Please explain the reason for Overcharged softcaps?

Nechristoph

I have played MMOs for years and this is the first game, not even just in the genre of MMOs but all games in general, I've EVER encountered that actually worked against players who wanted to devote themselves to bettering their character. I'm truly having a hard time understanding the logic ..since there really isn't any. I get diminished returns..this concept I understand, when based on ratings and level growth... but caps at such short extent, for example Blue (rare) weapons literally instantly soft cap your dmg output. making any buff skills, enchantments, and such... useless. And since the end game content is 99% of an MMO's holding strength to keep players paying.. What exactly is the point of working hard with ( and this based on the "play it your way" standard that the ES series has always insisted on doing. [since I am playing my way and being chastised for it]) semi-competent players ( good portion of current player base who think cloth armor is tank gear, and Heavy armor is prime for mana regen and healing out put. [which is coded into the game to NOT be so..."Play it your way"??] to complete a raid that is statistically broken against the players (due to soft caps) to FINALLY acquire epic (purple) or even legendary (gold) gear, if the cap was already met buy Blue or in most cases just Green gear. Further still, what exactly is the purpose of crafting skills to make said gear, if all the time and energy of acquiring the materials is again undermined by said soft caps..ultimately rendering all the work to improve and expand upon stats and skill to be....again... useless. Even now it Frustrates me that this is even something that I have to ask about because it just does NOT make sense! no matter how much you want to design a game to be pleasing to any game play style, in the end there is only ever one way to properly build and perform a class design. It's simple math..no matter how you try to reshape the problem the solution will always come out the same...period...IDK I was really hoping..truly!, that when ESO came out it would be the final nail in WoW's coffin I really did..I told people to buy ESO ..it's gonna be the next best thing...though now I'm showing people this in game built subjugating design. then ask them if they are still going to spend the money...again as I write this I still hope foolishly, that maybe it will change because the ES series alone was pure potential. But if this is what I see, and this what is to be expected, then like all my forecasts of the many MMO titles in the past. ESO is doomed to F2P P2W with in 6 months, just as SWtOR, Conan, Rift, Tera, Requiem, Neverwinter, Lotro...and so on and so on...I just don't understand why a company, especially Zenimax and Bethesda WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER!, would do everything in its power to attract a player base only to punish them for "Playing it your way"...it's like shooting yourself in the foot......and so far ...we might be better off!

Supersomething

Paragraphs... use them.

Overcharge is designed to keep some relative balance on characters while they're leveling and at max level. This game is not a single player rpg and as such will not entitle you to the same freedoms you had there.

I'm assuming you aren't that far along in the leveling process. Eventually you get to a point where blues will not always soft cap you, and if they do then work on secondary stats because you do need all of them. I do not think the sky is falling argument is needed because you're running into diminishing returns.

Also you're making arguments about end game when I am fairly certain you are not even close to being there and raids have not even been made yet for this game. Honestly I think you need to calm down a little and seriously.... use paragraphs.

Elvikun

Honestly, it seems bad and drastic at first, but as you progress, it's harder and harder to reach overcharge untill it eventually becomes a non-issue, because even if you think putting everything in one stat could be fun, it actually isn't.

Just take the overcharge (with exception of the first levels you get) as the game telling you "Hey mate, maybe you want to balance your character a little bit?". And the game is not lying to you at that point either.

Vodkaphile

Nechristoph wrote: »

