as soon Elitist´s are in charge of the kick button. We saw a few thread´s already where someone was kicked or insulted due being a Casual with less skill or a different idea of playing.
Every company thinks that if they make things easier, the Elitist´s will accept Casuals more, but the truth is as more content is nerfed as more the Elitist´s will demand.
We all know the achievement checks at wow where players must show a boss kill, or a specific gearscore even though its not required based on Blizzards dungeon design.
ZO is only trying to help and they don't seem to have a different answer than making things easier in the hope that those Elitist´s step down from their high horse and tolerate less skilled players. Sadly in reality this doesn't work, as Elitist´s will increase their demands even further.
What ZO should do is keep content hard, but take the power away from Elitst´s so that Casuals are protected from the harassment that comes from those. Question is, how to do that?2 -
mutharex✭✭✭✭✭Yeah didn't they FIX vamp related bugs? hardly a nerf if now is (almost) working as intended0
-
Mephos✭✭✭from my point of view you should rather explain to a casual player what he should do, instead of making it so easy that he can do it without thinking about the game. Yeah, some prefer mindless gaming in the evening (even I do when I get back from work).. but overall a game should be a experience where you need to learn and adept.. where you overcome challenges. I remember one time a friend wrote me that he *** hates zenimax for doing a boss which heals himself constantly. He died about 200 times doing that boss solo until I explained to him that he needs to interrupt the heals with shield bash and conserve stamina for that. after that he failed several times until he learned how to time it right and after that he succeeded. No nerf, no nothing, just an explanation how to do it. the result in the end was that he was super freaked out and happy that he did it on his own. he was proud and felt good. and thats how it should be. challenge -> overcome challenge -> feel good. and not challenge -> try it once -> fail -> beg for nerfs -> nerfs come -> try again, no challenge, continue without any emotion to next problem -> try it once -> fail -> beg for nerfs0
-
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Not sure why you chose to reference the casuals-vs-elitist-jerk wars in the context of this nerf/fix/whatever.What ZO should do is keep content hard, but take the power away from Elitst´s so that Casuals are protected from the harassment that comes from those. Question is, how to do that?
For a start casual is a meaningless term, or more accurately has a thousand meanings depending on which 'side' you're arguing and what your agenda is.
In your case you seem to equate 'casual' with 'less skillful', given that you're raising this issue in connection with a clearly needed power nerf and implicitly implying it was the 'casuals' that were demanding it.
Many 'casuals' are just as skilled and often more so that raiders but don't have the time to play 24/7 to deck themselves out in purples or better, so the elitists use Gearscore as a way to deride them whereas as the raid grunts .. who make up 75% or so of raids in my experience are accepted.
0 -
Smogg✭✭The OP is spot on, and it does not sound like a plea to undo the latest patch, but rather to stick with the vision around the game rather than caving into agressive cries for nerfs on the message boards.
Fact is it's a new game. All content and mechanics are aligned with what Zenimax want the game to be. Personally I love this stage of a game.
The difficult part is to apply adjustments and new content. To do this right Zenimax must:
1. Have creative designers who can keep getting good ideas
2. Listen to player feedback
3. Give players a chance to work out the mechanic and solutions first
4. Ensure that any adjustment or new content is true to the original vison as opposed to just being a "nessesary fix" based on messageboard rage.
Now the vampire nerf is in place, and I will not advocate another quick fix for better or worse, but I think that patch is a great example of what not to do. This is what went wrong:
1. There was no creative process around this fix, and the change did not improve the game in any way.
2. They listened to player feedback. But unfortunatly not enough to pinpoint what exactly they needed to change and what they wanted to achive.
3. Players were beginning to learn to deal with the batspamming. Few days before the patch, many groups avoided clustering up instinctly. Not enough time was given here.
4. The change did not serve the original vision around vampires. Vampires are supposed to have serious drawbacks but be quite powerfull as well. This change is counter to the original vision around vampires. A thing they could have done instead would have been to improve on fighter guild abilities to deal with vampires. - keeping vamps dangerous, but offering solid countermeassures.
Finally I don't think it is the intend of pvp battles that 20-40 players bundle up within a single 5m circle when fighting pvp battles. No matter if vampire bat-spam was broken or not, it was one the few countermeassures against that kind of tactic. With the limit on number of targets with AoE spells, I hope Zenimax will at least consider what kind of PVP battles they would like to see in the future and then start to align their changes towards that direction instead of just implementing panic fixes when it gets a bit hot on the message boards.
It's a great game. I love ESO, please keep it special.3 -
Mephos✭✭✭I really hope they keep ESO like it was meant to be played and not how they think that players will like it in the most ways. If you try to do it right for everyone, you will satisfy no one in the end. Its like cooking. If you want to cook one meal that suits everyone you will fail (except Döner which was a god given miracle by the turkey people) ..0
-
KariTR✭✭✭✭✭instead of making it so easy that he can do it without thinking about the game
And yet you cry for your old mist form back to take the strain out of harvesting. Oh my (and LOL).
0 -
Catches_the_Sun✭✭✭✭✭I can't believe anybody actually defends the Vampire mechanics that were being abused in Cyrodiil. I'll use the terms so many of you have been using the past 3 weeks....Learn to Play & Deal with It.Catches-the-Sun - Argonian Templar - Master Smith, Provisioner, Chemist & Tailor
Valaren Arobone - Dunmer Flamewalker - Master Woodworker, Provisioner, Assassin
Kazahad - Khajiiti Arcane Archer - Master Thief
V'orkten - Redguard Swordmaster
Finnvardr the Frenzied - Werewolf Berzerker0 -
frwinters_ESO✭✭✭✭I like everything you put here. The only other MMO i played that did not cater to people who wanted things easy that I have played in the last year is The Secret World. Its not popular BECAUSE you have to think.
But when it comes to some suggestions or complaints people out out there, I trust Zenimax to know what they need to change and what they do not need to change. The Vampire issue was a problem. It was a well documented and proven problem with the balancing of that skill line. You will always see balancing done with all classes. What looks god on paper doesn't always look good in practice when you go from a small team of developers to millions of people all trying new things and doing stuff in game the developers didn't see nor anticipate. I have faith they will not always cater to everyone and will know what to listen to and what not to listen too.
Bottom line as well....you can never please everyone.0
