There is no such thing as Dwarven Ore
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Catdrexion✭✭✭What the average person alive today knows about life on Earth 1000 years ago is nearly completly wrong. Even historians are working of of incorrect assumptions, reading only one sided views of events. It is actually much more realistic to see that a book written 1000 in the future would get it wrong.
Your character in this game is seeing firsthand what your characters in Skyrim are reading about in history books, and if you read history books, you know how biased they are.
If this was Earth then perhaps this answer would have been acceptable, but it's not. This is Nirn and we know for a fact through multiple OOC sources that Dwarven metal was an alloy and not an ore.2 -
KanedaSyndrome✭✭✭✭I agree 100%.KanedaSyndrome's Suggestions For Game Improvements
The Fortuitous Collapse of the Wave Equation
The Best Plans Require No Action1 -
RaShaava✭This is completely ridiculous.
Number one: Held accountable? Are you the Tamriellic Police? Are you going to lead them to Alkosh and beg they be burned in his holy flames? Your mother should slap you.
Number two: Who are you to say there is no "dwarven ore?" You're not a Bethesda loremaster, nor are you a dwemer. Just because that's its colloquial name doesn't mean it has anything to do with dwemer metal, which any blacksmith worth his or her salt knows is an alloy. And who is to say it is not the fundamental ore involved with the creation of dwemer metal? How do you know that it doesn't get its familiar luster and coloring from exposure to Nirn's core through the secret tempering techniques of the dwemer? Who is to say that all exposed sources of the ore weren't mined out by bots in the second era and that is why they are not present in the third and fourth?
Number three: I would be FAR more concerned about the fact that the game occurs before the "Warp in the West" and no signs of the pre-Daggerfall world exist. Where are all the other provinces and enormous cities? Also, the fact that the Numidium is somewhere out there makes me sad. That aside, there are many minor issues with the lore, but as someone stated, this is centuries before Arena. Facts can be forgotten or distorted. Still, I find it funny how no books ever mentioned the fact that the Aldmeri Dominion, Ebonhart Pact, and Daggerfall Covenant were vying for the throne in a massive all-out war with one another. Only one book ever mentioned Molag Bal trying to drag Tamriel into his Oblivion plane (which was also never named Coldharbour until ESO came out. Interesting how no scholars mentioned that with tens of thousands of soul-shriven running around). They've also completely rewritten and named the whole part about spell-casters of insufficient power popping like water balloons as the two planes got too close. But then, I guess the name of an ore is pretty upsetting. Why worry about people randomly exploding? If you're that worried about it, you should be asking WHY it's called "dwarven ore" instead of just insisting that people should be killed for it. It's far more constructive to ask questions and speculate wildly than to demand justice when no crime has been committed. One is the sign of a healthy and creative mind. The other is a sign of mental instability.
Number four: Daedric Princes are ALWAYS referred to as princes. This is covered in quite a few lorebooks. Many of them show themselves as male and as female, though some have chosen one and stuck to it despite being genderless. Meanwhile, as you're arguing over whether daedric princes are male or female, Hircine is running around as a deer, a human, a wolf, a bear, and a sabercat, all at the same time in different parts of Tamriel. Seems a bit pointless to be worried about which bits and bobs the others have. Also, just because something such as a title isn't in a lorebook doesn't mean that it isn't true. The different races have widely varying ideas on the nature of the gods. The khajiit, for example, believe in Azurah, who is not the same entity as the Daedric Prince Azura, nor is she aedra. But she is still a goddess and speaks to them. That fits into none of the other lore, but it's in the lore.
Number five: You can't complain about steel not being made like real-world steel in one breath and in the next, excuse ebony for not being wood. Perhaps steel is a naturally-occurring thing on Nirn. Perhaps it is not steel as we know it, just as ebony is not what we would call it here. You make steel with iron and corundum in Skyrim, after all. Why is no one freaking out about that? Corundum is aluminum oxide that contains chromium, iron, titanium and other metallic traces, so perhaps high iron is simply exposed chunks of ferrous aluminum oxide that would, by definition, be steel ore by Skyrim standards. Corundum is also a crystal, which couldn't be made into metallic ingots. Neither could malachite, which is a copper carbonate mineral rock. Quicksilver is another term for mercury, which would be equally impossible to make into ingots...or anything solid, for that fact...but nobody's freaking out about that, are they? It's ridiculous to try to fit a correlation between the Tamriellic metals and their real-world equivalents when they have little in common other than name and color.
