Would this game have been better with traditional classes ?

Thevenin

To begin with, I for one really like a lot of the bold design choices for this game - bold compared to the industry standard (WoW). The decisions to make 100% of the quests content interesting and relevant story-wise, to reduce the amout of information available in the UI so that my screen doesn't have to look like an aircraft *** to make me competitive, to move away from the standard BG/Arenas PvP, to make sure no content even solo is trivial at the appropriate level..

But one of the decisions which I think turns out to be a bad one is the "move out of classes" decision. I was kinda uncertain about it at first, but now I am convinced it's a bad trend (and ESO isn't exactly a pioneer, since it's been advertised by both Rift and GW2 as revolutionary before). The basic concept that lead the first RPG developpers to create classes were to promote diversity and teamwork. The usual problems are that for instance class X is absolutely required (or trivializes) group content in dungeon Y which leads to endless "LFM LAST X FOR Y" that last hours, or that class X design makes is so much better than class Z that noone wants to take class Z in groups / guilds anymore and the players are frustrated.

I believe Zenimax's answer, a dumbed down version of classes where some skills are shared and some are exclusive to a very small numer of classes, isn't solving anything. It's really more about stuffing the issues under the carpet. With fewer classes and shared abilities, you have less obvious class-related problems, but you also have less efficient class-related perks in the game.
This is emphasized by the 5-abilities action bar : 3 weeks after launch, it seems that most serious PvPers already run with pretty much the same abilities in their bars. You end up with 4 archetypes with minor variations. Some skills are absolutely mandatory, some are utterly useless, some are situational but they are shunned away by the mandatory skills. And the problem is going to get worse as people start breaking down the mechanics of the game.
The perks of having a traditional class system is that you shove strengths AND weaknesses down people's throats. If you play a healer, you ARE going to be vulnerable, no you can't get the blink spell to get you out of clipping range within 3 seconds. If you play a destruction mage with glass canon damage, you won't get that PBAoE root. The task of balancing something like that is tremendous, and probably downright impossible. They will never manage to make even 50% of all skills worth being taken in a given situation. Which means that everyone in this given situation is quickly going to learn which abilities to slot. Right now people simply ignore the weaknesses of their class and stack its strengths : Clones wars down the road.

Traditional classes would have allowed for much more interesting design decisions : niche roles are acceptable when they come as a package, they aren't if you can handpick their unique features. Druids in old-times world of warcraft had a very low healing output and terrible resource management, yet it came as the price for their unique buffs, versatility and special perks - like for instance being the only ones able to resurrect someone during a fight. If WoW had been built at that time like ESO is right now, all druids would have simply picked their innervate, buff and resurrect spell and dumped the rest of their abilities into the shared trees, making them grossly overpowered. To solve this, developpers would have had to nerf these "unique" perks, homogenizing and removing flavour from the game.
(Ironically, since that time, world of warcraft developpers have spent most of their time homogenizing classes in their class-based game because they thought people couldn't deal with it, but that's another problem.)

Sleepydan

I wish for the exact opposites. I want to see all class lines made available to all, and there be something like a limit to how many you can have active at a time. Say 5. You could be a dark magic, siphoning, ardent flame, heavy armor, blacksmith class. Or whatever.

Give 10 or 6 or whatever the sweet spot is regarding skill line access, and REALLY let people decide who they want to be.

Id be fine with having a Rock Paper Scissors lizard Spock, so that way even a best thing has a definite trump build.

For instance, if slower huge hits were the current metagame op, then an ability that would make all damage do a set %of hp would be crazy good. Then people would use a bunch of fast little attacks and melt you down. Then you change again ad naseum.

Id also be fine if everything was fairly similar in terms of damage output and the difference was mainly, what interesting way can you "break the rules" with really cool abilities.

I digress. I want a lot of things.

But I don't want classes, or more impossible to combine skill lines. Sorry.

Alyrn_Grey

The game would not be properly be part of the Elder Scrolls with traditional classes. None of the previous Elder Scrolls games had traditional classes so no.

Thevenin

Actually, if I remember correctly, Oblivion had 21 classes.
That would've been quite an awesome start.

Jadeviper1974

I think it would have been better to let people make their own classes and pick 3 skill sets, but that is just me.

