Let tanks do damage

ImPoStier

ceruulean wrote: »

ImPoStier wrote: »

100%, tanking you need to be on point 100% of the time, if you miss your taunt the run is over, if you run out of stam the run is over, if you lose aggro the run is over, if you get stunned the run could be over, if you roll the wrong thing the run can be over, if you don’t spam your shield and heals at the right times the run is over, you can be a 65 year old woman who games on the weekend and get every trifecta in the game on healer, but on tank you almost need to be gifted at gaming, the skill gap requirements are insane, a dps could have the worst rotation ever but if they just stand where they are supposed to stand they can get all the trifectas

Yep. The biggest difference between other MMOa and ESO is that tanks in other MMOs can play a little more sloppy. I mean, there was skill expression in having a good rotation while tanking big damage, but if I failed to block a heavy attack I would get chunked for 50-90% of my HP, but I would survive, recover and laugh it off as the healer panic heals. In ESO the tank just dies. It feels bad. What is even the point of playing a tank if I'm going to be punished like a squishy DPS? Lol.

Yeah it is weird, there’s some encounters if you stop blocking for a second you just explode, in vlc hm the atros do like 45k light attacks that’s a 1 shot if I’m not blocking, that shouldn’t be a thing imo, I think unblocked heavies is fine to 1 shot, I think they should make keeping aggro easier, make ads and minis not be able to lose taunt this isn’t for me this is for lower damage groups, and make tanks have higher aggro priority so people don’t get sniped by a mini before the 2 tanks can taunt the the 5 minis, or make them target the closest player rather than always the healer

imPDA

ceruulean wrote: »

Yep. The biggest difference between other MMOa and ESO is that tanks in other MMOs can play a little more sloppy. I mean, there was skill expression in having a good rotation while tanking big damage, but if I failed to block a heavy attack I would get chunked for 50-90% of my HP, but I would survive, recover and laugh it off as the healer panic heals. In ESO the tank just dies. It feels bad. What is even the point of playing a tank if I'm going to be punished like a squishy DPS? Lol.

Playing a tank does not matter you can play stupid. There are mechanics killing DPS even in block while for tank it is nothing, but there is mechanics deadly even for tanks and you have to think and act accordingly.

DrMedBorn

I kinda agree, I want to make damage with sword and board because it looks cool. But it should focus on only damage and not beeing able to tank

KulkGin142

I'm going to be totally honest here, tanking is not hard people. There are plenty of information for you to make yourself a good build either with public logs or just ask around in discord servers.
As an exaggeration, you can do a trifecta (DSR and SE) while perma blocking and only using streak to move around. It pains me to say it, but it is true...

And even if you think tanking is hard, HM has the word Hard for a reason... The fact that you need to adapt your behavior dealing with dots/heavy attacks/movement/... for each encounter is part of the fun of the game for me.

I don't want to have a "standard" behavior for each type of attack possible in the game. In particular, every time I see a heavy I need to dodge it. I love the fact that depending on what enemy you face, your actions have consequences. As an example:
- Dodge a heavy in OC Twins, group wipes
- Dodge a heavy in DSR Twins, you enrage adds
- Dodge a heavy on Taleria, you get a nasty dot
- Dodge a heavy on Lucent Mini, group wipes (unless they dodge with you)
- ...

Different ways to deal with mechanics make the game fun.

But this has gone away from what the OP wanted to bring to the game. As I said before in here, I don't really agree with it. It's very rewarding to see better damage on my builds when I swap around survivability with damage options.

ImPoStier

KulkGin142 wrote: »

I'm going to be totally honest here, tanking is not hard people. There are plenty of information for you to make yourself a good build either with public logs or just ask around in discord servers.
As an exaggeration, you can do a trifecta (DSR and SE) while perma blocking and only using streak to move around. It pains me to say it, but it is true...

And even if you think tanking is hard, HM has the word Hard for a reason... The fact that you need to adapt your behavior dealing with dots/heavy attacks/movement/... for each encounter is part of the fun of the game for me.

I don't want to have a "standard" behavior for each type of attack possible in the game. In particular, every time I see a heavy I need to dodge it. I love the fact that depending on what enemy you face, your actions have consequences. As an example:
- Dodge a heavy in OC Twins, group wipes
- Dodge a heavy in DSR Twins, you enrage adds
- Dodge a heavy on Taleria, you get a nasty dot
- Dodge a heavy on Lucent Mini, group wipes (unless they dodge with you)
- ...

