Class Masteries

fenn1539

I saw someone mention how you only get class masteries if you have ALL THREE lines of the original class but you get 2 class mastery points which frankly feels like we were going to be able to get 1 point for having 2 skill lines of the original class and that you would get both points for pure classing but that that was changed im guessing which i think is a bad call cause some lines even if they are trying to change all skill lines to be more multi purpose and more useful no matter the role with a morph for each option, some lines are just better than others and being able to for example, grab 2 warden lines and than one of something else for the major brittle passive would be great for tanks letting you grab something extra like draconic power or dark magic or shadow and still get access to a VERY useful buff that massively boosts group DPS that wasnt avalible before while also having the strengths of a different skill line on top of that and so if someone could confirm if it was a change or what the situation is on it, i would appreciate it especially cause if it really is you need to pure class to get masteries, thats gonna *** SUCK hardcore man!

Avran_Sylt

Your use-case is exactly why they need to be locked into pure-class only: it otherwise creates more layers of meta-game min-maxing.

Usureki

I absolutely agree that class masteries should be for pure-classes only. The current form of subclassing was very interesting at first glance, as I could create concepts those are clearly lacking in ESO class system, such as an Elementalist, Pet Master etc. but in reality most of those combinations are just weak as they were not designed to synergize - and also the quite opposite is true, when you just simply disregard the vibe concept you wish to create and focus on just the numbers, if u re dd u need the d :^) and this created those monsters we need to cope with in since this inventions. There's no longer a Templar DD or Sorcerer DD, we have THE meta DD setup and that's it. This is actually less diversity, regardless of the intention of creating more.

Class masteries won't fix this issue, but at least they are an attempt to remedy the situation, even though the class masteries themselves seems to be very poorly balanced and aiming at specific interpretation of classes. I hope they expand and readapt it to a living system, unlike what they've done to the DK, empowering it to the sky and making all other classes feels lame in comparison, and they plan to keep us in this state for 1-2 years, until they take their time to attend to all classes. Meh.

Nevertheless, class masteries are aimed to bring back classes in the game, so no, no more subclassing empowerment please.

Luneca

Don't worry, you're not missing much. Subclassing is still superior because the classes aren't anywhere near balanced and the scribing and general purpose skills are insufficient at bridging the gap, even between buffs.

fenn1539

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Your use-case is exactly why they need to be locked into pure-class only: it otherwise creates more layers of meta-game min-maxing.

well i understand that but i feel like this locks out subclassing from being viable if you ask me given how strong for example, the wardens major brittle proc is which feels like look, frankly getting 2 masteries is still more than viable and if anything, frankly, it has its own strengths compared to subclassing cause you still only get 1 master for your main class with frankly, i think having warden pure class tanks is going to be the HARD meta and i dont want them to remove the major brittle proc to prevent that because than frankly, the rest of the warden masteries wont really be as helpful as that one with i think people keeping 2 of their main class, and 1 subclass ON AVERAGE with the rare cases being the pure classers and the full sub classers who manage to find combos that work in the sublcassers case or make a pure class setup that works should be the fringes.

fenn1539

frankly the problem was just that even just keeping 2 of your main class often BEFORE this was frankly worthless by and large but if EVERY class gets at least 1 mastery like the wardens that can basically become a main stay for a class or at least for a role, i think the game would be all the better for it cause everyone would be encouraged to keep at least 2 of their main class still keeping the flavour of their overall class but getting to still dip their feet in subclassing cause again, i main tank and frankly, the major brittle is WAAAYY to strong to ignore but still i also think it should stick around because i think its a good addition of a new hard to maintain debuff us tanks can apply making us more useful to the team but again, theres ONLY ONE WAY to get it being a pure ice warden which is gonna be the only tank you see in serious content now because of this.

fenn1539

Luneca wrote: »

Don't worry, you're not missing much. Subclassing is still superior because the classes aren't anywhere near balanced and the scribing and general purpose skills are insufficient at bridging the gap, even between buffs.

for tanks its not. major brittle is too useful to ignore especially since the other major debuff you might want being major vulnerability can still be gotten through a monster set FAR more consistantly than major brittle with again, the only way to get major brittle is to go completely all in on ice damage and as much aoe dot ice damage as possible meaning your literally only going to see 1 type of tank in anything more serious than normal dungeons from here on out.

GeneralGrundmann

@fenn1539
Perhaps you might consider using text paragraphs, your walls of text are difficult to read.

On topic:
No. Class masteries only with all three class skill lines.

You limit yourself this way and get some advantages compared to subclassing.

Subclassing will still be superior because you can build better for versatility and/or can also build better specialists.

