Why people will take vampire over werewolf. Always.

Crescent

Go into a public dungeon. Turn on any leech or self heal from your class. Bring Resto staff for a bonus and put on mutagen/rapid regen.

Go into a pack or two of the mobs and turn on devouring swarm. Spam your aoe in between.

Get damage reduction when near 50% health.

Werewolf will NEVER have the survival of a vamp, and at best it may surpass with single target autoattack, but it will never have the AoE since it has no aoe skills. And AoE is pretty critical in all formats of this game considering the hardest crap is not the bosses themselves but the million hard hitting adds said bosses summon or the trash mobs in between.

So here's what a werewolf will not have under its current design:

- No health drains, no aoe health drains, no aoe damage.

- No real damage reduction, since they are unable to access armor/spell resist skills and don't get damage reduction on top of armor as their health gets low.

- The skill is a garbage ultimate. You can reduce the cost down to 200 for all I care, it would still mean you wouldn't have it up all the times you might need it. Vampires get all the powerful benefits without a cooldown, and the drawbacks of being a vampire is laughable as most are negated via easily acquired fire resist or just rolling a Dunmer.

In order to match werewolf to what a vampire is, you would have to make it such a powerful cooldown, that it would break pvp when it is used and people would cry to hell until it is nerfed again.

Nobody will ever take a skill that replaces their TWO flexible skill bars for a single skill bar made up of TWO niche skills, with no aoe and no self healing and no damage reduction and only an aoe fear that spreads mobs out of the melee range you need to do damage.

Oh, and the weak passives outside the stamina increase. More situational passives that don't have constant uptime, and are not accessible in humanoid form.

peter.harkessnrb18_ESO

Option 3: Neither

The_Sadist

The solution for a werewolf is simple.

Basically buff the werewolf passives so they have an impact on an individual when not transformed and potentially change a few passives around (including the ultimate). I do believe that werewolves should remain stamina focused and whatnot and should have a minimal AoE spells. You're a werewolf, you excel in single target burst damage. It wouldn't make sense for a werewolf get a spell which drains the life out of enemies from a distance, the option would be to make it so when you consume a corpse health is granted as well as extra werewolf time or some other similar solution.
Vampires do excel at AoE damage and their passives are lovely.. the werewolf is in dire need of a buff but I don't think they should become vampire clones.

In short! Passive changes and ultimate fixing with a focus on single target stamina burst.. Because what sort of mindless animal sits down and plays with magic :P?

Brittany_Joy

I don't disagree with anything you posted. Just from the werewolf design alone it will always be inferior to the vampires which is why the werewolves need a revamp badly.

Crescent

The_Sadist wrote: »

The solution for a werewolf is simple.

Basically buff the werewolf passives so they have an impact on an individual when not transformed and potentially change a few passives around (including the ultimate). I do believe that werewolves should remain stamina focused and whatnot and should have a minimal AoE spells. You're a werewolf, you excel in single target burst damage. It wouldn't make sense for a werewolf get a spell which drains the life out of enemies from a distance, the option would be to make it so when you consume a corpse health is granted as well as extra werewolf time or some other similar solution.
Vampires do excel at AoE damage and their passives are lovely.. the werewolf is in dire need of a buff but I don't think they should become vampire clones.

In short! Passive changes and ultimate fixing with a focus on single target stamina burst.. Because what sort of mindless animal sits down and plays with magic :P?

Healing on mob death is redundant, because in veteran ranks you can easily die before you kill a mob, and in the case of boss level mobs even on the overworld you'll die before the healing arrives.


This is why vampire healing is so good, because they can drain health from mobs, and that health scales to the amount of mobs around. Devouring Swarm is simply that powerful, and coupled with Undeath for damage reduction at low health even more so.

Being able to actively replenish your health while doing damage is far superior to doing no DPS whatsoever while devouring a dead mob you had to wait a while to kill while a pack of mobs is slaughtering you.

Because in veteran ranks even capped in armor, mobs will tear you apart if you have no good active self healing.

