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VR Dungeon loot System needs improvement (BoP untradeable loot is very poor design)

Axer
Axer
✭✭✭✭
Alright so I've a massive, probably too high amount of VR dungeon runs under my belt now. (Somewhere in the 75+ range)

And what do I have to show for it?
1 nice sword (Burning Brand)
-Not a single usable piece of armor or jewelry.

Why?
Everything I want dropped. A ton. To my party members. Who don't want it, and will never want it - they vendor or destroy it because it is Bind on Pickup.

Bind on pickup itself - Good. It encourages us to get into the dungeons rather then just grinding gold ot buy them off others.
Bind on pickup without the ability to trade to your party members? NO.
NO.
No.
Tons of mmos tried this, no one ever liked it. It always got changed. In 2014, it plain shouldn't happen.

It devastatingly frustrating, especially in a set of dungeons where the loot table from 1 boss consists of some ~35+ possible items or random loot.
(7x3 types of armor = 21. 3x5 3 piece sets for each weapon set = 15. + generally 1-2 random unbound pieces that suck = 37.

Each with a droprate in the 1-5% tops. Do you know the odds on that? I don't, but i know it's bad enough that I may never see my full 5 piece set, let alone 7.

Please allow us to trade between party members.
(Simple prompt upon looting with a Warning box that says:
"WARNING: This item will bind on acquire. Are you sure you wish to pick it up? You may instead trade it with your party members before doing so, review the items stats carefully".
(And disable auto loot for boss corpses which can drop BoP items.)

Then a simply dropdown arrow by the item, or a rightclick can let you select a party members name to re-assign it to.

(Implementing a /roll d100 command would also be wise, so if say the healer gets a high damage sword, and there are 3 players which could benefit from it, they can roll to decide a fair way who gets it). (and sadly addons can't do that, since they can't print to party chat).

Related issue:

All/Nearly all VR dungeon named loot is bugged. They lack traits, rendering many pieces inferior to plain old random loot. Includes the set bonus pieces and most jewelry.
Additionally the set bonus pieces don't even have enchantments, though that may of been a good choice to allow us to enchant them ourselves..
Though given the rarity of these - STRONG base enchantments + the ability to change them would be appropriate.
Edited by Axer on April 28, 2014 8:17AM
Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • doggie
    doggie
    ✭✭✭
    I only do dungeons in pugs, what's cool with the bop system in veteran modes is that players show the loot they get, that way you can see what drops. In 10-49 dungeons few ever show any loot because it can be traded and they would rather sell or destroy instead of give away(if anyone asks if they can have it).

    Since the BOP's still can be destroyed and reward materials many will simply pretend they don't anything and go destroy the items.

    75 VR dungeons and no usable loot sounds extreme, I've got 4 epic items so far and 3 of them I plan to use.

    During my 100 runs in normal dungeons not once did I ever get a blue item from a random team member or offered one.

    That's just from my perspective as a pug runner.
    Edited by doggie on April 28, 2014 9:11AM
  • Axer
    Axer
    ✭✭✭✭
    Well, actually my party members need not show me their loot.

    That's what addons are for.

    Dragon loot shows you everyones loot. I keep a close eye on it, and we very rarely ever get an appropriate drop on an appropriate role/build.

    So people can pretend all they want. I'll know.

    And yea congrats on the insanely good loot luck.. But yea, that's not normal. The chances of the proper stuff drooping is insanely low.

    Also I didn't experience much difference in non VR dungeons in terms of my party members attitudes. I generally had good pug luck and people were generally pretty cool. I often asked for items I could use, and in most cases people either gave me them free, or sold me them for a low price.

    Attitude never changes. Only the game mechanics which govern peoples attitudes.
    Edited by Axer on April 28, 2014 9:13AM
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Axer
    Axer
    ✭✭✭✭
    Yea ran another 15+ tonight.

    Watched all 4 members loot. So many BoP items getting destroyed. Very annoying. The ebon set pieces I wanted, dropped for others like 4 times.. For me? None. All destroyed. Argh.

    Please fix this.

    (and please reply with your thoughts if you agree/disagree - everyone i've asked on every dungeon run agrees so far)
    Edited by Axer on April 29, 2014 8:11AM
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Axer
    Axer
    ✭✭✭✭
    40+ tier 2 dungeon completions now.

    0 ebon set pieces.
    (Dozens for others in my group who didn't want them).

