Don't put a 6 man target cap on AOE for pvp

Ashigaru

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

I think putting a cap on healing spells is a HUGE issue and not only that but nerfing more regen on the templar. So you reduce the amount of people a heal hits which means that the healer needs to cast more times but wait we have also reduced the regen for a class that is pointed as being a healing class.

something just doesn't make sense to me. Of course we are not able to test it, other then the select few that did such a great job testing the game before it was launched

moXrox

Smaller groups should outplay a bigger group with strategy and not with RAMBO AoE.

Join a guild who does coordinated group tactics, not just 2-3 people who think they are the kings of the battlefield without even the need to be in an organized guild/group.

People had their fun with AoE for now and if nobody suggest an alternative to AoE cap....than do the cap. Players defeNding their loved fun toy and dont care about game improvements from a neutral standing point.

valkaneer2b14_ESO

moXrox wrote: »

Smaller groups should outplay a bigger group with strategy and not with RAMBO AoE.

Join a guild who does coordinated group tactics, not just 2-3 people who think they are the kings of the battlefield without even the need to be in an organized guild/group.

People had their fun with AoE for now and if nobody suggest an alternative to AoE cap....than do the cap. Players defeNding their loved fun toy and dont care about game improvements from a neutral standing point.

I have a suggestion... DON'T STAND IN THE AoE. You stand in the fire types need to leave.

Disappearingone

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Who says it will be? the people on PTS who've tested it, ALL AOE including Heals now has a 6 person cap

Where have you seen a list? Or every skill ran down on a stream? Only a few more notable skills have been named specifically then followed by "Ohh my sweet baby Jesus! There all capped now!"

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

I have heard more than one person claim that Jessica is out and out lying. So much rage this list needs happen....If I may, a more detailed tool tip on these skill would go along way in keeping the Villagers pitchforks lowered.

The problem is the people on PTS are only looking because they noticed the fixed AoEs.

They saw the ones that changed and that made them look at all the AoEs including the ones already capped on live too. You know, The caps no one knew existed because they never bothered to check?

And by the way all the AoEs in PTS are not capped Dark Talons and Rite of Passage are not, you can check with the PTS players. I'm sure there are others too.

I voted no to AoE caps on this thread because I beleave that there should be a more elegant way to combat the problem of people spamming one skill over and over then capping AoEs to begain with.

That said this is not going to break the game people..It's just not gonna.

Kingslayer

moXrox wrote: »

Smaller groups should outplay a bigger group with strategy and not with RAMBO AoE.

Join a guild who does coordinated group tactics, not just 2-3 people who think they are the kings of the battlefield without even the need to be in an organized guild/group.

People had their fun with AoE for now and if nobody suggest an alternative to AoE cap....than do the cap. Players defeNding their loved fun toy and dont care about game improvements from a neutral standing point.

And all the smaller groups outplay the larger groups with well timed and well placed yes you guessed it Aoe. With this change the need to get out of aoe won't matter heck we could all stand in one spot and just have an abundance of healers to heal through it. This will kill Cyrodiil.

Daendur

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

While working on a list of impacted abilities, I think you should provide us a list of all AoE abilities with target cap and the number of that cap.
I think it is pretty clear why a hard AoE cap should not be introduced for every skill, and I think that a skill-by-skill cap should be a good solution.
That cap should also be written in the skill tooltip.

I am sure you can understand why we (according to the poll in another post 1500+ppl (91%)) do not want the PvP to be turned into the mindless blobbing idiotic gameplay that is going on in GuildWars2. You should encourage teamwork, not a spam of random skills from the middle of a blob.

Thank you.

spokenworddb14_ESO

Daendur wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

While working on a list of impacted abilities, I think you should provide us a list of all AoE abilities with target cap and the number of that cap.
I think it is pretty clear why a hard AoE cap should not be introduced for every skill, and I think that a skill-by-skill cap should be a good solution.
That cap should also be written in the skill tooltip.

I am sure you can understand why we (according to the poll in another post 1500+ppl (91%)) do not want the PvP to be turned into the mindless blobbing idiotic gameplay that is going on in GuildWars2. You should encourage teamwork, not a spam of random skills from the middle of a blob.

Thank you.