Different ways to deal with mechanics make the game fun.

But this has gone away from what the OP wanted to bring to the game. As I said before in here, I don't really agree with it. It's very rewarding to see better damage on my builds when I swap around survivability with damage options.

What’s your YouTube so I can see you perma block reef hm I didn’t know this was possible, I’ve only off tanked it but the main tank takes so much damage I’m still pretty sure you can just stand there and perma block, VSE if you just stand there and perma block without putting the bombs out of group your gonna have a bad time, so I would say you can’t just stand and perma block that trial either, but if you had streak on your bar you could streak to do the mechanic, tbf you did say that, you could probably do second boss with streak as well without moving you make good points actually 😂

And tanking is a lot harder than every other role, it might not be hard hard, eso is a very easy game but you can be a mediocre dps and healer and get every trifecta, but if you aren’t good at tanking it can can take months of progging to get a trifecta

Oblivion_Protocol

ImPoStier wrote: »

And tanking is a lot harder than every other role, it might not be hard hard, eso is a very easy game but you can be a mediocre dps and healer and get every trifecta, but if you aren’t good at tanking it can can take months of progging to get a trifecta

And that, right there, is why fewer people choose tank than DPS or healer. It has nothing to do with damage and everything to do with the intensity of the role and the perceived leadership that comes with it. Even if ZOS boosted tank damage to the levels you say they should ( which they shouldn’t), it doesn’t change the actual difficulty of tanking altogether.

Taking that role is a unique challenge, and one that a lot of people are proud of taking on. Most of us don’t want it to be easier, and don’t care about the “dopamine hit of seeing big numbers”. That’s what the DPS is for. Healers are there to keep people alive. Tanks are there to hold the monsters’ attention and keep them from eating the DPS and the healers.

Kalthea

Tank is frankly the only class that has a "barrier to entry" of sorts, in that a lot of groups expect you to know exactly where to go. I personally don't like skipping mob packs, so I've been ridiculed regularly for not knowing where all of the skip locations are in dungeons when I tank. But I do just fine mechanics wise, even with an off-meta build I just slapped together.

BananaBender

I think tanks should have more damage, but not because of endgame content or scorepushing. The thing which sucks about tanking is how group play focused it is. You can't do anything on your own unless you give up on the "tank" part. If a new player wants to play a tank as their first character, the best tip you can give them is "Use the armory to make yourself into a DD for overland, solo and early group content" because as a full tank the game is absolutely miserable alone. You don't need to be tanky for to farm stuff solo, and because tanks in ESO can't do damage unless they give up on the things which many players associate with being a "tank" in MMOs, such as heavy armor and a shield. I feel like this pushes a lot of players away from the game and the role itself, because the game punishes you for playing the standard "tank" way from the beginning.

My suggestion would be to add a heavy armor buff like this: With 5 heavy pieces or more, when Battle Spirit is not active, gain weapon and spell damage equal to 5% of your armor. (cap at 34000).

This would give tanks more damage and make it possible to play as the generic tank character early on without creeping up the damage too much in endgame. Medium armor would still be better if you want pure damage as a tank, but maybe we would have more people get into tanking.

ImPoStier

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

ImPoStier wrote: »

And tanking is a lot harder than every other role, it might not be hard hard, eso is a very easy game but you can be a mediocre dps and healer and get every trifecta, but if you aren’t good at tanking it can can take months of progging to get a trifecta

And that, right there, is why fewer people choose tank than DPS or healer. It has nothing to do with damage and everything to do with the intensity of the role and the perceived leadership that comes with it. Even if ZOS boosted tank damage to the levels you say they should ( which they shouldn’t), it doesn’t change the actual difficulty of tanking altogether.

Taking that role is a unique challenge, and one that a lot of people are proud of taking on. Most of us don’t want it to be easier, and don’t care about the “dopamine hit of seeing big numbers”. That’s what the DPS is for. Healers are there to keep people alive. Tanks are there to hold the monsters’ attention and keep them from eating the DPS and the healers.