    Not fun.
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Kl3mzyy
    Kl3mzyy
    ✭✭
    I wanted to write same topic, but you already did it.
    I am currently doing 30 runs per day, sometimes even more depends when my team got burned out and after more then 2 and half weeks of runing same dungens i got my first set of armor... like wtf.
    They must change the system that bound item are shareable within party. I hope this will got fixed before trials, otherwise people gona rage about it.
  • doggie
    doggie
    ✭✭✭
    Then it would be better to introduce the need/greed system for the BOP's, becuase the loot is currently balanced around solo loot. There would be far too many epics dropping if we could share at the current total droprate.

    If they nerf droprate and allow players within the team to share items for a limited time then it would leave me to having to "beg" for items from other random players and it's not something I would enjoy atleast.
  • kristiannyman88b16_ESO
    Absolutely agree that something needs to be done about the drops.

    I've done about 40+ runs in the T2 dungeons now.
    I've seen plenty of interesting drops, the problem is that it's almost always the wrong person who finds it. I tend to get all light armor set items when I want the Heavy and Medium. The healer or magicka dps almost always get the Heavy armor etc.

    Droprate is fine and I want things to be BoP aswell but please make it possible to allow another groupmember to loot instead of yourself.
  • gdodd_ESO
    gdodd_ESO
    Spent about 8 hours grinding Elden Hollow today, about 20 minutes or less per run. Didn't get a single set piece. Unbelievable.
  • Axer
    Axer
    ✭✭✭✭
    doggie wrote: »
    Then it would be better to introduce the need/greed system for the BOP's, becuase the loot is currently balanced around solo loot. There would be far too many epics dropping if we could share at the current total droprate.

    Heavily disagree. The drop rates are insanely low as is. Even with trading it will NOT be an easy task to complete a set.

    And aside from that, the power level of the sets versus crafted is barely higher, thus they shouldn't really be THAT hard to get, given crafting is fairly easy (And crafted stuff is BoE, so it can be easily gotten from someone else who leveled it).

    Also I addressed the need/greed issue on the bottom of my post. A /roll d100 command would result in exactly the same result as such a system, only be more idiot proof as the loot would still automatically go to all players, just they could decide after wards.

    A timed need/green system like in Neverwinter is worse for many reasons:
    - People may have to afk at a bad time, missing an oppertunity.
    - People often make mistakes. Misclicks will happen.
    - Jerk puggers will need on everything.
    - There will be bugs. EG: Loot system doesnt detect you in party correctly, no roll. Or: everyone passes - item is destroyed. Or person who won roll DC'd before roll completed, item was destroyed. Seen all of these in multiple mmos. Not a good system.

    Neverwinter actaully allowed you to trade BoP items - to party members anytime before exiting the dugeon. That is also a good system they could use in addition or instead of my trade-in-corpse confirmation box. (Tho the confirmation warnign should apply either way).
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Crimson
    Crimson
    I think I have done Wayrest Darkshade and Elden Hollow all together about 40 times and I have only gotten the same weapons over and over again and the rarer loot on stuff like the worm cultist set when I am a heavy armor user... Then the caster friends I run with end up getting the ebon heart full set...

    should be better to have a group loot system at least for dungeons that way we at least get people gear that they need instead of having useless stuff I can't possibly use clogging up my inventory...

    that is my rant with the system x_x so sick of getting caster loot I need tank stuff... have not gotten 1 in 40 runs its depressing...
  • Artis
    Artis
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just imagine that things you wanted didn't drop at all.
  • Crimson
    Crimson
    Artemis wrote: »
    Just imagine that things you wanted didn't drop at all.
    would be more better then hearing how no one has need for the gear and just deconstructs...

  • Wifeaggro13
    Wifeaggro13
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Axer wrote: »
    Alright so I've a massive, probably too high amount of VR dungeon runs under my belt now. (Somewhere in the 75+ range)

    And what do I have to show for it?
    1 nice sword (Burning Brand)
    -Not a single usable piece of armor or jewelry.

    Why?
    Everything I want dropped. A ton. To my party members. Who don't want it, and will never want it - they vendor or destroy it because it is Bind on Pickup.

    Bind on pickup itself - Good. It encourages us to get into the dungeons rather then just grinding gold ot buy them off others.
    Bind on pickup without the ability to trade to your party members? NO.
    NO.
    No.
    Tons of mmos tried this, no one ever liked it. It always got changed. In 2014, it plain shouldn't happen.