Damd

Um, this is the "Elder Scrolls". The series is well known for the freedom it allows players. Going with traditional classes would make it just another MMO with Elder Scrolls skin.

Personally, I think even the current system is to limited. For years all people wanted was to play an Elder Scrolls game with there friends. How can these people be satisfied if it is just "another" MMO with Elder Scrolls skin?
There are tons of MMO's that do exactly what you are asking.

There will always be players who min/max the game. However, there are a lot of players who get enjoyment out of making unusual builds just for the fun of the build. The min/max gamers will always have similar builds no matter the game they play. They will calculate the numbers and figure out what is theoretically the "best" build and only run that.

Traditional classes lead to the same MMO's we have already been playing. Limited ideas that have all been done before to one extent or another. If people want to play traditional classes there are plenty of games that already do it.

Nox_Aeterna

Like already said above , if anything , i would have liked if the devs dropped the class system totally.

Just pick some skill tress at game start , or maybe everyone can use ALL of them , you lvl the ones you like the most.

I would have been so happy if i could do that ... but i guess i have to pick one and go for it.

Rosveen

Thevenin wrote: »

Actually, if I remember correctly, Oblivion had 21 classes.
That would've been quite an awesome start.

They weren't restrictive classes, only guidelines. You could still max out every single skill. You could play as a 'warrior' who never lifted a sword and became a master wizard. More importantly, you could make a custom class and freely mix and match your main skills - which is what most people did, I'd never used a preset class in a TES game until ESO.

If ESO wants to keep any semblance of an Elder Scrolls game, it cannot have closed classes. Even three exclusive skill lines are contrary to the series' tradition, I wish they'd dropped classes altogether. I wouldn't be playing this game if it had traditional classes.

Chelo

I dont want classes anymore... All characters should be able to level all skill trees and then just pick the 5 skills + 1 ultimate that they like. Passives should be limited just by ''while using weapon/armor or while skill slotted''... Moderm MMOs doesnt need a class system anymore, just stick with the racial habilities because everybody like races. Give us access to all but limit our choices and let us create our truly original characters, thats the path that Moderm MMOs should follow...

Sleepwalker

Wasn't easy understanding the OP's question, but I think I've got it. Am I correct that we're talking about the different MMO roles and how the classes in ESO can fill them?

Were you suggesting that ESO failed by keeping those roles in this game?

Thevenin

Yes, I think they failed to make characters complementary with each other.

Had they done what many suggest here, completely removed classes and let everyone pick the skill lines they wish, which healer would have anything else on his bar than templar heals, siphoning strikes, dark exchange and bolt ?
Everyone would have standard or purple bubble as an ultimate.

Freedom is fine in a single game because you aren't competing with anyone, you go at your own pace and have fun on your own. Having a gimped character is a major turnoff in a multiplayer game.

MKLS

To comment on the point of "having a gimped character is a major turnoff in a multiplayer game"

You can reset skills as you see fit so I don't see how you can have a gimped charater - it is all down to play style.

This system allows you to play the game as you want in the way you want - which is what I love about it.

If the way that you want to play changes you can reset your skills and change your character completely ie you start out as a heavy armour soul grabbing pet class sorc which you find is great fun for soloing and wandering about picking up stuff and then decide to join a high end raiding guild and respecc to conform to the max min norm you can do that - thats your choice.

Respeccing to max min for high end raids in competitive guilds has always been needed anyway as you need to spec to meet the guilds needs not your own - its simply the players choice whether they want to make the choice to do that.

Shaun98ca2

Umm at 1s the devs were going to go with a class less system but the current system just made more sense. Everybody that plays KNOWS what they want to be before they even start the game aka TANK HEALER MAGE ROGUE.

They have those templates in place but that's all they are is templates. You can fulfill all roles and wear any armor type you like.

They even took into consideration light armor tank for DK and Sorcerer. GO figure lol.

Sleepwalker

Thevenin wrote: »

Yes, I think they failed to make characters complementary with each other.

Had they done what many suggest here, completely removed classes and let everyone pick the skill lines they wish, which healer would have anything else on his bar than templar heals, siphoning strikes, dark exchange and bolt ?
Everyone would have standard or purple bubble as an ultimate.

Freedom is fine in a single game because you aren't competing with anyone, you go at your own pace and have fun on your own. Having a gimped character is a major turnoff in a multiplayer game.

