Argonians, Argonians everywhere.

Toranaga

Once upon a fine day, a decision arose in my head, I came to the conclusion that I was to make a Dunmer character, a nightblade specifically. Fast forward I few hours and I'm upon a boat, leaving an Island, an Island I experienced as "A good wholesome Nord Island." Nord culture and pride were everywhere, as expected. We were headed towards Morrowind, and there I expected Dark Elf jargon, political intrigue, racism for the race most notorious for it in Tamriel, and most of all, tons and tons of pride. I was only slightly disturbed when I heard Captain Rana speak so admiringly about the other races of Tamriel, speaking in an indifferent and textbookish tone when the subject was brought to her own people.

I should have taken that as a warning sign, because when we landed in Morrowind, the first thing I saw was something entirely unexpected and alien, an exclusively Argonian village, no Nords and certainly no Dunmer. The story behind it was that the Great Houses gifted that patch of land to the people who were their slaves a few years prior, understandable, since they were dealing with a newly freed race of people whom they hated, what better way to keep them out of Dunmer cities. So still I persevered, even though I had met few Dunmer, even in Morrowind, none of them seemed to have a high opinion of themselves or their race. On the other hand, Argonians seemed to openly criticize and make jeers at the Dark Elves. "They say the daggers are coming, a few years ago it was the Dark Elves are coming"

As I entered Davon's watch, I Nord and Argonian merchants, an Argonian fighters guild master, and worst of all, every bureaucrat, leader and noble Dunmer I've seen had nothing but good things to say about the Argonians.

What is up Zenimax? In the Auridon, a lot of quests were focused on the "Veiled Heritance", a racist and isolationist group that seeks an end to the Dominion and an age of Altmer isolationism, as such was before. In the Daggerfall covenant, the quest line of Betnikh focuses on an Island conquered from Bretons by Orcs, there's quite obviously a huge tension in contact between the two races, and the savagery of the Orcs, as well as the repeated burnings of Orsinium are mentioned aplenty. Though in the Ebonheart pact, the Alliance in which these tensions would be at a MAX level, everything is all smiles with the Dunmer, nevermind the fact that they're forced to be in a union between a race of Humans that have invaded and occupied Morrowind many times, and an a race that had been slaved and exploited over centuries. The Temple Ordinators look like they're wearing Easter Islands heads over their faces, and no longer refer to me, or anyone else as "Scum" or "Outlander". There are no N'wahs, and one of the most unrealistic things, the pact is ruled by a HUMAN king, who wasn't even supposed to be a King in the firstplace, a Human with a short life compared to not 1, not 2, but 3 living immortal gods that could rule the Ebonheart pact in the most successful way possible.

Why?

rvr1982

Cause Argonians lay eggs. Tons of eggs.

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO

Guess you haven't gotten the quest where you can choose to help murder a former Dunmer slaveowner yet. There are racial tensions between the dunmer and the argonians. Most of the Dunmer officials you meet though are just that officials that are dedicated to the pact. It's fairly consistent in it's logic.

DamienMovado

I haven't gotten very far in the Ebonheart Pact yet but, I just did the quest in Stonefalls where a Dunmers daughter was missing and he immediately and unjustly blamed it on the Argonians (a female specifically) just because of his racism. When you find the lady Lizard she explains that she doesn't hate the Dark Elfs because the Dark Elfs will do what the Dark Elfs do what is natural to them (be simple minded racists). Even when you find his daughter with the help of the wrongly accused and expose the truth to the father, he seems appreciative but still doesn't seem to change his opinion towards them or her.

I think they have done a great job at portraying a diverse group of people with a semi-realistic array of personalities.

Kaiem

As you get further into the pact zones you'll come across plenty of racist dunmer and argonians who can't forgive them for the past. As people have said a lot of those who aren't like those are those working within the pact framework who would obviously think this way. It's much more authentic to have a range of opinions and personalities.

Toranaga

DamienMovado wrote: »

When you find the lady Lizard she explains that she doesn't hate the Dark Elfs because the Dark Elfs will do what the Dark Elfs do what is natural to them (be simple minded racists).