Number six: I agree that dwemer should be a motif. They've added primal and barbaric, which are neat, but I'd have preferred to see the familiar dwemer stylings over random new ones. There is also lore that suggests dwemer weapons and armor are actually just discarded pieces of dwemer automatons, however, so maybe they didn't even make weapons and armor. The lore often contradicts itself worse than the Bible. And where is the chimer motif? Where is the dragon motif? Falmer? Maormer? Akaviri? There are a lot of other important things being left out. Getting your panties all bunched up over one of them won't leave much bunching room for all the other omitted curiosities. On that same topic, why are there no katanas, dai-katanas, or wakazashi? Did the Warp in the West make everyone forget how to make them or that they existed at all? Or would the logical mind find a peaceful medium...such as it's simply different names for different styles of weapons as per the different motifs? Try being reasonable.
Number seven: M'aiq is an easter egg and shouldn't be taken seriously. There's no way he would be alive in Skyrim, either if he shouldn't be here. But he was there. And if one DOES take him seriously, then one would know that his name is passed down from father to son. If the one present in ESO is the first (though he claims otherwise), the one in the third era could be the six-hundredth. The one in Skyrim the thousandth. That is a lot more M'aiq than one should ever imagine existing.
Number eight: It's a video game. Just get over it. If you don't like it, go back to the old games and never play another new one again. I love the lore more than the games, honestly, and I dislike that they are always modifying the lore (such as the term Dragonborn never applying to the Emperor's bloodline until Skyrim or the Amulet of Kings being mentioned before Oblivion), but to keep at peace with an ever-changing lore, one has to realize that it is a living thing. As they add new stories, they expand and modify the lore. To demand justice for that is to wish its death just for one's own peace of mind. THAT is something that one should be held accountable for. I would prefer the lore continue to grow, as it may begin to answer some of the age-old questions of the series. Or would you then cry about them revealing things that weren't known in the third and fourth eras, too?9 -
R0M2K✭✭✭✭Man, played the series since Morrowind and i can stand other things...
But dwarven ore is a FAIL.3 -
rtx✭✭✭@RaShaava:
Coldharbour was mentioned before ESO.
What's Warp in the West?
Dwemer actually made armour, AFAIR it was mentioned by yahrum bagarn in the same sentence in which he said that dwarven armour are just centurion pieces glued woth super glue and reinforced with duct tape [please don't take last part of this sentence seriously].
It was also mentioned about war for the throne that took place shortly before Tiber Septim.
I also think that quicksilver armour is dumb, especially that it's better than ebony in this game.
According to you statement Ma'iqs breed like rabbits with new generation every year, lol.
Other than that - great post, a pleasure to read.0 -
joanjett✭✭✭Well thats it i'm done with this game.....they got the ore wrong im leaving!
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."1 -
icengr_ESO✭✭✭I can see your point but this isn't an elder scrolls game. its an mmo ... that "closely" resembles the elder scrolls. delving for dwarven bits to smelt into armor itsthe proper way. but it doesn't fit into the blacksmithing system they made.0 -
AlexDougherty✭✭✭✭✭
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So that's what Corundum is, thanks. Steel was historically made by continously beating the carbon out of it (in a forge hitting Iron cause the Carbon in it to spark and form CO2, leaving the iron purer), which can't really be shown with ingredients. Technically steel armour and weapons have the same ingredients as iron weapons and armour, just a different technique.Number five: You can't complain about steel not being made like real-world steel in one breath and in the next, excuse ebony for not being wood. Perhaps steel is a naturally-occurring thing on Nirn. Perhaps it is not steel as we know it, just as ebony is not what we would call it here. You make steel with iron and corundum in Skyrim, after all. Why is no one freaking out about that? Corundum is aluminum oxide that contains chromium, iron, titanium and other metallic traces, so perhaps high iron is simply exposed chunks of ferrous aluminum oxide that would, by definition, be steel ore by Skyrim standards.
Edit, prior to blast furnaces, smelted iron had 8-10% carbon content, steel has 1% carbon content. The only technique available to smiths was literally hammering the stuff out of it.
Dwemer did make Armour and weapons, but others scavenged Centurion components and made them into armour. Other even melted down Dwemer metals and cast them into new Armour and weapons, like in Skyrim.Number six: I agree that dwemer should be a motif. They've added primal and barbaric, which are neat, but I'd have preferred to see the familiar dwemer stylings over random new ones. There is also lore that suggests dwemer weapons and armor are actually just discarded pieces of dwemer automatons, however, so maybe they didn't even make weapons and armor. The lore often contradicts itself worse than the Bible.