I have played MMOs for years and this is the first game, not even just in the genre of MMOs but all games in general, I've EVER encountered that actually worked against players who wanted to devote themselves to bettering their character. I'm truly having a hard time understanding the logic ..since there really isn't any. I get diminished returns..this concept I understand, when based on ratings and level growth... but caps at such short extent, for example Blue (rare) weapons literally instantly soft cap your dmg output. making any buff skills, enchantments, and such... useless. And since the end game content is 99% of an MMO's holding strength to keep players paying.. What exactly is the point of working hard with ( and this based on the "play it your way" standard that the ES series has always insisted on doing. [since I am playing my way and being chastised for it]) semi-competent players ( good portion of current player base who think cloth armor is tank gear, and Heavy armor is prime for mana regen and healing out put. [which is coded into the game to NOT be so..."Play it your way"??] to complete a raid that is statistically broken against the players (due to soft caps) to FINALLY acquire epic (purple) or even legendary (gold) gear, if the cap was already met buy Blue or in most cases just Green gear. Further still, what exactly is the purpose of crafting skills to make said gear, if all the time and energy of acquiring the materials is again undermined by said soft caps..ultimately rendering all the work to improve and expand upon stats and skill to be....again... useless. Even now it Frustrates me that this is even something that I have to ask about because it just does NOT make sense! no matter how much you want to design a game to be pleasing to any game play style, in the end there is only ever one way to properly build and perform a class design. It's simple math..no matter how you try to reshape the problem the solution will always come out the same...period...IDK I was really hoping..truly!, that when ESO came out it would be the final nail in WoW's coffin I really did..I told people to buy ESO ..it's gonna be the next best thing...though now I'm showing people this in game built subjugating design. then ask them if they are still going to spend the money...again as I write this I still hope foolishly, that maybe it will change because the ES series alone was pure potential. But if this is what I see, and this what is to be expected, then like all my forecasts of the many MMO titles in the past. ESO is doomed to F2P P2W with in 6 months, just as SWtOR, Conan, Rift, Tera, Requiem, Neverwinter, Lotro...and so on and so on...I just don't understand why a company, especially Zenimax and Bethesda WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER!, would do everything in its power to attract a player base only to punish them for "Playing it your way"...it's like shooting yourself in the foot......and so far ...we might be better off!

Formatting is your friend!

Soft caps are there to balance the game, and most MMO's have them. WoW has them, and the breakpoints associated with them are much more perplexing to the average gamer than any other softcap system I've seen. But no, ESO is not the first nor the last MMO that uses soft capping.

Secondly, softcaps do not render anything useless as you suggest, You simply dont get as much of a return for your investment. A Necklace that states "increases Weapon Damage by 5" might only increase it by 2-3 if you're softcapped, but it still goes up. Again, this is for balance.

How boring would the game be if you could just stack a single stat to endless heights? I honestly dont think you understand what you yourself are implying. If softcaps didn't exist, look at how fewer options there would be and how boring the game would become.

Teroh

Tons of games have soft caps and hardcaps. Wow Has hardcaps where once you hit it you receive zero benefit from increasing it, atleast with softcaps you can still push it while receiving some benefit.

Greydog

I like that they make it obvious that you've hit the cap. Where as in other games you have to pay attention and monitor it yourself.

I still don't quite understand why it's needed. Aren't our stats already limited by your level?

kcolasaccob14_ESO

Since you refused to use paragraphs and I'm not into reading massive walls of text this morning, I'm just answering the question in the title.

Most MMO's have soft and hard caps on stats. The reasoning is most likely due to balancing the game and the encounters around a certain set of statistics and power that they expect the majority of players to have when they come across that encounter. Caps keep those numbers in line and also encourage a player to spread their stats out more.

Lazarus_Long

Q: Why soft caps?
A: Game Balance

Edit to make less snarky. Reminder to self: Have coffee before posting.

Sommerlund

I totally agree with the original poster, this stat cap thing is just so dumb !

It totally removes freedom of building up "your" own char. Everyone will be the same lambda char, raising exactly the same way their stats.
I'm lvl 14, and my health regen caps with white and green stuff ?? LMAO !! The guy at Zenimax who got that into the game should get fired !!!

Yes, WoW also has soft caps, but they are way way different, absolutly no comparaison possible.

Such caps just removes all liberty in building up your chars. This alone is a reason for me to go back to wow or d3... others will follow me beleive me...MANY OTHERS !!!.. stupid, just stupid !....

