A reflection on MMORPG difficulty and risk.

zaria

Korusus wrote: »

Doshia's entire difficulty was wrapped up in the fact that she was a trick fight. She stops being difficult when you figure out the trick. The problem is that at that level not everyone is used to the controls or using their best build (and can't respec) at level 8, especially players new to MMOs (or action MMOs) and her trick was a little intense.

In a way you're getting exactly what you're asking for OP. Now instead of Doshia being this huge brick wall for a lot of players, it will instead be a way to be introduced to the idea of trick boss fights (assuming they tune it correctly and still require you to figure out the trick in some way, as from my understanding being that they're simply slowing down the rate that the bubbles spawn)

This, note that she is one of the first bosses you will face, you are likely to face here before getting many of friends in game to ask and anyway you had to do her alone.

During beta I assumed she was an group boss and that an bug stopped us from grouping.

Now having an npc follower or even more fun having the questgiver tell you about the ablilites would solve the issue.

jimredtalon

zaria wrote: »

Korusus wrote: »

Doshia's entire difficulty was wrapped up in the fact that she was a trick fight. She stops being difficult when you figure out the trick. The problem is that at that level not everyone is used to the controls or using their best build (and can't respec) at level 8, especially players new to MMOs (or action MMOs) and her trick was a little intense.

In a way you're getting exactly what you're asking for OP. Now instead of Doshia being this huge brick wall for a lot of players, it will instead be a way to be introduced to the idea of trick boss fights (assuming they tune it correctly and still require you to figure out the trick in some way, as from my understanding being that they're simply slowing down the rate that the bubbles spawn)

This, note that she is one of the first bosses you will face, you are likely to face here before getting many of friends in game to ask and anyway you had to do her alone.

During beta I assumed she was an group boss and that an bug stopped us from grouping.

Now having an npc follower or even more fun having the questgiver tell you about the ablilites would solve the issue.

I will man up here and admit I had trouble with this boss for a few hours. I did not notice the orbs since I had my brightness too low and being color blind never helps. I thought it was fine though since all I had to do was Google the dungeon name and voila instant guide on how to beat the boss and this was very early, I think before even the official release. Why couldn't others do this. Also I did a very bad job in my first characters first few skill choices which I have since remedied.

UnknownXV

HarryWolfe wrote: »

I understand the concerns, but I still find myself cringing at these threads.

People who play MMO's are no longer males in the 13-26 year old range exclusively. We aren't all super competitive testosterone driven mating rights machines.

I am 23, but this is not about ego or competition for me. Yes, that is involved usually, but is not the critical element. Keep in mind here folks, I am not suggesting that ESO be converted to a dark souls level difficulty game with full loot and open world PvP. This game was not designed around that. That is okay. The comment was more of a general reflection of the state of MMORPGs as a whole.

I know PLENTY of gamers in the 50+ bracket, and I meet more all the time.
I've also met my fair share of handicapped and disabled players.

You can look at them as outliers, but excluding them from content is still discrimination.

Why do you speak as if older players would dislike a more meaningful and impactful game? I'm only 23 but I can tell you this, the older I get, the less I can tolerate pointless games. The easier they are, the less meaning it holds for me.

OKAY.. i got that out of my system
I had to think about the fight as i seriously had trouble remembering if i'd done it. I still don't remember it and I guess i'll have to look out for it on an alt. My point here is that if it was a tough fight i'd have remembered it! So yes i hear you on that mark.

Back to my rant though, and I have to say that a game has to be enjoyable, Many of the games you list in the OP had hard modes or group content that required a level of player sophistication not present in the majority of its other content. That to me is good game balance.
I might also point out that SINGLE PLAYER games are balanced against themselves. Dark Souls' popularity is based upon its difficulty, something that could never be said of the Elder Scrolls franchise, whose popularity is based in its massive explorable landscapes and custom player character development.

I don't think difficulty has to have precedent within its franchise. It can be a breath of fresh air when you expect a cakewalk and find resistance. To be honest, ESO does offer a bit more resistance than I thought it would, but relative to my MMO experience, it still feels far too easy. On the level of how ESO was designed, there are only two things that could be changed to make it harder. Stronger bosses (as you quest) and far longer leveling times for crafting.

As someone who grew up with an electronic nanny even way back in the late 70's I am intimate with fading reaction times, older gaming buddies I know tend to love games no less, but their playstyle is based on the knowledge of fallibility, a concept alien to most younger people. It's not all about you

That is fine. I'm not saying a game as I described here would appeal to everyone. It obviously would not. Again, it's more of a general reflection of things, hypothetically breaking down where we are with the current offering of major MMOs. There are dozens of large scale, high budget MMORPGs that appeal to the masses, with easy leveling, quests, and even end-game content. There is only 1 that appeals to hardcore players. Do you not see how significant a disparity that is? It can make players like me a bit disgruntled, because we simply are not getting what we want.

CadenceRowan

UnknownXV wrote: »

Is it an appeal by Zenimax to appeal to a broader range of players who otherwise are not accustomed to a game refusing to hold their hand? Or, did they truly believe it was unfair or imbalanced relative to its level?

It seems to me that appealing to a wide range of players is fairly important if you want to sell games.

You are an experienced player with a high level of skill. Congrats. I, on the other hand, am pretty new at this and I'd like to be able to play too.

This is my second game experience (I played GW2) and there is a steep learning curve for the inexperienced. I'm doing my best, but the learning takes time.