Edited by AlexDougherty on April 30, 2014 9:54AMPeople believe what they either want to be true or what they are afraid is true!
Wizard's first rule
Passion rules reason
Wizard's third rule
Mind what people Do, not what they say, for actions betray a lie.
Wizard's fifth rule
Willfully turning aside from the truth is treason to one's self
Wizard's tenth rule0 -
Zephyr✭✭The Dwemyr Spiders in this one Public Dungeon WERE named DWARVEN and there was a lot of things that made me cringe lorewise. I just, sure it is a silly thing, but the Lore has been kept the same for decades, why would it be different now?NA Server - Ebonheart Pact - Irisana1 -
That is not what op means I believe. They should name it in whatever way they want to but it should not contain in it's name any reference to dwarfs, dwemers and so on. Then it would make much more sense. Not to mention that in original games I've got an impression that all dwarven / dwemer items were relicts of the past and artifacts to be found. In here it looks like everyone can have full set of dwarven gear with no effort to it. Make little sense really.Because ESO isn't every other Elder Scrolls single player game. They had to use some creative license to make it fit into an MMO. Having "Dwarven Ore" as a type of mineable node in the progression of zones makes more sense than having every other ore type be mined from a node but having Dwarven Ingots only accessible by picking up and melting down junk from Dwemer ruins.
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Jankstar✭✭✭Catdrexion wrote: »I encountered an ordinator from Mournhold in Grahtwood. He said that Alm3xia sent him there but I clearly remember killing Sothasil Vivicand Almelexia When I played morrowind.
That hasn't happened yet, ESO is before Morrowind. One day you will in the future.
Edited by Jankstar on April 29, 2014 8:46PM0 -
Moonchilde✭✭✭The developers are leaving themselves with content to add *later*. Think about it. people will max out the content in the release within days, some will play weeks or months, and have 'seen it all'. How do you keep customers in an MMO? Expansions of content.
They will add your 'missing' armors later, so people can come back to the game to experience them. Silver, Netch, Bonemold, Dwarven, Glass, Aedric, etc.. these things will come in time, just watch.0 -
Rosveen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭.
There's nothing wrong with saying Dwarves instead of Dwemer. Both names are commonly used in Tamriel. As it happens, all dwarven automatons in Skyrim were called just that. dwarven.The Dwemyr Spiders in this one Public Dungeon WERE named DWARVEN and there was a lot of things that made me cringe lorewise. I just, sure it is a silly thing, but the Lore has been kept the same for decades, why would it be different now?0 -
aipex8_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Number six: I agree that dwemer should be a motif. They've added primal and barbaric, which are neat, but I'd have preferred to see the familiar dwemer stylings over random new ones. There is also lore that suggests dwemer weapons and armor are actually just discarded pieces of dwemer automatons, however, so maybe they didn't even make weapons and armor. The lore often contradicts itself worse than the Bible. And where is the chimer motif? Where is the dragon motif? Falmer? Maormer? Akaviri? There are a lot of other important things being left out. Getting your panties all bunched up over one of them won't leave much bunching room for all the other omitted curiosities. On that same topic, why are there no katanas, dai-katanas, or wakazashi? Did the Warp in the West make everyone forget how to make them or that they existed at all? Or would the logical mind find a peaceful medium...such as it's simply different names for different styles of weapons as per the different motifs? Try being reasonable.
I was really hoping for Akaviri weapons and armor. It definitely should be a motif. The Akaviri Potentate ruled the empire for 400 years (Versidue-Shaie was a Tsaesci, or vampire snake man) after having Reman III assassinated. He did a crap job and ended up getting assassinated himself which signaled the beginning of the interregnum (where we are now). There should be more of an Akaviri influence at this point in Tamriel's history.1 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »wCatdrexion wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »are you sure you're not over thinking this?
ZOS said they would be sticking to lore. This is just so an obvious oversight that it makes me feel likeethey don't actually care about the franchise or community at all and that we've been lied too. I don't see how I am over thinking anything.
Look all i am trying to say is that this is a silly thing yo let ruin your gaming experience. I encountered an ordinator from Mournhold in Grahtwood. He said that Alm3xia sent him there but I clearly remember killing Sothasil Vivicand Almelexia When I played morrowind.