KerinKor

Nechristoph wrote: »

I have played MMOs for years and this is the first game, not even just in the genre of MMOs but all games in general, I've EVER encountered that actually worked against players who wanted to devote themselves to bettering their character

Your complaint about softcaps is entirely contrary to your assertion about your MMO experience because in my experience all MMOs I've played (7 of them so far) had them.

Sommerlund wrote: »

This alone is a reason for me to go back to wow or d3... others will follow me beleive me...MANY OTHERS !!!.. stupid, just stupid !....

'They' probably won't, and neither will you, but if it makes you feel such hyperbole enhances your argument then be my guest.

Your dismissal of WOW's caps as being entirely different is just laughable, they're entirely similar.

Sommerlund

KerinKor wrote: »

'They' probably won't, and neither will you, but if it makes you feel such hyperbole enhances your argument then be my guest.

Your dismissal of WOW's caps as being entirely different is just laughable, they're entirely similar.

How you can say something stupid like that is beyond me, you obviously do not know much about wow.

Compared to the caps i see in teso, wow simply HAS NO CAPS !!!

Can't you not read what i wrote ? I said i'm already caped with white and green stuff. I have a skill that should give me +40% health regen for a certain amount of time, but it don't even give me +20% How can you even dare to compare such caps to other MMORPGS ?

Such caps are a bad idea in general, destroys entierly the freedom. But why don't you answer the initial question from the original poster ? WHY ARE THESE CAPS IN GAME !??? Prouve me why they are needed !

give me exemples ! .. You can't !

reagen_lionel

I do think the overcharge is a bit too low at lower levels. I cant speak for higher levels, But simple green and white equipment overcharges me.

zaria

Teroh wrote: »

Tons of games have soft caps and hardcaps. Wow Has hardcaps where once you hit it you receive zero benefit from increasing it, atleast with softcaps you can still push it while receiving some benefit.

WOW has some hard caps, the rest is solved by balancing the class abilities.

ESO has an very free

Sommerlund wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

'They' probably won't, and neither will you, but if it makes you feel such hyperbole enhances your argument then be my guest.

Your dismissal of WOW's caps as being entirely different is just laughable, they're entirely similar.

How you can say something stupid like that is beyond me, you obviously do not know much about wow.

Compared to the caps i see in teso, wow simply HAS NO CAPS !!!

Can't you not read what i wrote ? I said i'm already caped with white and green stuff. I have a skill that should give me +40% health regen for a certain amount of time, but it don't even give me +20% How can you even dare to compare such caps to other MMORPGS ?

Such caps are a bad idea in general, destroys entierly the freedom. But why don't you answer the initial question from the original poster ? WHY ARE THESE CAPS IN GAME !??? Prouve me why they are needed !

give me exemples ! .. You can't !

First WOW has no need for caps, I remember Hit chance had an cap it was pointless to get over.
WOW is balanced by modifying the class abilities. Then they wanted to buff mages and nerf warriors they changed how the abilities worked.

As class abilities is just an minority of the abilities in ESO this would not be so effective, an minmaxer will anyway do stuff like put all points into magic, having all light armor with +magic enchants or similar who would generate specialized glass cannons with very high damage.

Second as other say the cap limit increases, myself I put all points into health but this is probably an mistake as I have not managed to reach soft cap on magic even with enchants and buff food except a few times.

Its other ways to balance this but they would be more restrictive.

Taeblin

So why are you using this white and green stuff?

The Caps are just hints they whisper "are you sure you wanna do this?"

All the years of WoW, where you just have to google which caps you have to reach to have the dps of imbaness... such thing doenst exist in TESO.
You and just you alone are responsible for your cap and if you want to just reach them or go further on and stack...let's say stamina open end.
But if you stack stamina your health reg or magica reg is verly low.

In my Imagination, in a world without the softcaps, i see the first posts:
"I always die in PVP!!11 my Stamina reg is the best of all...i don't have any health reg and my magica doesn't exist. But ut IF i reach the enemy he just explodes with one strike! But before i reach him i explode because of one hit out of his destruction staff! NERF Destruction staff! Nerf it now or i'll quit and everybody else i know!"