This comment makes zero sense to me... and so does the suggestion to remove classes. I say in all sincerity, why the hell would they do that?

More complimentary?? How could this system make characters that compliment each other better? It gives countless options in making a viable tanking, healing, or dps character while also allowing the healers and tanks to do great dps on their own while solo without some kind of "dual-spec" mechanism (which I've never seen happen before.) In addition, these players can take their builds into PVP and perform just fine (with a few hotbar tweaks before the battle probably.)

I'm sorry, but how exactly are you seeing that the players aren't complimenting one another? If that were the case, none of the group content would be getting done at all, and that's clearly not the case. It's all getting done quite well by players that have had the total freedom to make any class play well in any role. Not even sure how that can be argued intelligently...

And your first paragraph? Wow... all skills in the game available to all players? The notion is just beyond ridiculous as balance would never be able to be achieved. But just for giggles, let's say that was the case: All healers taking nothing but templar powers when so many other options are not only available, but viable? What kind of gamers do you play with that you think all players are drones like that??

AlexDougherty

WOW classes wouldn't suit the Elder Scrolls universe, Druids in the Elder Scrolls Universe for example are rare cults, usually no more than a dozen people, less than a hundred WORLDWIDE. D&D Classes are barely any better, not quite fitting in with Tamriel.

The Elder Scrolls have their own classes, and Nightblade was one of them, perhaps a few more of them would have been nice, and definately a few more abilities would have been nicer too. Oh well, that's life.

Custos91

The current system is perfect and I don't think we should remove it, because traditional players could be lost without it...
And:
Oblivion had classes, but you could also build you own class, did this everytime^^

Phaeze

I have seen what a class-less system is like. Play EVE Online. You can literally learn and max every skill in the game, given the right amount of time put into the game. They managed to hold it together just fine. People played exactly how they wanted, and they could find corporations (EVE's version of guilds) that would hire them on for the skills they had. ESO implements a bit of limitation. Sure, I would have loved to play in a class-less system again, but I am finding that this system has its own fun while still remaining fairly true to the Elder Scrolls feel. Yes, you will have munchkins who play the elitist card in both PvE and PvP. However, that is not ESO's fault.

Sleepwalker

Oh, I see the confusion...

ESO is not EVE Online. Fixed.

Phaeze

Sleepwalker wrote: »

Oh, I see the confusion...

ESO is not EVE Online. Fixed.

Unfortunately, that's only half the confusion. The other half is: ESO is not WoW.

ESO is a partial sandbox game. You've got lots of shared skills, and then four classes with their own skill set that they have exclusive access to.

People who came from games like EVE feel restricted by not being able to have all the skills. People who came from games like WoW feel non-unique with so many skills available outside the class skills. The matter is not served any better for the EVE players, given that in the previous (and admittedly single player) Elder Scrolls games, you were able to level any skill you wanted (even if it wasn't one of your "class" skills, as provided through pre-made or player-made classes).

Stautmeister

The current system actually lets everyone play whatever role they want while still giving the different classes a niche to perform in.

Sorc with negate magic, DK's with burning talons, templars with burst heal and nightblades for single target dmg.
(these are only examples.there are more)

The flexibility of skill allows for both extra character customization in the future (they can just add skill lines) Gives casual players the ability to play however they want. and give the elitist some min/maxing to optimize builds.

timborggrenlarsenb16_ESO

Thevenin wrote: »

To begin with, I for one really like a lot of the bold design choices for this game - bold compared to the industry standard (WoW). The decisions to make 100% of the quests content interesting and relevant story-wise, to reduce the amout of information available in the UI so that my screen doesn't have to look like an aircraft *** to make me competitive, to move away from the standard BG/Arenas PvP, to make sure no content even solo is trivial at the appropriate level..

But one of the decisions which I think turns out to be a bad one is the "move out of classes" decision. I was kinda uncertain about it at first, but now I am convinced it's a bad trend (and ESO isn't exactly a pioneer, since it's been advertised by both Rift and GW2 as revolutionary before). The basic concept that lead the first RPG developpers to create classes were to promote diversity and teamwork. The usual problems are that for instance class X is absolutely required (or trivializes) group content in dungeon Y which leads to endless "LFM LAST X FOR Y" that last hours, or that class X design makes is so much better than class Z that noone wants to take class Z in groups / guilds anymore and the players are frustrated.