But whatever it was a fun quest anyway.
This game is WAY before TES:III, so no, you didn't kill Almalexia and Vivec yet. Why would anyone kill Vivec anyway? I just let him walk away, he is one of the best characters of the entire franchise.
And you didn't kill Sotha Sil at all. Almalexia killed him after she lost her mind.
Wrong, ZOS says it takes place after oblivion and before skyrim. Plus if it takes place before morro wind that means that the is at least one dwarf left alive who could have easily shown people how to make the metal.
No, they didnt.
The year is 2E 582.
The Nerevarine happened in 3E 427.0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oh and Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion all take place within less than 50 years of each other. Skyrim was in 4E 201.0 -
Kronosphere✭✭✭✭Number six: I agree that dwemer should be a motif. They've added primal and barbaric, which are neat, but I'd have preferred to see the familiar dwemer stylings over random new ones. There is also lore that suggests dwemer weapons and armor are actually just discarded pieces of dwemer automatons, however, so maybe they didn't even make weapons and armor. The lore often contradicts itself worse than the Bible. And where is the chimer motif? Where is the dragon motif? Falmer? Maormer? Akaviri? There are a lot of other important things being left out. Getting your panties all bunched up over one of them won't leave much bunching room for all the other omitted curiosities. On that same topic, why are there no katanas, dai-katanas, or wakazashi? Did the Warp in the West make everyone forget how to make them or that they existed at all? Or would the logical mind find a peaceful medium...such as it's simply different names for different styles of weapons as per the different motifs? Try being reasonable.
Hey man cant remember where i read it but im pretty sure the dwemer armor found in Tes 3 Morrowind was the parts of machinery where-as the oblivion and skyrim armor was actual dwemer armor worn by the dwemer themselves=)
~House Indoril~
Submit to the three, the spirits and thy lords.0 -
Kronosphere✭✭✭✭ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »wCatdrexion wrote: »ron.spark79_ESO wrote: »are you sure you're not over thinking this?
ZOS said they would be sticking to lore. This is just so an obvious oversight that it makes me feel likeethey don't actually care about the franchise or community at all and that we've been lied too. I don't see how I am over thinking anything.
Look all i am trying to say is that this is a silly thing yo let ruin your gaming experience. I encountered an ordinator from Mournhold in Grahtwood. He said that Alm3xia sent him there but I clearly remember killing Sothasil Vivicand Almelexia When I played morrowind.
But whatever it was a fun quest anyway.
This game is WAY before TES:III, so no, you didn't kill Almalexia and Vivec yet. Why would anyone kill Vivec anyway? I just let him walk away, he is one of the best characters of the entire franchise.
And you didn't kill Sotha Sil at all. Almalexia killed him after she lost her mind.
Wrong, ZOS says it takes place after oblivion and before skyrim. Plus if it takes place before morro wind that means that the is at least one dwarf left alive who could have easily shown people how to make the metal.
No, they didnt.
The year is 2E 582.
The Nerevarine happened in 3E 427.
This. ESO is WAY before morrowind skyrim and oblivion. your morrowind character great grandparents probs arent even born yet. You must be thinking of the 2 books written one was called the infernal city the other i forget. THEY were between oblivion and skyrim~House Indoril~
Submit to the three, the spirits and thy lords.0 -
nudel✭✭✭✭✭*snip*
Only one book ever mentioned Molag Bal trying to drag Tamriel into his Oblivion plane (which was also never named Coldharbour until ESO came out. Interesting how no scholars mentioned that with tens of thousands of soul-shriven running around).
You got this one point wrong. The book The Doors of Oblivion which appears in both Oblivion and Skyrim mentions the plane Coldharbour.'The sky is on fire,' I heard him say as he moved on to the next realm. 'The ground is sludge, but traversable. I see blackened ruins all around me, like a war was fought here in the distant past. The air is freezing. I cast blooms of warmth all around me, but it still feels like daggers of ice stabbing me in all directions.'
This was Coldharbour, where Molag Bal was Prince. It appeared to Zenas as if it were a future Nirn, under the King of ***, desolate and barren, filled with suffering. I could hear Morian Zenas weep at the images he saw, and shiver at the sight of the Imperial Palace, spattered with blood and excrement.
Sidenote for any lore buffs out there: Morian Zenas and Divayth Fur featured in this book are the same characters from the Racial Motifs books in ESO. A continuation of the story so to speak.