Elves*

Technically, the Dark Elves are superior in almost every bit of way in culture. They possess architecture beyond mud huts, they possess art beyond wall paintings, they actually have names instead of "Runs-in-trees" or "Fetches-Glitter". Their armor is primitive in look and design, in sharp contrast to the Dunmer's use of their Elven heritage to draw from High Elf design and create a new, sleek design that accentuates Morrowind and its people in a sophisticated light. They're slavers because they know that the Argonians are weak, and they are strong. To call them simple minded is nothing but bitter ignorance.

Sakiri

Those Easter Island hats are the face of the Indoril Nerevar.

Temple Ordinators are traditionally House Indoril as well.

Captainkrunch96

In Mournnhold there is a quest where Argonians offer to have you help kill a former Dunmer slave owner, but you can instead help the slave owner kill the Argonians, and she has some..."nice" things to say about them after.

EDIT: eq2imora, I think he knows that, but there helmets are so bad compared to morrowind, and I will admit I do miss being called scum. Also, it seems non pact officials(citizens/lesser nobility) are the ones with racial tension against each other.

Jitterbug

and the swim speed... by the eight the swim speed!

MorHawk

Toranaga wrote: »

Technically, the Dark Elves are superior in almost every bit of way in culture. They possess architecture beyond mud huts, they possess art beyond wall paintings, they actually have names instead of "Runs-in-trees" or "Fetches-Glitter". Their armor is primitive in look and design, in sharp contrast to the Dunmer's use of their Elven heritage to draw from High Elf design and create a new, sleek design that accentuates Morrowind and its people in a sophisticated light. They're slavers because they know that the Argonians are weak, and they are strong. To call them simple minded is nothing but bitter ignorance.

RPing the whole 'racist elven supremacy' thing is disturbing enough in-game, but on the forums too? Thankyou, again, for ably demonstrating why I chose DC.

madterryk

its not just the dark elves though- some ald. dom. elf went around eating unhatched argonian eggs out in the shadowfens. He now has an argonian name- Sleeps With Fishes.

Sakiri

madterryk wrote: »

its not just the dark elves though- some ald. dom. elf went around eating unhatched argonian eggs out in the shadowfens. He now has an argonian name- Sleeps With Fishes.

Yeah that was gross.

Toranaga

MorHawk wrote: »

RPing the whole 'racist elven supremacy' thing is disturbing enough in-game, but on the forums too? Thankyou, again, for ably demonstrating why I chose DC.

You can't really deny that some races > other races, at least in TES, TES of all things! Orcs are better at Heavy armor and physical activity than Bretons, Bretons are better than Orcs intellectually, magically, and culturally. Please do not spread your stupid liberal indoctrination in a video game franchise almost ALWAYS centered around the idea of Nationalism, always giving you a choice. Elves are smarter and more intellectually adept than any other race, no Human race ( except Bretons, which even them possess Elven blood ) has ever been known for its intellectual prowess, Bethesda has always painted Khajiit in the light it had always been, they can be scoundrels and drug smugglers, Argonians are depicted as simple people who live in swamps. Bethesda does not try to hide this, they just give the player the choice of pitying the people, no matter the fact that they obviously possess flaws, or scorning them for their inability to rise to a level of other races. No matter what Alliance you choose, you will constantly hear racial tension and guards murmuring racial slurs at another race opposite to them, it just happens, don't tell me censoring The Elder Scrolls is the liberal agenda's next prerogative?

Edit, fixed a few blahs.

feighloghub17_ESO

During the Oblivion Crisis, the only province besides Cyrodil to mount a defense against the daedric forces was Black Marsh; rallied under the An-Xileel political faction. They were so successful that they took the fight into the plane of Oblivion and were beating them on their home turf, forcing the Dremora lieutenants to close their own portals (something done only there). They held their own until the Crisis was over, and the An-Xileel emerged as a dominant political force in Black Marsh. They retook independence of their homeland and even led attacks on the Dunmer to retake their homelands and gain retribution on their former slavers. Things to keep in mind when discussing Argonians.

mercenaryaieb17_ESO

There is a fine line between in-game beliefs (which are subjective and quite supremacist/racist in many cases) and actual facts from lore and history.
One can be tolerated (or get you killed for), and another is just personal bigotry projected onto a game universe. I sure hope you're just taking your RPing too far.
Anyway.