Kolache

Nechristoph wrote: »

...IDK I was really hoping..truly!, that when ESO came out it would be the final nail in WoW's coffin I really did..

Well here's where you went wrong. It has been pretty clear, even if you didn't play betas, that ESO wasn't going to try to beat WoW at being WoW. Your expectations for this game were way off. Believe it or not, this is exactly the game that some people expected and want it to be.

Inversus

ESO is doomed to F2P P2W with in 6 months

Lol I love these stupid predictions on when ESO will go F2P. Not seen any credible evidence for a single one of these predictions - when someone mentions an F2P prediction you know not to take them seriously.

Sommerlund

Wow definitively has no such caps.

Can't you do the difference ? In WoW when you get to 100% hit chances then it's absolutly normal you can't get it higher i don't call this a cap, but simply LOGIC !
In WoW you have of course diminishing return values, like armor value for exemple, but much much less important than here, and with NO CAP !

In ESO you already get caped on things when you have white stuff , lol !?? Obviously something is wrong there.

Caping my health regen when i'm at 14 health per 2 seconds, at lvl 14, is beyond me. Just riddiculous.

Like i said, it just takes freedom for decision from the players. No point in stacking over caps, when the caps are that mean.

And for the guy who said you just have to google what to do with your stats in WoW, i say lol, you don't even have to in ESO, they tell you with those stupid caps... I don't look up stats in google, i love to build up my char myself usually !


Sad really sad, the gameworld is great, and they ruin it with such things.. Other things are helping to ruin it too, like bad combat mechanics, interface...

Cowgomoo

I know it's a wall of text, but reading it before commenting on the material generally helps when it comes to discussions.

As a crafter, it was dismaying to see that at level 10, I was overcharged on damage, stamina, hp regen, stamina regen, and armor all at the same time. Don't get me wrong, soft caps have a place. I simply should not be reaching them by wearing a mixture of white and green gear -- even at low levels.

Vikova

First of all, dear god man use paragraphs.

Second, you are complaining about endgame soft caps when you are level 14. The softcaps move.

Third, you can absolutely "play it your way" if you would like. Nobody is stopping you from trying to create a light armor sorc tank. You will fail, but nobody is stopping you from trying to your little heart's content.

Fourth, this isn't WoW.

Fifth, virtually all MMOs have caps to some extent.

Sixth, it is a good thing they are telling you when you hit the softcap instead of not letting you know you are in diminishing returns.

Seventh, see how annoying it is when I used too many paragraph breaks? Yours was a thousand times worse by not using any.

Shimond

I think people either don't understand what overcharge is or don't understand how other games they've been playing work. Just about all MMOs have diminishing returns - that's all overcharge is, the point at which you start getting less for what you put into it. There's nothing stopping you from continuing to do so, just be aware that you're not getting as much out of that stat as you were before.

Sommerlund

RakeWorm wrote: »

First of all, dear god man use paragraphs.

Second, you are complaining about endgame soft caps when you are level 14. The softcaps move.

Third, you can absolutely "play it your way" if you would like. Nobody is stopping you from trying to create a light armor sorc tank. You will fail, but nobody is stopping you from trying to your little heart's content.

Fourth, this isn't WoW.

Fifth, virtually all MMOs have caps to some extent.

Sixth, it is a good thing they are telling you when you hit the softcap instead of not letting you know you are in diminishing returns.

Seventh, see how annoying it is when I used too many paragraph breaks? Yours was a thousand times worse by not using any.

You are mixing up. I'm the lvl 14, not the original poster...

And i use paragraph, but i had no problems to read the block from the originall poster anyway, he was right on the whole line.

Good you're using "points", so i can answer you better:

To point three: It makes no sense what you say there. You can't create what you want with those caps... and beside, a light armor sorc, is just a "normal" sorc...If you want to tank with that, good...

To point two: Noone said anything about end game. I use facts from the game at lvl 14. No reason the game mechanics should be different in lower lvls.

To point 4: I noticed it, ty...