I can agree with your other points however. Just had to point this out since much of the rest of your analysis was accurate.
I did feedback this whole notion of Dwarven Ore and suggested at the time that they could simply rename it and replace it with one of the many assets for Dwemer scrap heaps which appear in every Dwemer ruin. However, I do not agree with the OP that ZOS is "laughing in the face of [their] fanbase". It's an error. They may correct it. They may not. It's not going to make or break my game experience. I'll just train myself to see 'Dwarven Scrap' instead of 'Dwarven Ore' whenever and wherever I encounter it. It is a Role-Playing Game after all and I'm roleplaying the Dwarven Ore away.0 -
Jadakin✭✭✭What if Dwarven Ore is just a name attributed to a metal that has since been redefined as something else in the days of Skyrim? Things in the past have constantly been redefined in the future as something else, especially when more information is found out about it.
Also, just because something is written in a book or letter does not mean it's the truth. This goes for ESO, but it also goes for Skyrim as well.
Stop looking for inconsistencies and start taking it in as a whole. Real life is full of contradictions about our past, why should Tamriel be any different?0 -
aipex8_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Also, just because something is written in a book or letter does not mean it's the truth. This goes for ESO, but it also goes for Skyrim as well.
Stop looking for inconsistencies and start taking it in as a whole. Real life is full of contradictions about our past, why should Tamriel be any different?
This is actually why I love TES lore, because it's written in books by fallible characters, you know, kind of like real history. There are contradictions and inconsistencies and it actually makes it feel more real.
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Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭caelumpanache wrote: »I think it's the same reason we have things like French Fries.
Or guinea pigs.
It is a pretty good reason, I just wish a npc would say something about it.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.0 -
Jadakin✭✭✭caelumpanache wrote: »I think it's the same reason we have things like French Fries.
Or guinea pigs.
It is a pretty good reason, I just wish a npc would say something about it.
I read a book in ESO that mentions about the erroneous use of the word Demons and it's correlation to being attributed to Daedras. It basically says that the term Demon is slang to refer to Daedra incorrectly by those that mistranslated old text.0 -
Catdrexion✭✭✭aipex8_ESO wrote: »Also, just because something is written in a book or letter does not mean it's the truth. This goes for ESO, but it also goes for Skyrim as well.
Stop looking for inconsistencies and start taking it in as a whole. Real life is full of contradictions about our past, why should Tamriel be any different?
This is actually why I love TES lore, because it's written in books by fallible characters, you know, kind of like real history. There are contradictions and inconsistencies and it actually makes it feel more real.
I see this excuse all the time when lore inconsistencies come up, this is not a blanket statement you can throw out when there are massive lore errors. The inconsistencies in lore have always related to the unprovable aspects of it like the gods and the nature of existence, not something you can easily find out by taking a stroll into the wilderness.0 -
Zakua✭✭✭I read all 3 pages here...While I am not a lore guru in the slightest I really enjoyed reading all this info and OMGWTH I can't believe you guys walk around with all of this info in your head lol. I mean don't take it the wrong way, it is impressive.
As suggested prior, Seems they could just change the name of the ore node and make everyone happy.
I'd of much liked a Motif instead.0 -
Lynx7386✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chances are the ore we see is just named dwarven ore because it's physical appearances once forged resemble the metal used in dwarven architecture very closely. It may not be the same actual metal, it's just something that looks similar.PS4 / NA
M'asad - Khajiit Nightblade - Healer
Pakhet - Khajiit Dragonknight - Tank
Raksha - Khajiit Sorcerer - Stamina DPS
Bastet - Khajiit Templar - Healer
Leonin - Khajiit Warden - Tank0 -
M'aiq told me that the Psijic Order made all the Dwarven Ore disappear 42 years from now and erased every trace of it's current existence from Tamriel.Catdrexion wrote: »From Dwarves v1, A book written in the fourth Era. So if 1,000 years pass from this game to Skyrim and they still say they have no idea how Dwarves made their metal, how is it that we are finding green rocks just lying around everywhere?
But then again, M'aiq shouldn't be in ESO either ...
Not true. There is a specific are that you can find a little shrine where NPC's have laid down jewels and stuff over the years. At one of these you will find either a letter or inscribed intractable item (don't remember which) where it talks about M'aiq addressing M'aiq in a father to son way. Play this into it and it explains the M'aiq is more of a family name, and lying a family trait, rather than just one person.0