Tamriel races are indeed not even - each is better or worse at some things. But those are trivial differences both in terms of lore culture and game mechanics. NO race is truly superior than any other.

The myth about elven superiority is complete ***. The only thing most elves (especially Altmer) are superior at is their arrogance, inability to empathize and unwillingness to learn from other races and cultures :disagree:

Being slavers does not make them superior - only bigots. To ZOS credit, this bigotry (and underlying ignorance) was brilliantly presented in some EP quests and NPC conversations.

As for Argonians - they have proper names, it's just that the so-called "superior" races of men and mer are usually unable to properly memorize and use those. Which is why many Argonians use common-tongue names.


Argonians also possess a strong culture with deep roots (roots, geddit? haha) and the only military that could kick Daedra forces during Oblivion Crisis.
Meanwhile, all Dunmer could achieve are slaving raids. What was the last proper war they won by themselves, with armies?
Off the top of my head:
The war versus Dwemer was going badly, and ended in a technical victory simply because their opponents did not show up to continue.
The Akaviri invasion was ended by Vivec, not Dunmer armies.
The war against Empire ended in a treaty and subsequent occupation of Morrowind by Empire (both by legion and by spreading culture).
The Oblivion Crisis and later events further proven the inability of Dunmer to live without support from Empire.

But hey, you can still keep your dark skin (which is a sign of punishment, let's not forget :disagree: ), culture mostly inherited from old ages or copied from Empire, three so-called gods who lose their borrowed power with each year, and pride. Yeah, dat pride!


PS I play as Dunmer

Sakiri

Was going to reply with an Ashlander reply but need more coffee first.

ankhor8

Yes. We shall continue to Hatch and Spread across Tamriel until we have a secure base at all valuable corners. We once were more spread out, yet have chosen to emphasis, build and develop our source region of hatching. I have no need to hate the elven, yet it is definitely true that i Honor, appreciate, and Praise my Saxleel Kin.
We are people of the root and touch Everywhere. Eventually this will be more apparent.

AmakarGranaen

I don't care about argonys,
but i have to say dunmer are pretty much idiots,
they don't mind "going ass to ass
with some daedra worshipping ***".

They worship three idiots from which one of them
is one of the most powerful beings by having achieved CHIM,
but because he's a dunmer he doesn't manage to do much good
for his people, only makes *** even worse.

In my mind, even a lizard flapping it's arms in a mud puddle
is a higher form of life.

PrinceBoru

As Dunmer I can tell you that Argonians can smell like a swamp.
Over in Morrowind one lizard I drink with misses home so bad he dabs swamp water behind his ears.
He just likes the smell.

RAGUNAnoOne

I heard they reduced racism in that quest in stonefalls where you give medicine to the dunmer I heard they no longer say "an argonian savage made this" I haven't tried it again yet but I heard it pre nerf

AchlysNox

I agree that it would have been nice to see more Dunmer content. The whole story about the two brothers of strife was nice, but it did feel like every other quest in the Dumner region, I was doing something for an Argonian, babbling about Hist this and Hist that...

... and then I got to Shadowfen.

If I have to hear those same two voice actors rasp the phrase "sun on my scales" at me again, I might actually start to develop sympathies for Dunmer supremacy.

Darlgon

Sigh...



OP was from the month the game launched, a year and a half ago, then this thread was necroed a month ago.. and again today.. YAH...

Alucardo

HOW DO PEOPLE FIND THESE ANCIENT ARTEFACTS?

AchlysNox

Alucardo wrote: »

HOW DO PEOPLE FIND THESE ANCIENT ARTEFACTS?