I believe Zenimax's answer, a dumbed down version of classes where some skills are shared and some are exclusive to a very small numer of classes, isn't solving anything. It's really more about stuffing the issues under the carpet. With fewer classes and shared abilities, you have less obvious class-related problems, but you also have less efficient class-related perks in the game.
This is emphasized by the 5-abilities action bar : 3 weeks after launch, it seems that most serious PvPers already run with pretty much the same abilities in their bars. You end up with 4 archetypes with minor variations. Some skills are absolutely mandatory, some are utterly useless, some are situational but they are shunned away by the mandatory skills. And the problem is going to get worse as people start breaking down the mechanics of the game.
The perks of having a traditional class system is that you shove strengths AND weaknesses down people's throats. If you play a healer, you ARE going to be vulnerable, no you can't get the blink spell to get you out of clipping range within 3 seconds. If you play a destruction mage with glass canon damage, you won't get that PBAoE root. The task of balancing something like that is tremendous, and probably downright impossible. They will never manage to make even 50% of all skills worth being taken in a given situation. Which means that everyone in this given situation is quickly going to learn which abilities to slot. Right now people simply ignore the weaknesses of their class and stack its strengths : Clones wars down the road.

Traditional classes would have allowed for much more interesting design decisions : niche roles are acceptable when they come as a package, they aren't if you can handpick their unique features. Druids in old-times world of warcraft had a very low healing output and terrible resource management, yet it came as the price for their unique buffs, versatility and special perks - like for instance being the only ones able to resurrect someone during a fight. If WoW had been built at that time like ESO is right now, all druids would have simply picked their innervate, buff and resurrect spell and dumped the rest of their abilities into the shared trees, making them grossly overpowered. To solve this, developpers would have had to nerf these "unique" perks, homogenizing and removing flavour from the game.
(Ironically, since that time, world of warcraft developpers have spent most of their time homogenizing classes in their class-based game because they thought people couldn't deal with it, but that's another problem.)

No with 100% freedom, and more darkness like skill lines

rlconeb14_ESO

I have to say I wish for the exact opposite as some others mentioned. If I had wanted another classed based game I could have stayed with any other mmo pretty much. I wanted the elder scrolls feel so the current class restriction really takes away from the game for me.

williams226

I like what ESO have done with the classes.

We still have the ability to create what we want and play how we want. When you join a guild all your alts are in the guild. So you can have a min/max char if thats what you want, or you can also have the char you want. Swop around play how you like. Just enjoy the game.

I love how we can just make up what we want and play it, a bosmer sorc with a bow is like a hunter class but offers it own style. If you want to be a mage you can pretty much roll any class, wear light armour, use range spells, and equip a staff and away you go, throw in an alternate weapon and your mage can then be something different.

That's still more than wow has got, if you want be a mage you can be either fire / frost / arcane. Very limited choice and one thing with wow is you always fall into the min/max no matter what. If your not in the max you pretty much not gonna get far in dungeons.

Harming

I actually agree with the op on this one. The only game I've played with an "open class system" that's worked was Runescape (pre-eoc). I think more rigid classes with more options, say 12-16 classes as opposed to 4 open ended would have fit this game better.
More like DAoC. Every class filled it's own role. They way things are now is making me bored with the game. Like someone said before, there's already certain builds and skills that are nearly mandatory to have for the top builds. This is gona devolve into a bunch of clones running the same build competing with eachother. Not fun
~ Harming

Nox_Aeterna

Custos91 wrote: »

The current system is perfect and I don't think we should remove it, because traditional players could be lost without it...
And:
Oblivion had classes, but you could also build you own class, did this everytime^^

Oblivion classes did NOT lock skill trees.

All it did was allow you to pick which lines would be your "main" lines , and thus decide when you could lvl up by lvling them.

And it was not a smart choice to just pick the ones you used the most , the smart choice was to select trees you could lvl when you wanted by training , this way you could lvl main skills enough to get the max stats bonus at lvl up without wasting skill lvls.

AlexDougherty

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Oblivion classes did NOT lock skill trees.

All it did was allow you to pick which lines would be your "main" lines , and thus decide when you could lvl up by lvling them.