Yes, I am VERY interested in a list of existing AOE abilities that are capped at the moment and what those caps are. If they are there they must be high caps because no one seems to have noticed these caps.

Kingslayer

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

Jessica maybe your development team just don't see this then, the lack of Aoe cap was a nice distinction to the other mmos out there it made Cyrodiil interesting and actually made it so Smaller well played teams can kill the zergs when executed well. Now it has turned it into Gw2 I can play this for free, I am not going to pay for something which is the same more or less. List or no this is a bad move. And lightning Flood has to be in that list i know this because i just hit x 8 in one ability. With this change we can all stand in one spot and know only 6 of us will get hit. Which can be healed nicely. Mindless game play.

Here endeth the lesson.

Laura

awkwarrd wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

Can you please post that note publicly.
I have had too many friends leave the game overnight after hearing about this, and would personally like to know the exact details.

they left before it went live? I would suggest you find new friends. I guarantee those type of friends would stab you in the back for a 10 dollar bill if they wouldn't get in trouble for it.

Mephane

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

It does not even matter so much what the current status is, the fact remains that an AoE cap is a very bad thing for the PvP metagame. You might think that the change is not so hefty because you say right now most AoE abilities already have a cap; well people are not aware of this, I don't even know which AoE has a cap besides those few that announce it in the tooltip. The current metagame therefore is the same as if there were no cap at all: avoid clustering up, spread out, strategy over mindless zerging.

Even if you halted that change and left everything as is, you (as in Zenimax as a whole) probably hurt the PvP metagame just by starting the spread of the knowledge that a lot of AoE skills have a cap and therefore implying that zerging might already be quite a valid tactic.

The proper course of action, for the sustained health of PvP, is to not just revert the change on the PTS, but to invert it - remove AoE caps everyone, and cap only secondary effects that really could become OP due stacking with itself (e.g. the buff from Drain Power), but still cap them high.

Digerati

http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857
I want to change my vote...

valkaneer2b14_ESO

Laura wrote: »

awkwarrd wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

To add a little explanation, all area-of-effect abilities in ESO--except a few edge cases (the ones we fixed)--have always had some sort of a cap. We simply fixed the handful that did not, and were supposed to. We haven't touched any of the others. We're editing the note to make it a bit more clear.

Can you please post that note publicly.
I have had too many friends leave the game overnight after hearing about this, and would personally like to know the exact details.

they left before it went live? I would suggest you find new friends. I guarantee those type of friends would stab you in the back for a 10 dollar bill if they wouldn't get in trouble for it.

Now why say that? Many people are canceling there accounts to make a statement of what they are willing to do if this goes live. No one wants to play a zerg fest game. Most all test realm stuff goes live. Only mass revolting stops something like this. Not to often I see 90% of people saying NO like this. What this will do is we find out if ZOS will listens to an over whelming out pour against this kind of a thing, or not.

Kingslayer

And still no official word on when the EU server will actually get it's own bloody server i mean come on the first major content patch is out soon. This is longer then just for the launch period like @ZOS_MattFiror‌ Claimed honestly i have to wonder at times.

Cuddler

Good change. There's no "skill" in running into enemy zerg and spamming 1-2 broken AOE abilities. Don't like dying to a larger group? Invite more players into yours, or go fight a different enemy group, or take a different objective. Cyrodiil is huge.

For abilities like Impulse, even 6 is too high a cap given its current damage, cost, and range.

Xsorus

Cuddler wrote: »

Good change. There's no "skill" in running into enemy zerg and spamming 1-2 broken AOE abilities. Don't like dying to a larger group? Invite more players into yours, or go fight a different enemy group, or take a different objective. Cyrodiil is huge.

For abilities like Impulse, even 6 is too high a cap given its current damage, cost, and range.

lol...

Everything wrong with gaming now a days summed up quite nicely

Mephane

Cuddler wrote: »

Don't like dying to a larger group? Invite more players into yours, or go fight a different enemy group

The very essence of zerg mentality, in a single sentence. You just proved the point you were arguing against.

Cuddler

Mephane wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

Don't like dying to a larger group? Invite more players into yours, or go fight a different enemy group

The very essence of zerg mentality, in a single sentence. You just proved the point you were arguing against.

So 3 people abusing a broken mechanic, with massive AOE damage that has large radius and no target cap, to kill 30 enemies in a tight space where they have nowhere to run, is "skill"?