SolarRune

The problem with Class Masteries at the moment is that from a Tank/Healer perspective, it's destroyed the roles in organised content. Whilst Tanks main job has been to taunt, it's secondary job is buff/debuff, the same is true of healers, yes healing is the primary job but buffs/debuffs has to be part of it - why? Well because game play is mighty boring if you are just healing or just taunting sure thats the entry level to these roles, but the roles need more depth to keep people engaged.

So going from a boring DD setup (where there were equally performing but more difficult alternatives) but where you had different armor setups that were equally viable, we are now left where DDs have lots of viariety but tanks and healers now not only have very few sets (as has been the case for many years now, but even less than before - sets that were "not viable" have not become viable because they are good, they have become viable because you need to wear something) and we have gone massively backwards to the time where one tank "needs" to be a particular class, one healer "needs" to be a particular class etc etc. Its just soooo boring.

I just hope the DPS community enojys the game, because tanks/healers I am talking to are becoming increasingly disengaged with the direction of travel.

CatalinaWineMixer2

SolarRune wrote: »

The problem with Class Masteries at the moment is that from a Tank/Healer perspective, it's destroyed the roles in organised content. Whilst Tanks main job has been to taunt, it's secondary job is buff/debuff, the same is true of healers, yes healing is the primary job but buffs/debuffs has to be part of it - why? Well because game play is mighty boring if you are just healing or just taunting sure thats the entry level to these roles, but the roles need more depth to keep people engaged.

So going from a boring DD setup (where there were equally performing but more difficult alternatives) but where you had different armor setups that were equally viable, we are now left where DDs have lots of viariety but tanks and healers now not only have very few sets (as has been the case for many years now, but even less than before - sets that were "not viable" have not become viable because they are good, they have become viable because you need to wear something) and we have gone massively backwards to the time where one tank "needs" to be a particular class, one healer "needs" to be a particular class etc etc. Its just soooo boring.

I just hope the DPS community enojys the game, because tanks/healers I am talking to are becoming increasingly disengaged with the direction of travel.

They need to institute a dps cap. Damage is completely out of control. Fallout from Subclass is only pouring more salt in the wounds. There are armor caps and every other thing. There is entirely too much dps and the entire game should not be revolving around it. The only reason I find myself tanking more and more (I was always a healer first and foremost) is because so many people quit over Subclass, I dont have a choice anymore. There are already not enough supports in the game to begin with and now they want to eliminate them from PvP too. The catering to Subclass and Dps needs to stop.

GeneralGrundmann

Player oriented (hard) caps are something that, at least out of my experience, enrages almost everytime a lot of players.

I would go another route: increase the damage done from enemies in PvE so that a dedicated healer is necessary to complete veteran and hardmode difficulties.

fenn1539

SolarRune wrote: »

The problem with Class Masteries at the moment is that from a Tank/Healer perspective, it's destroyed the roles in organised content. Whilst Tanks main job has been to taunt, it's secondary job is buff/debuff, the same is true of healers, yes healing is the primary job but buffs/debuffs has to be part of it - why? Well because game play is mighty boring if you are just healing or just taunting sure thats the entry level to these roles, but the roles need more depth to keep people engaged.

So going from a boring DD setup (where there were equally performing but more difficult alternatives) but where you had different armor setups that were equally viable, we are now left where DDs have lots of viariety but tanks and healers now not only have very few sets (as has been the case for many years now, but even less than before - sets that were "not viable" have not become viable because they are good, they have become viable because you need to wear something) and we have gone massively backwards to the time where one tank "needs" to be a particular class, one healer "needs" to be a particular class etc etc. Its just soooo boring.

I just hope the DPS community enojys the game, because tanks/healers I am talking to are becoming increasingly disengaged with the direction of travel.

as a tank main, i was at least lucky my main warden tank toon was a frozen watcher build so i could just retool it to work better in higher level content with vestige difficulty having at least been nice to test hard mode level content and make sure it works the way it needs to most effectively but fr, its like if you WERENT playing a frost warden as your tank class, you now HAVE to because the frozen watcher setup especially gets you 100% uptime minor and major brittle, warden also gets minor and major breach in an AoE letting them run a ranged taunt and a pull instead of needing sword and board or other stuff, and you get minor vul if you run inner fire for a stam ranged taunt that doesnt have to eat your magicka you want and NEED to keep perma uptime on minor and major brittle through frozen watcher. like beyond that i dont play healer but i know the basics they need and can already imagine what class masteries has done to them based on what its done to tanks with the warden line.

fenn1539

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

@fenn1539
Perhaps you might consider using text paragraphs, your walls of text are difficult to read.