    It devastatingly frustrating, especially in a set of dungeons where the loot table from 1 boss consists of some ~35+ possible items or random loot.
    (7x3 types of armor = 21. 3x5 3 piece sets for each weapon set = 15. + generally 1-2 random unbound pieces that suck = 37.

    Each with a droprate in the 1-5% tops. Do you know the odds on that? I don't, but i know it's bad enough that I may never see my full 5 piece set, let alone 7.

    Please allow us to trade between party members.
    (Simple prompt upon looting with a Warning box that says:
    "WARNING: This item will bind on acquire. Are you sure you wish to pick it up? You may instead trade it with your party members before doing so, review the items stats carefully".
    (And disable auto loot for boss corpses which can drop BoP items.)

    Then a simply dropdown arrow by the item, or a rightclick can let you select a party members name to re-assign it to.

    (Implementing a /roll d100 command would also be wise, so if say the healer gets a high damage sword, and there are 3 players which could benefit from it, they can roll to decide a fair way who gets it). (and sadly addons can't do that, since they can't print to party chat).

    Related issue:

    All/Nearly all VR dungeon named loot is bugged. They lack traits, rendering many pieces inferior to plain old random loot. Includes the set bonus pieces and most jewelry.
    Additionally the set bonus pieces don't even have enchantments, though that may of been a good choice to allow us to enchant them ourselves..
    Though given the rarity of these - STRONG base enchantments + the ability to change them would be appropriate.
    Itemization is completely broken in Vr dungeons Completely .chests dropping original loot . Blue drops being worthless you can get better greens in world content or publics.
  • barreradb14_ESO
    barreradb14_ESO
    Soul Shriven
    Axer wrote: »
    Alright so I've a massive, probably too high amount of VR dungeon runs under my belt now. (Somewhere in the 75+ range)

    And what do I have to show for it?
    1 nice sword (Burning Brand)
    -Not a single usable piece of armor or jewelry.

    Why?
    Everything I want dropped. A ton. To my party members. Who don't want it, and will never want it - they vendor or destroy it because it is Bind on Pickup.

    Bind on pickup itself - Good. It encourages us to get into the dungeons rather then just grinding gold ot buy them off others.
    Bind on pickup without the ability to trade to your party members? NO.
    NO.
    No.
    Tons of mmos tried this, no one ever liked it. It always got changed. In 2014, it plain shouldn't happen.

    It devastatingly frustrating, especially in a set of dungeons where the loot table from 1 boss consists of some ~35+ possible items or random loot.
    (7x3 types of armor = 21. 3x5 3 piece sets for each weapon set = 15. + generally 1-2 random unbound pieces that suck = 37.

    Each with a droprate in the 1-5% tops. Do you know the odds on that? I don't, but i know it's bad enough that I may never see my full 5 piece set, let alone 7.

    Please allow us to trade between party members.
    (Simple prompt upon looting with a Warning box that says:
    "WARNING: This item will bind on acquire. Are you sure you wish to pick it up? You may instead trade it with your party members before doing so, review the items stats carefully".
    (And disable auto loot for boss corpses which can drop BoP items.)

    Then a simply dropdown arrow by the item, or a rightclick can let you select a party members name to re-assign it to.

    (Implementing a /roll d100 command would also be wise, so if say the healer gets a high damage sword, and there are 3 players which could benefit from it, they can roll to decide a fair way who gets it). (and sadly addons can't do that, since they can't print to party chat).

    Related issue:

    All/Nearly all VR dungeon named loot is bugged. They lack traits, rendering many pieces inferior to plain old random loot. Includes the set bonus pieces and most jewelry.
    Additionally the set bonus pieces don't even have enchantments, though that may of been a good choice to allow us to enchant them ourselves..
    Though given the rarity of these - STRONG base enchantments + the ability to change them would be appropriate.

    Can't agree more. The current system is so unnecessary tedious I'm starting to wonder if it's purposely done to delay gearing till more content is ready. Regardless, endless dungeon runs in the hopes that the gear you want 1) drops at all (the drop rates are insanely low) and 2) drops specifically for you is not my, nor I suspect anyone's, definition of fun.

    In addition, it CANNOT be that hard to add the proper traits and enchantments onto the gear. Here's hoping it makes it into one of the upcoming patches and that it's retroactive.
  • e.gamemarkb14_ESO
    e.gamemarkb14_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    I posted suggestions on how to really improve this in another thread, but will post the part on this issue here.

    If they would implement an "intelligent" loot system, that would really help solve these issues. What is an intelligent loot system?