And trying to find a group equal to yours in size, and beat them by identifying priority targets and actually using all abilities on your bar is "zerg mentality"?

I hope everyone who thinks like you rage quits this game because of the change and goes elsewhere. That would be another improvement for ESO PVP.

prana33b14_ESO

Cuddler wrote: »

So 3 people abusing a broken mechanic, with massive AOE damage that has large radius and no target cap, to kill 30 enemies in a tight space where they have nowhere to run, is "skill"?

AOE in DAOC is like this. It's not a broken mechanic. You need to see the mezzers and bomb groups in the game the devs said they were copying before talking anymore imo. Players need to be aware of what can happen and check for stealth bomb groups and CC them immediately when they pop up. It isn't that it requires a lot of skill, it's that the zerg is that stupid and doesn't need any more hand holding. It's as simple as "omg there are aoe groups running around, don't bunch up guise." So tough though, better dumb down the game amirite?

Xsorus

Cuddler wrote: »

Mephane wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

Don't like dying to a larger group? Invite more players into yours, or go fight a different enemy group

The very essence of zerg mentality, in a single sentence. You just proved the point you were arguing against.

So 3 people abusing a broken mechanic, with massive AOE damage that has large radius and no target cap, to kill 30 enemies in a tight space where they have nowhere to run, is "skill"?

And trying to find a group equal to yours in size, and beat them by identifying priority targets and actually using all abilities on your bar is "zerg mentality"?

I hope everyone who thinks like you rage quits this game because of the change and goes elsewhere. That would be another improvement for ESO PVP.

No where to run? They had an entire keep to run around in...

What.. you think you need 30 people standing on a flag to get credit? That's not how capping in this game works..you can be outside of the keep near it, and get credit.

Now I get that you're probably not a good player, but your badness shouldn't break the game because you don't know how to spread out from AoE's

Cuddler

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

So 3 people abusing a broken mechanic, with massive AOE damage that has large radius and no target cap, to kill 30 enemies in a tight space where they have nowhere to run, is "skill"?

AOE in DAOC is like this. It's not a broken mechanic. You need to see the mezzers and bomb groups in the game the devs said they were copying before talking anymore imo. Players need to be aware of what can happen and check for stealth bomb groups and CC them immediately when they pop up. It isn't that it requires a lot of skill, it's that the zerg is that stupid and doesn't need any more hand holding. It's as simple as "omg there are aoe groups running around, don't bunch up guise." So tough though, better dumb down the game amirite?

If it was not a broken mechanic, ZOS would not be fixing it. Have you seen the twitch video above? A good illustration of why it's broken, even if ZOS was not fixing the caps. You can't CC someone who's immune to CC, and in a tight space like the smaller inner keep there's little space to escape the large AOEs. Plus some of the AOEs have CC attached to them, stun or slow.

The only minimal "skill" in that video on the part of the attackers is the use of Immovable before dropping AOE. The rest equates to mindless farm with zero skill, which should not be possible in balanced PVP.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're working on pulling together a list of the impacted abilities. We'll likely have it tomorrow or Monday. That said, this only impacts a handful of area-of-effect abilities that did not already have a cap. Almost every area-of-effect ability in ESO already has a cap on the live server. This is not a sweeping change to all area-of-effect abilities.

Good job making the combat feel even more floaty. This game will be dead before you know it if you keep this up.

Cuddler

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

Mephane wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

Don't like dying to a larger group? Invite more players into yours, or go fight a different enemy group

The very essence of zerg mentality, in a single sentence. You just proved the point you were arguing against.

So 3 people abusing a broken mechanic, with massive AOE damage that has large radius and no target cap, to kill 30 enemies in a tight space where they have nowhere to run, is "skill"?

And trying to find a group equal to yours in size, and beat them by identifying priority targets and actually using all abilities on your bar is "zerg mentality"?

I hope everyone who thinks like you rage quits this game because of the change and goes elsewhere. That would be another improvement for ESO PVP.

No where to run? They had an entire keep to run around in...

What.. you think you need 30 people standing on a flag to get credit? That's not how capping in this game works..you can be outside of the keep near it, and get credit.