The current strongest solo pve classes happen to be templar and DK precisely because they're the classes who can heal for large amounts on demand while having powerful AoE damage. And when you pair that with the vampire line it becomes even more powerful.

AoE is king in this game. Single target matters for a few dungeon bosses, but there are even bosses where adds are summoned so the majority of the game is geared toward AoE capability and good single target damage won't hold you up. Just ask DW Nightblades how well strong single target is going on for them.

The_Sadist

So basically you want the werewolf to be a copy paste of the vampire or nerf the vampire ultimate so it doesn't life steal because it's taking away from the werewolf skill line by making it less desirable?

Um, no.

AoE might be 'king' in this game but that doesn't mean every spell should be AoE by default. I can understand wanting to buff the werewolf line as it's pretty lacklustre in it's current state, but I don't think what you want to happen will actually happen.

You're a werewolf, a killing machine, a single target burst damage dealer. Odds are you won't get an AoE self heal spell or whatever it is you want. If you feel so strongly about this perhaps just bite the bullet and go vampire.

dodgehopper_ESO

I really dont see why the wild werewolf claw swings do not do two hander type splash damage. To me that is obvious.

Crescent

The_Sadist wrote: »

So basically you want the werewolf to be a copy paste of the vampire or nerf the vampire ultimate so it doesn't life steal because it's taking away from the werewolf skill line by making it less desirable?

Um, no.

AoE might be 'king' in this game but that doesn't mean every spell should be AoE by default. I can understand wanting to buff the werewolf line as it's pretty lacklustre in it's current state, but I don't think what you want to happen will actually happen.

You're a werewolf, a killing machine, a single target burst damage dealer. Odds are you won't get an AoE self heal spell or whatever it is you want. If you feel so strongly about this perhaps just bite the bullet and go vampire.

Nope. If you don't have AoE in this game, you're worthless. No amount of single target burst will make up for the reality of encounter design.

And the encounter/dungeon design in this game is not geared for single target specialized builds.

Gisgo

WWs arent bad in theory: how many are slotting a poison skill on their bar?
But then of course, reality hits.

The_Sadist

Crescent wrote: »

The_Sadist wrote: »

So basically you want the werewolf to be a copy paste of the vampire or nerf the vampire ultimate so it doesn't life steal because it's taking away from the werewolf skill line by making it less desirable?

Um, no.

AoE might be 'king' in this game but that doesn't mean every spell should be AoE by default. I can understand wanting to buff the werewolf line as it's pretty lacklustre in it's current state, but I don't think what you want to happen will actually happen.

You're a werewolf, a killing machine, a single target burst damage dealer. Odds are you won't get an AoE self heal spell or whatever it is you want. If you feel so strongly about this perhaps just bite the bullet and go vampire.

Nope. If you don't have AoE in this game, you're worthless. No amount of single target burst will make up for the reality of encounter design.

And the encounter/dungeon design in this game is not geared for single target specialized builds.

Well sucks to be all the vet rank 1-10 NB in my guild who disagree with you. If you're so iffy about not having an AoE ultimate like a vampire, go vampire. The two world skills are designed to be different, not carbon copies of each other.

*Shrugs* well it's best you don't go werewolf if that's the case, my werewolf friends feel they need a buff but haven't mentioned a life drain ultimate. A change in how werewolf works, sure, but they went werewolf knowing they were bursty single target damage dealers.

Crescent

The_Sadist wrote: »

Crescent wrote: »

The_Sadist wrote: »

So basically you want the werewolf to be a copy paste of the vampire or nerf the vampire ultimate so it doesn't life steal because it's taking away from the werewolf skill line by making it less desirable?

Um, no.

AoE might be 'king' in this game but that doesn't mean every spell should be AoE by default. I can understand wanting to buff the werewolf line as it's pretty lacklustre in it's current state, but I don't think what you want to happen will actually happen.

You're a werewolf, a killing machine, a single target burst damage dealer. Odds are you won't get an AoE self heal spell or whatever it is you want. If you feel so strongly about this perhaps just bite the bullet and go vampire.