I've read threads about the whole Doshia thing and I am one of those who had a hard time with it. I play a Sorcerer and I kept smashing those little bubbles and barely having any time to deal actual damage to Doshia before there were more bubbles to deal with. And I kept dying and having to start all over again. I never even felt like I was getting close to beating it.. That's not really much fun. A game should be fun, right?

My husband, who has been gaming forever-ish is playing a Templar. I watched him smash one set of bubbles, and then he was able to just beat on Doshia with no more bubbles to worry about. It was a pretty short battle for him.

He took over with my Sorcerer, and had pretty much the same experience I did - lots of bubble smashing. He did beat it, but it took a lot longer. To me, that seems a little uneven (actually, more than a little).

So yeah, experience has something to do with it, but so does your character, your choice of weapons, your abilities. I'm quite positive that I don't have the optimal build - because I'm still trying to figure out what works.

I expect this will fall on deaf ears, as I have seen many others make the same point/share similar anecdotes. Most of the people bothered by the adjustment to Doshia don't seem interested in hearing that other people had different experiences.

I'm guessing that Zenimax is making the best decisions it can to keep the game challenging, but also accessible. Overall, the game is a lot of fun. The continued harping mostly seems like nitpicking. The game is for everyone, and we all have to share our toys.

Audigy

I understand the concerns, but I still find myself cringing at these threads.

People who play MMO's are no longer males in the 13-26 year old range exclusively. We aren't all super competitive testosterone driven mating rights machines.

I know PLENTY of gamers in the 50+ bracket, and I meet more all the time.
I've also met my fair share of handicapped and disabled players.

You can look at them as outliers, but excluding them from content is still discrimination.

From a 15 year MMO experience I have to tell you that never players were excluded from content due the difficulty of it, but due other players not allowing them to do it.

Look at wow, the most popular MMO at this time. It doesn't matter if you are a good player, if you have a high IQ, if you are handicapped, old or young - it just doesn't matter a bit if it comes to how you are allowed to play.

The community at WOW is using addons to determine if someone is worthy enough to spend time with them in a dungeon or raid. That's all.

When Cata was out, I did many 5 men heroics right at release and there were people in these groups who were slower, who were older, who were less skilled than I was - but we still never had any issue´s with beating the dungeon.

About a half year later, those dungeons were dumped down and guess what - if you now didn't had super Gearscore´s, DPS, HPS or TPS, then you were instantly kicked from the dungeon.


Difficult content isn't the problem, its people who want to boss others around. Who want to decide who is allowed to see what in an MMO and those are the reasons why wow and many MMO´s are bleeding subs and why many stop doing group content.

the1andonlypzb14_ESO

All I really have to say is that I love the referencing to Runescape. In all my years of playing MMO's I've still yet to find one that grasped me and gave me such a rewarding sense of accomplishment like that game did. For something like 7 years I sat hours at my computer - grinding through the game - trying to figure out every little inch of information that was available to players.

The hi-scores used to be such an amazing accomplishment. Unfortunately, today the hi-scores are filled with droves of people with the maximum skill point total - saying to me, that even Runescape has become too easy.

I'd love to see the day of increasingly difficult MMO's return - but I won't hold my breath. That being said, I have had my difficulties in TESO ... it's not as if it's sooo easy that you never die. I've died plenty ...

Even last night, I tried running the public dungeon in Greenshade (something Falls) solo ... and quickly discovered I'd need to call on the aid of my friends, guild mates or fellow soloers in the dungeon in order to get through it.

I think the group dungeons themselves present a pretty good challenge if you're within the level range. They can be a tad easy if you're over-leveled... but that's to be expected.

crush83

People don't like to fail. I mean look at sports in schools these days. Everyone gets a participation award. There are no losers or winners. No score kept...

Because people get their feelings hurt when they fail. When people get their feelings hurt, they act irrationally.

So, Nerd Joe dies to Doshia on his first attempt, after standing directly in front of her the entire time trying to bash her to death, completely oblivious to the obvious AOE queues on the ground.

Nerd Joe then declares game too hard, threatens to quit, unsubscribe, tell all his buddies to quit, etc.

Suits are like "wtf just make it easier we need money for our yachts man"

Game over.

jesterstear

Sorry for the rage post, but just died 3x in a row trying to do a quest...

surely the point of the game is you are not supposed to get your character killed because in reality, there are no rezurrections and if you die , delete them and start over at level 1. so if you want to leave us sweating away through every quest then fine delevel us every time we get defeated but don't subject us to watching our character get murdered over and over just doing damn landscape mobs

UnknownXV

Cadence, keep in mind that the more you try to appeal to a broad spectrum of player, the more.. diluted the singular elements that are appealing to each player become. I think ESO is leaning slightly more on the harder side now for combat, but a lot of the basic mechanics scream out in convenience to me. Instant travel for very little cost? Far too easy. Leveling speed? Way too fast. Quantity of gear loot? Very high.

Heck, you can even recruit hirelings that send you materials for free every day, with a chance not only to gain epic quality upgrade materials, but even legendary. Even if the chance is small, you're taking no risk and imputing absolutely no effort for this. It makes the notion of "epic" or "legendary" laughable.

CerbX

Malvokian wrote: »

If I can't win every fight then you discriminate against me Zenimax!

Damn, if you can't beat a fight then go level up and come back. Don't cry and whine about it.

"If I can't afford a new rolls royce, there is socioeconomic equality!"

RookBorn

I agree, the reward of beating something you spent hours on is incredible. This is why I can't wait to get to veteran/Adventure Zone when it comes out. I want that difficulty.