On topic:
No. Class masteries only with all three class skill lines.

You limit yourself this way and get some advantages compared to subclassing.

Subclassing will still be superior because you can build better for versatility and/or can also build better specialists.

you realize how limiting that is when there are things in class masteries LIKE MAJOR BRITTLE that frankly arent a option but are MANDATORY with if you ARENT running it, you need to min max damage to hell and back and find the most disgusting op "IMMORTAL TANK" build you can or frankly, your just trolling your team in the same way that not having combat prayer or a pull or a ranged taunt are trolling your team meaning you now have to play a frost warden with some method to ensure 100% uptime on major and minor brittle and using the beetles for major and minor breach and likely running a set for major vulnerability and some other method for minor vulnerability because if your not, you really are just throwing and forcing your team to eat a massive damage deficit cause you wanted to play something even just "slightly" less than pure meta.

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

Player oriented (hard) caps are something that, at least out of my experience, enrages almost everytime a lot of players.

I would go another route: increase the damage done from enemies in PvE so that a dedicated healer is necessary to complete veteran and hardmode difficulties.

thats the thing. the reason people would complain is cause than they would have to learn boss mechanics and they would have to actually PLAY THE GAME which i know is a novel concept but the whole entire point of vestige difficulties allure (i think it failed partially on vestige especially) is the fact that people WOULDNT be steam rolling everything to the point that many builds could literally press one button, go make a microwave burrito, come back, and see they killed 50 enemies with thats the problem DPS has caused and why vestige mode sucks is its built for those DPS players who have min maxed DPS to the point that they do like 150k dps WITHOUT a tank hitting enemies with all the armor shred and damage vulnerability debuffs under the sun or a healer pumping extra buffs up their ass fully giving them every buff in the game with frankly, while i think hard caps shoudlnt be installed and the armor and block mitigation caps should be lightened, i think they all should exist and simply work how fromsoftware has done something similar with their stats having diminishing returns so you can min max but your going to get less and less past a certain point not forcing you but inscentivising you to focus on other things with this would improve things for tanks ESPECIALLY in pvp with pve still getting a lot more benefit with how crazy stupid the damage is right now in the vestige mode, imrpove things for supports in pvp as well as in pve because of what it would force on dps being that dps would FINALLY have to accept things going slow enough when it comes to pve especially that they ACTUALLY have to learn boss mechanics and cant kill a boss before it even finished its first phase 1 mechanics rotation.

Usureki

GeneralGrundmann wrote: »

@fenn1539
Perhaps you might consider using text paragraphs, your walls of text are difficult to read.

+1. You may also could consider using structured sentences and proper punctuation. You might not feel like it, but the way you are forming your text matters

Lugaldu

Class Masteries... it would be nice to get some kind of in-game notification that Class Masteries even exist. The new difficulty options at least indicate that something new has been added, but I logged in yesterday and didn't even look at Class Masteries because I simply forgot that it was a new feature and there's absolutely no information about it in the game.

Luneca

Lugaldu wrote: »

Class Masteries... it would be nice to get some kind of in-game notification that Class Masteries even exist. The new difficulty options at least indicate that something new has been added, but I logged in yesterday and didn't even look at Class Masteries because I simply forgot that it was a new feature and there's absolutely no information about it in the game.

Once you try them and find out how they buff you only in niche scenarios v. a general buff and flexibility with subclassing, don't think you'll be using them for long even if you did try them.

I saw some sorcs running around with "infinite shields" in PvP. I laughed and just fired siege. Two coldharbours and the guy still died.

I guess he will learn soon enough that what he thought was impactful on the PTS doesn't mean a thing in reality.

VoidParticle

fenn1539 wrote: »

I saw someone mention how you only get class masteries if you have ALL THREE lines of the original class but you get 2 class mastery points which frankly feels like we were going to be able to get 1 point for having 2 skill lines of the original class and that you would get both points for pure classing but that that was changed im guessing which i think is a bad call cause some lines even if they are trying to change all skill lines to be more multi purpose and more useful no matter the role with a morph for each option, some lines are just better than others and being able to for example, grab 2 warden lines and than one of something else for the major brittle passive would be great for tanks letting you grab something extra like draconic power or dark magic or shadow and still get access to a VERY useful buff that massively boosts group DPS that wasnt avalible before while also having the strengths of a different skill line on top of that and so if someone could confirm if it was a change or what the situation is on it, i would appreciate it especially cause if it really is you need to pure class to get masteries, thats gonna *** SUCK hardcore man!

I already wish it wasn't all or nothing. It would be really cool if subclassing 1 skill line let me keep 1 mastery passive point.