Now I get that you're probably not a good player, but your badness shouldn't break the game because you don't know how to spread out from AoE's

Hey, I have another version of events for you. The AOE mechanic is broken and being fixed, but your badness makes you throw up a hissy fit because you don't stand a chance in PVP without abusing the broken mechanic. How does my version sound to you?

Xsorus

Cuddler wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

So 3 people abusing a broken mechanic, with massive AOE damage that has large radius and no target cap, to kill 30 enemies in a tight space where they have nowhere to run, is "skill"?

AOE in DAOC is like this. It's not a broken mechanic. You need to see the mezzers and bomb groups in the game the devs said they were copying before talking anymore imo. Players need to be aware of what can happen and check for stealth bomb groups and CC them immediately when they pop up. It isn't that it requires a lot of skill, it's that the zerg is that stupid and doesn't need any more hand holding. It's as simple as "omg there are aoe groups running around, don't bunch up guise." So tough though, better dumb down the game amirite?

If it was not a broken mechanic, ZOS would not be fixing it. Have you seen the twitch video above? A good illustration of why it's broken, even if ZOS was not fixing the caps. You can't CC someone who's immune to CC, and in a tight space like the smaller inner keep there's little space to escape the large AOEs. Plus some of the AOEs have CC attached to them, stun or slow.

The only minimal "skill" in that video on the part of the attackers is the use of Immovable before dropping AOE. The rest equates to mindless farm with zero skill, which should not be possible in balanced PVP.

You mean the video of the 30 idiots standing on a spot they didn't have to stand on completely oblivious to anyone and everyone because they managed to knock a keeps door down and thus thought they were safe? Is that the video you're going to hitch your herp a derp too?

niocwy

For what it's worth, I'm in favor of NO AoE Caps, except for secondary effects.

Cuddler wrote: »

The only minimal "skill" in that video on the part of the attackers is the use of Immovable before dropping AOE. The rest equates to mindless farm with zero skill, which should not be possible in balanced PVP.

The only zero skill I see here is this zerg all clustered up in one place. Seriously. As said earlier, they deserved to die.

That being said it's OBVIOUS that the vamp utlimate is a bit too powerful, if not OP.

prana33b14_ESO

Should I start listing all the bomb videos from DAOC ?

valkaneer2b14_ESO

Cuddler wrote: »

Mephane wrote: »

Cuddler wrote: »

Don't like dying to a larger group? Invite more players into yours, or go fight a different enemy group

The very essence of zerg mentality, in a single sentence. You just proved the point you were arguing against.

So 3 people abusing a broken mechanic, with massive AOE damage that has large radius and no target cap, to kill 30 enemies in a tight space where they have nowhere to run, is "skill"?

And trying to find a group equal to yours in size, and beat them by identifying priority targets and actually using all abilities on your bar is "zerg mentality"?

I hope everyone who thinks like you rage quits this game because of the change and goes elsewhere. That would be another improvement for ESO PVP.

How about not standing in large groups where there is no where to run?

Mange

Digerati wrote: »

http://www.twitch.tv/prydatv/c/4079857
I want to change my vote...

Just to clear things up for you, that's a result of bat ultimate being broken more than anything. They would have never gotten away with that without it.

moXrox

Cuddler wrote: »

Good change. There's no "skill" in running into enemy zerg and spamming 1-2 broken AOE abilities. Don't like dying to a larger group? Invite more players into yours, or go fight a different enemy group, or take a different objective. Cyrodiil is huge.

For abilities like Impulse, even 6 is too high a cap given its current damage, cost, and range.

Funny, some in the threads even define 2-3 people already as an "organized group" ....I donno but for me an organized group needs a lot more players if you want to do anything with tactic or strategy.

In other strategical mmos/fps we had up to 80 players in a squad which were either together but often split in smaller 15-20 units and coordinated by the group leader and squad commander.

Nybling

Some people... particularly Matt Firor and Brian Wheeler need to come out and tell us if they want DAOC PvP or GW2 PvP sooner than later. Many of us want the former, but ZOS seems to have machinations to push the game away from a DAOC style game. This is unfortunate for many reasons, most of which have already been said.

All I can say is that if the change goes through I am going to be very disappointed with the direction Zenimax is taking this game.

Lexander

AoE should not be capped

it should be much weaker than single-target skills (like half of their power) and it should have higher mana/stamina costs