And it was not a smart choice to just pick the ones you used the most , the smart choice was to select trees you could lvl when you wanted by training , this way you could lvl main skills enough to get the max stats bonus at lvl up without wasting skill lvls.

That's why I always chose Acrobat, running was the only thing I constantly did that had any effect on level, and after a while that was minimal, run for three weeks to get from level 4 to level 5, I could live with that.

thomas.manzellaub17_ESO

Classes in this game are a huge cluster eff. Jack of all, master of none. They really must not have focused much on classes and class mechanics. They seem rushed, half done, and are riddled with spelling errors and vague/difficult to comprehend explanations.

I wouldn't like traditional classes. I love the idea of what they're doing but wish they'd extrapolate on it a LOT more

Jadeviper1974 wrote: »

I think it would have been better to let people make their own classes and pick 3 skill sets, but that is just me.

This would be nice. Split each class into their 3 trees and let people pick and choose each tree for the 3 that would go into their "class". More than 12 trees would be nice as well lol.

Also more weapons would be nice.
Pole-arms
Chain/rope Weapons
Cross Bows
Throwing weapons

Xaei

The game as it is won't work well for it.

Take GW2 for example, getting 80 is pretty quick, and your main story quests are different for each race until half-way through, with different missions depending on the choices you made. So making an alt doesn't take long and the game helps you a bit by giving you a different experience.

It takes a LOT of time to get to vr10, and you wouldve done every quest and every dungeon along the way, so obviously your character's in it for the long haul and making an alt is basically playing the game all over again.

In fact, they should have just gotten rid of classes all together, because frankly, I can't imagine myself getting 2 characters to VR10+.

Dagoth_Rac

Last night, I was doing Wayrest Sewers with 3 other people. I was a damage dealing Templar, with dual wield for attack, Aedric Spear/Dawn's Wrath for attack, Nova ultimate for AoE damage, 5 pieces of light armor for the magicka boosts, eating a stew to buff his magicka for 35 minutes. And I did lots of damage for 90% of the dungeon. When we got to the end, the dungeon boss kept picking on me. She just seemed to be out to get me. So I switched to 1H+S and Restoring Light. Lots of blocking and interrupting, lots of self-heal, lots of armor buffing, very little attacking. Basically, I tanked the dungeon boss while the other 3 killed her. I have never played another MMO, just single player ES games. Maybe this is not unusual for MMOs. But it seemed cool that I could play another role, on the fly, as the circumstances presented themselves. It also seemed very Elder Scrolls-y to have that kind of flexibility.

In other words, I think the class/skill stuff is fine. And fun! :-)

Nox_Aeterna

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Last night, I was doing Wayrest Sewers with 3 other people. I was a damage dealing Templar, with dual wield for attack, Aedric Spear/Dawn's Wrath for attack, Nova ultimate for AoE damage, 5 pieces of light armor for the magicka boosts, eating a stew to buff his magicka for 35 minutes. And I did lots of damage for 90% of the dungeon. When we got to the end, the dungeon boss kept picking on me. She just seemed to be out to get me. So I switched to 1H+S and Restoring Light. Lots of blocking and interrupting, lots of self-heal, lots of armor buffing, very little attacking. Basically, I tanked the dungeon boss while the other 3 killed her. I have never played another MMO, just single player ES games. Maybe this is not unusual for MMOs. But it seemed cool that I could play another role, on the fly, as the circumstances presented themselves. It also seemed very Elder Scrolls-y to have that kind of flexibility.

In other words, I think the class/skill stuff is fine. And fun! :-)

Well , that is valid for roles , im not saying you cant perform all the roles , to a point mind you.

But i still defend that , if we could lvl any tree that we wanted on every char , this game would be MUCH funnier than the way they locked the skills trees. Even if they made not "class skills" lvl slower.

PS: im also a templar , im happy with the class, to a point , only the lack of mana gets me , right now im lvling the resto staff to make up for that.

alienbongs

I have to agree with the OP. Individual classes give me, personally, a greater sense of belonging in a larger group. Ironically, I feel as if my character is also more unique when I have a multitude of classes to pick from, than I do from an open skill tree system.

Also, whoever said that the classes in Morrowind and Oblivion were merely "guidelines"... you do realize that certain skills were off limits to certain classes, right? I'm amazed by how little the current player base ACTUALLY played previous ES titles, but that is neither here nor there.