Nope. If you don't have AoE in this game, you're worthless. No amount of single target burst will make up for the reality of encounter design.

And the encounter/dungeon design in this game is not geared for single target specialized builds.

Well sucks to be all the vet rank 1-10 NB in my guild who disagree with you. If you're so iffy about not having an AoE ultimate like a vampire, go vampire. The two world skills are designed to be different, not carbon copies of each other.

*Shrugs* well it's best you don't go werewolf if that's the case, my werewolf friends feel they need a buff but haven't mentioned a life drain ultimate. A change in how werewolf works, sure, but they went werewolf knowing they were bursty single target damage dealers.

NB's have plenty of AoE and make some of the best healers as well. NB is not restricted to single target damage, and quite frankly you sound like a vamp apologist to me so I'm gonna stop replying by this point.

The_Sadist

Crescent wrote: »

The_Sadist wrote: »

Crescent wrote: »

The_Sadist wrote: »

So basically you want the werewolf to be a copy paste of the vampire or nerf the vampire ultimate so it doesn't life steal because it's taking away from the werewolf skill line by making it less desirable?

Um, no.

AoE might be 'king' in this game but that doesn't mean every spell should be AoE by default. I can understand wanting to buff the werewolf line as it's pretty lacklustre in it's current state, but I don't think what you want to happen will actually happen.

You're a werewolf, a killing machine, a single target burst damage dealer. Odds are you won't get an AoE self heal spell or whatever it is you want. If you feel so strongly about this perhaps just bite the bullet and go vampire.

Nope. If you don't have AoE in this game, you're worthless. No amount of single target burst will make up for the reality of encounter design.

And the encounter/dungeon design in this game is not geared for single target specialized builds.

Well sucks to be all the vet rank 1-10 NB in my guild who disagree with you. If you're so iffy about not having an AoE ultimate like a vampire, go vampire. The two world skills are designed to be different, not carbon copies of each other.

*Shrugs* well it's best you don't go werewolf if that's the case, my werewolf friends feel they need a buff but haven't mentioned a life drain ultimate. A change in how werewolf works, sure, but they went werewolf knowing they were bursty single target damage dealers.

NB's have plenty of AoE and make some of the best healers as well. NB is not restricted to single target damage, and quite frankly you sound like a vamp apologist to me so I'm gonna stop replying by this point.

I actually have a werewolf, vampire and normal character(s), thank you very much. There's no need to get snarky over a counterargument.. I'm forming logical rebuttals here! I'm in the process of levelling a NB and I've found, comparatively to other classes, they lack some serious AoE spells. Furthermore any class can make decent healers, so I wouldn't use that as an argument for AoE spells.

So spell it out for me, what do you want a werewolf to have? An AoE life steal ultimate? Well, I think that's fine but be a little realistic, it's probably not going to happen. Like I keep saying, buff the passives, potentially make the werewolf spells have some sort of differing ability in human form, change the ultimate (go go toggle) and suddenly they're half decent. Do they lack AoE? Sure. But if you want a werewolf with a vampire-like abilities.. go vampire, it seems pretty simple to me. Apples and oranges, they are two different diseases/gifts/curses (depending on your stance / lore). I know a lot of people who are going werewolf and are waiting for their inevitable buff.

So feel free not to respond, save us both the headache.

Bhakura

Yes rework the werewolf please, so they can solo 100+ players in cyrodill aswell.

No thank you, one gamebreaking skilline is enough dont need another.

The_Sadist

Bhakura wrote: »

Yes rework the werewolf please, so they can solo 100+ players in cyrodill aswell.

No thank you, one gamebreaking skilline is enough dont need another.

Helpful and insightful! Well done.

Upcoming vampire nerfs should prevent this 100+ hyperbole you're sprouting, but hey, let's forget about that.

Werewolves do need a buff, that much is obvious.

Sakiri

Id just like to catch it without paying 20k.

Manofmisery

Gisgo wrote: »

WWs arent bad in theory: how many are slotting a poison skill on their bar?
But then of course, reality hits.

Only every bow user in eso.