It was on the first page of this subforum. Not really that hard to find. I guess it speaks to the activity here, if a thread with a month old post being the latest, will show up on the first page.

Darlgon

AchlysNox wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

HOW DO PEOPLE FIND THESE ANCIENT ARTEFACTS?

It was on the first page of this subforum. Not really that hard to find. I guess it speaks to the activity here, if a thread with a month old post being the latest, will show up on the first page.

@AchlysNox

Order in the forum is not determained by the first post, but the most recent.. my post answering yours, will put it to the top again.

Crimsonwolf666

Sakiri wrote: »

Those Easter Island hats are the face of the Indoril Nerevar.

Temple Ordinators are traditionally House Indoril as well.

It is beyond joyful for me when someone else understands that that armor's helmet is based off Nerevar Indoril. Thank you sir

ankhor8

Dryskin dunmer have much hate within them. That maybe why the lack of self people appreciation is absent. Dunmer were rescued by us Saxhleel at the Liberation War, and still want to down play the fact. Much of dunmer society was physically built as a by product of theft and slavery of Saxhleel, so respect and praise should be in high quantity for this period of public slavery abolishment. The tribunal is deceptive even amongst each other. Unwise to follow them. It's still unknown if? Vivec caused the flood with killed his own people in addition to the akaviri. Be Pleased Keshu and Heita-Meen decided not to just attack the telvanni and Dres on the battle field a decade ago. It was the plan at first, yet we are a wise people that know time is cyclical and trust the Hist guidance.
Saxhleel Salute
Kota-Sax-Blood

Korah_Eaglecry

DamienMovado wrote: »

I haven't gotten very far in the Ebonheart Pact yet but, I just did the quest in Stonefalls where a Dunmers daughter was missing and he immediately and unjustly blamed it on the Argonians (a female specifically) just because of his racism. When you find the lady Lizard she explains that she doesn't hate the Dark Elfs because the Dark Elfs will do what the Dark Elfs do what is natural to them (be simple minded racists). Even when you find his daughter with the help of the wrongly accused and expose the truth to the father, he seems appreciative but still doesn't seem to change his opinion towards them or her.

I think they have done a great job at portraying a diverse group of people with a semi-realistic array of personalities.

Theres a handful of these through out the Pacts storyline. But the OP is correct that the EP is a bit whitewashed compared to the other Alliances. The few times you run into the racism, even the painfully obvious but not touched on continued slavery of Argonians in Pact held Shadowfen, its isolated and seems to be almost a non-issue on the larger scale of whats going on with the EP internally.

The slavery of Argonians had only been outlawed in the last 10 years. Theres no way the tension there would have faded already. Either the Argonians, the vast majority, under Pact rule are so brainwashed from their time as slaves or ZOS did a poor job of taking advantage of the opportunity to write up a compelling story of the Pact trying to hold itself together in the face of the three races history.

Bleakrock - Build up to the Daggerfall Invasion.
Bal Foyen - Opening events of the Daggerfall Invasion.
Stonefalls - Dunmer going too far in their quest to fight off the Daggerfall Invasion.
Deshaan - Dunmer fighting between each other over some murderous boy that was sentenced to death for his crimes.
Shadowfen - Best opportunity for some racial tension between Argonians and Dunmer? Wasted on AD Plot.
Eastmarch - More infighting but this time between the Nords.
The Rift - Finally the Worm Cult and the bigger issue of Molag Bal is being tackled by the Pact.

Its unfortunate that the most infighting that has been portrayed has had nothing to do with groups working to drive a wedge between the races. Which would of been a more compelling and believable story for the Pact. Nords have regularly invaded and pillaged the Dunmer (The Thane at Fort Fullhelm). The Dunmer have spent hundreds of years enslaving the Argonians. And in ten years the only issues between the three races? A Dunmer accusing an Argonian of kidnapping his daughter, An Argonian couple asking for you to help murder a woman tied to a family of former slave owners and the occasional Dunmer Slavers camps in Shadowfen.