    A system that reviews the player's gear when they enter the dungeon and then assigns an appropriate loot table that will have far more choices to offer a piece of gear the player may actually use / want after defeating each boss.

    I know this system can and does work as I have seen it implemented in RIFT and I think they added something like this in WoW at some point when I was working for them.

    I know a lot of players who have run regular dungeons and Vet dungeons, in which after defeating a boss they got no loot (as in, they get a random white or green item + shard).

    Players want to feel like their time spent was worth while, and defeating harder bosses in veteran content should guarantee something nice, such as a guaranteed blue or chance at purple from an intelligent loot system.

    This would go a long way in making a happier player base, as having choices = good, while having no choices = sadness and frustration which can cause players to leave the game, especially when their experience is the later most of the time.
  • Axer
    Axer
    ✭✭✭✭
    Imo a "smart" system would be a bit too easy. And rather innacurate in a game where classes aren't well defined as in other games such as warcraft.

    And also could be very frusterating in a game of this style.

    For example you could fully level a skill line, and decide its garbage, yet just leave it hanging with lots of points in it isnce the respec cost is high, and there are plenty of skill points to have several trees maxxed. So the game could keep dropping you items from that line.

    Or vice versa:
    Say you're wanting that really nice destro staff so you can start lvling up that skill line with a fun weapon.. Well if you haven't started it alreayd, you have trouble getting it.

    So no, actaully your last comment would be gone against in such a system in this game. We'd all have less choices as we'd stop getting loot of lines we MAY learn, and instead only get what we HAVE learned.. Losing the choose to change (as easily).

    Same with gaurenteed drops. A single boss to get your end game gear in 15min?
    Bit too fast for a game intended to last through monthly subscriptions.

    The ideal way to handle that, to avoid frusteration of bad luck is a token system. Each boss, or just end boss would drop 1 token, then youd trade in a number said token for an item of your choice. I'd recommend in the 15-25 range given how fast we can complete the dungeons, with perhaps a choice of getting a weaker version of the same item for 5 tokens.
    Edited by Axer on May 8, 2014 12:42AM
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • gemmill1b16_ESO
    What i think is ridiculous is,four of us did grotto yest and out of all the bosses one *** purple dagger dropped.Between four players that is just a complete waste of time.So we thought must just be "RNG" bad luck so we ran it again and the same *** purple dagger dropped.I now have 4 of these things sitting in bank and i'l prbably just decon them.
  • Libertha
    Libertha
    this needs changing so that loot is atleast tradable between party members for a certain amount of time.
  • Crescent
    Crescent
    ✭✭✭✭
    Entire game needs a loot revamp. Loot rewards suck everywhere not just in dungeons.

    And the art assets for armor weapons was pretty damn small. The same model for calcinium/galatite,etc is LAZY.
  • killedbyping
    killedbyping
    ✭✭✭✭
    Totaly agree with op.
    Im grinding dungeons only for SET items and only my party member were lucky go get it.

    Also making set items bound on pick up with out ability to trade the right to pick it up is frustrating.
    Set items are the only valuable items in dungeons.
    I have tons of other epic from bosses and literaly nobody wants them even for free...

    Also the system where you get EPIC OR NOTHING from boss is just stupid.
    Veteran dungeons are made to farm some nice items not soul gems and mana pots...
    There should be a 100% chance for random nice green or blue item. Then the current chance for epic would be fine.

    P.S. Why there is no green or blue sets in loot table ? Why dont you add same SET pieces but with green and blue quality with better chance to find ?
    Edited by killedbyping on May 11, 2014 12:35PM
  • Locke_ESO
    Locke_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Agree that this system needs work. I must of done in excess of 100+ VR10 dungeon runs by now but I still only have 2 parts of the 5 piece set that I want (worm cultist). The only people I know of that have got the complete set bonus armour got it through doing the Darkshade reset exploit. I've never heard of anyone getting the VR5 sets. There are plenty of good ways to do dungeon loot and atm this system is amongst the worst I've seen.