To point 5: Not such extrem, and totaly stupid caps. Never said caps aren't needed sometimes, just not those caps.

Point 6 makes no sense ..

Alyrn_Grey

Soft caps are not a new thing they have been around in MMO's for about 10 years.

Second they exist to counter Min/Max style of play. You can still min/max but as you boost an area the amount of benefit you get is increasingly small. The idea is that the maximized characters are not that far off from what an average player might be at.

Laerian

reagen_lionel wrote: »

I do think the overcharge is a bit too low at lower levels. I cant speak for higher levels, But simple green and white equipment overcharges me.

This

My Sorcerer got magicka overcharged at lvl 15 with some enchanted whites and greens. Seriously? I thought I could play as I want.

Btw, I hope the dev answer won't be nerfing stats and items to keep it under the softcap.

GamePlayer7

I realize this has already been stated, but WoW and other MMOs have hard and soft caps on stats too. Almost every MMO/ARPG I've ever played has had some sort of diminishing returns on various stats.

Azzuria

Inversus wrote: »

ESO is doomed to F2P P2W with in 6 months

Lol I love these stupid predictions on when ESO will go F2P. Not seen any credible evidence for a single one of these predictions - when someone mentions an F2P prediction you know not to take them seriously.

I think this is the equivilent to Godwin's Law for game forums.

Azzuria

Laerian wrote: »

reagen_lionel wrote: »

I do think the overcharge is a bit too low at lower levels. I cant speak for higher levels, But simple green and white equipment overcharges me.

This

My Sorcerer got magicka overcharged at lvl 15 with some enchanted whites and greens. Seriously? I thought I could play as I want.

Btw, I hope the dev answer won't be nerfing stats and items to keep it under the softcap.

My Orc Templar caster ( War Shaman!! ) got Overcharged by level 8. It made me put stat points into Health instead of just stacking more and more Magicka.
As stated earlier, I believe this is just an attempt to avoid min/max-ing and making -one- build.

ravenhartb14_ESO

"Play how you want (unless you want to play a character in ESO)"

Soft and Hard caps have been around in most MMOs. They are nothing new.
Typically, these occur near endgame when you're stacking an insane amount of a specific stat.
Caps are needed for balance.

But, caps in early development? Seriously?
At lvl 7 I noticed one of my alts was capped for armor. He was a templar, had no +armor perks or enchants and was wearing half greens and half whites. His armor stat became overcharged. Seriously? I now have diminishing returns for a stat because I chose to wear some armor?

Why do we even have enchants, perks, or armor at all for that matter if it's useless at such a low level? What purpose does that serve?

I agree caps are needed. I strongly disagree that caps are needed in early content.

ravenhartb14_ESO

I feel like Zenimax has said "play how you want" (as long as it's the singular and specific way we want you to play).
Not just with regards caps, but with regards several limitations they've placed on their playerbase.

It's almost like Stalin telling his populace they were free.

Alyrn_Grey

ravenhartb14_ESO wrote: »

I feel like Zenimax has said "play how you want" (as long as it's the singular and specific way we want you to play).
Not just with regards caps, but with regards several limitations they've placed on their playerbase.

It's almost like Stalin telling his populace they were free.

Not even remotely true.

It comes down to balancing the game. If you want heavy constant nerfs than advocate getting rid of the soft caps. They will prevent constant heavy nerfs. Because they will prevent the hyper advantage generated by super optimized characters.

The soft caps let the devs balance the game easier and maintain control without constant heavy nerfs to the build of the day.

lordspyder

I just want to say, on my Templar healer, I specced big into magica, and by 10 I was at soft cap, but I said to hell with you game, I'm building my character how I want, and I continued on in the same fashion. By 17 I was no longer hitting soft caps. So to me this is all a bunch of whining over nothing.

Shimond

ravenhartb14_ESO wrote: »

I feel like Zenimax has said "play how you want" (as long as it's the singular and specific way we want you to play).
Not just with regards caps, but with regards several limitations they've placed on their playerbase.

It's almost like Stalin telling his populace they were free.

Really?