    Also as others have pointed out pretty much all the loot but the set piece armours and maybe 1-2 of the weapons are totally worthless anyway. I've sold literally hundreds of the rings and neckplaces to merchants as that is all they are good for.
    Edited by Locke_ESO on May 12, 2014 1:59AM
  • sminkiottone
    sminkiottone
    Soul Shriven
    Yesterday I made 2 boots fo the medium set in 1 run lol, at least make it so we can trade between group members pls.
    Templar from the Nord
  • Calgrissom
    Calgrissom
    ✭✭
    My group consist of Myself Tank in plate and 3 cloth users. It is very frustrating to see them consistently loot Ebon plate pieces while I have yet to receive a single one. Fix the loot.
  • bruceb14_ESO5
    bruceb14_ESO5
    ✭✭✭
    Too much information regarding what others are getting and then wanting a piece of that action or controlling the outcome causes frustration and grief. Running 75 dungeons and getting only 1 piece doesn't make sense, skip the dungeon runs if that is true. A shiny purple though is a giant tasty carrot, as long as someone else doesn't eat it in front of me. :)
  • killedbyping
    killedbyping
    ✭✭✭✭
    Agree that this system needs work. I must of done in excess of 100+ VR10 dungeon runs by now but I still only have 2 parts of the 5 piece set that I want (worm cultist). The only people I know of that have got the complete set bonus armour got it through doing the Darkshade reset exploit. I've never heard of anyone getting the VR5 sets. There are plenty of good ways to do dungeon loot and atm this system is amongst the worst I've seen.

    Also as others have pointed out pretty much all the loot but the set piece armours and maybe 1-2 of the weapons are totally worthless anyway. I've sold literally hundreds of the rings and neckplaces to merchants as that is all they are good for.

    That jewerly... It wouldnt be so bad if you atleast could enchant it like set onces.
    Edited by killedbyping on May 12, 2014 3:44PM
  • isokillb14_ESO
    The looting system would be nice if it where changed in some way to at least exchange gear with players in the party

    Just saying, but you do get a ton of exp from the runs so idk it balances out in a way but it can be frustrating to many i know for sure.
  • Axer
    Axer
    ✭✭✭✭
    wow. They are using this horribly broken system for trials too:
    http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/05/12/ask-us-anything-variety-pack-14?ref=rss

    Wow just wow. Really ZO? You want 12 players at once even more frusterated then we are now in the VR Dungeons?
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Axer
    Axer
    ✭✭✭✭
    Here's another article where the devs answer this and it's imo outrages and will just result in HORRIBLE amoutns of rage when this goes live:
    http://tamrielfoundry.com/2014/05/craglorn-rich-lambert/

    "Q: One of the most frustrating aspects of current veteran dungeons for organized groups involves loot allocation. The most desirable drops from Veteran Dungeons are not able to be traded to other members of your party. Does loot allocation from Trial encounters function similarly to veteran dungeons where every participant receives their own loot? Does this equipment typically bind on acquire, or can Trial loot be traded amongst your group in some way? It would be really great to be able to give that awesome shield that drops to our tank who would actually use it!

    Loot in Trials is handled the same way as in regular dungeons – where everyone gets their own roll on the loot table. The loot from the bosses, quest rewards, and leaderboard rankings are all BOP (bind on pickup/account)."

    ARGH.

    More bumps and more replies please. This is insanely frusterating in 4man. In 12 man it will be incredibly insanely terrible.

    I'm seriously at the ~300 mark on VR dungeon runs now.. And I STILL don't have a 5 piece vr10 ebon. Insane amounts have gotten decond/vendors by my party members tho. It's such bad game design.
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Axer
    Axer
    ✭✭✭✭
    Too much information regarding what others are getting and then wanting a piece of that action or controlling the outcome causes frustration and grief. Running 75 dungeons and getting only 1 piece doesn't make sense, skip the dungeon runs if that is true. A shiny purple though is a giant tasty carrot, as long as someone else doesn't eat it in front of me. :)

    Ignorance is bliss.
    But ignorance won't get me the loot I want to enjoy the game at the level me and my guild wish to play at. So no. I appreciate you enjoy not having it, and are fine iwth that. But we won't all enjoy the game in the same way. Personally I enjoy teamwork and sharing, this game very rarely allows that, it feels like a poor single player game where friends are sort of there, but somehow barred from REALLY playing with me.
    Axer. Main tank and Leader of Crush it! (NA-EP highly skilled trials guild)
  • Jastilus
    Jastilus
    ✭✭
    Drop? What drop?

    I have done 30+ Runs below level 50 and 20+ Runs since Vet and all I have got so far is one blue Sword level 35 from trash mobs and 4x the SAME blue ring from one boss. The 4 rings dropped after one encounter all, so I assume it was a bug.

    That is ALL the loot I ever got in dungeons that is blue or better.

    This isn't a loot system, it is a rushed excuse for content released way too soon.
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