It only gets hard in the hardest hard modes and trifectas, it’s the easiest role in vet dungeons and easier trials, so what you are saying doesn’t make any sense, nobody is walking the path because it’s boring and because it does no damage, people already at the end game and are doing harder content might not wanna try it because it’s too hard, but I don’t think this is common knowledge to people that don’t do hard modes and trifectas, I’ve tanked dungeons for low damage groups it’s not a good time, I’ve felt it all my friends have felt it I’m not wrong, if tanks could do damage, if they could just go about the world on their tank build and kill stuff in a reasonable time you would see more tanks all through the game

ImPoStier

BananaBender wrote: »

I think tanks should have more damage, but not because of endgame content or scorepushing. The thing which sucks about tanking is how group play focused it is. You can't do anything on your own unless you give up on the "tank" part. If a new player wants to play a tank as their first character, the best tip you can give them is "Use the armory to make yourself into a DD for overland, solo and early group content" because as a full tank the game is absolutely miserable alone. You don't need to be tanky for to farm stuff solo, and because tanks in ESO can't do damage unless they give up on the things which many players associate with being a "tank" in MMOs, such as heavy armor and a shield. I feel like this pushes a lot of players away from the game and the role itself, because the game punishes you for playing the standard "tank" way from the beginning.

My suggestion would be to add a heavy armor buff like this: With 5 heavy pieces or more, when Battle Spirit is not active, gain weapon and spell damage equal to 5% of your armor. (cap at 34000).

This would give tanks more damage and make it possible to play as the generic tank character early on without creeping up the damage too much in endgame. Medium armor would still be better if you want pure damage as a tank, but maybe we would have more people get into tanking.

I agree, they should be able to do damage in overland, I think that would get more people playing tank all through the game, and that’s the problem I’m trying to solve, I want there to be more tanks playing the game, if you queue as a dps it should be the same time as a tank, but it’s notc, tank is insta queue, sometimes you have to wait an hour as a dps

ImPoStier

Kalthea wrote: »

Tank is frankly the only class that has a "barrier to entry" of sorts, in that a lot of groups expect you to know exactly where to go. I personally don't like skipping mob packs, so I've been ridiculed regularly for not knowing where all of the skip locations are in dungeons when I tank. But I do just fine mechanics wise, even with an off-meta build I just slapped together.

It depends what you are doing, you need to kill everything for trifectas and that’s all I do so I haven’t experienced that personally, and every group does everything differently, the tank gets to decide how stuff gets done, if you are playing with randoms they can’t expect you to play how their other tank friend plays, how are you supposed to know what they do? Even in trial hard modes different groups do different things

ImPoStier

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

ImPoStier wrote: »

And tanking is a lot harder than every other role, it might not be hard hard, eso is a very easy game but you can be a mediocre dps and healer and get every trifecta, but if you aren’t good at tanking it can can take months of progging to get a trifecta

And that, right there, is why fewer people choose tank than DPS or healer. It has nothing to do with damage and everything to do with the intensity of the role and the perceived leadership that comes with it. Even if ZOS boosted tank damage to the levels you say they should ( which they shouldn’t), it doesn’t change the actual difficulty of tanking altogether.

Taking that role is a unique challenge, and one that a lot of people are proud of taking on. Most of us don’t want it to be easier, and don’t care about the “dopamine hit of seeing big numbers”. That’s what the DPS is for. Healers are there to keep people alive. Tanks are there to hold the monsters’ attention and keep them from eating the DPS and the healers.

There’s no tanks in this game, something needs to be done about, you can’t just say I like the game being terrible for the vast majority of players because I like being one of the only tanks in the game because it makes me feel proud like what?

I’m the only player on console to hit 180k+ this patch I think to get the speed run in a trifecta every dd needs to be hitting the same dps as me and if they can’t you time fail like how it used to be, how about we go back to that? So as a dps I can feel proud

ceruulean

KulkGin142 wrote: »

I'm going to be totally honest here, tanking is not hard people. There are plenty of information for you to make yourself a good build either with public logs or just ask around in discord servers.
As an exaggeration, you can do a trifecta (DSR and SE) while perma blocking and only using streak to move around. It pains me to say it, but it is true...

And even if you think tanking is hard, HM has the word Hard for a reason... The fact that you need to adapt your behavior dealing with dots/heavy attacks/movement/... for each encounter is part of the fun of the game for me.

I don't want to have a "standard" behavior for each type of attack possible in the game. In particular, every time I see a heavy I need to dodge it. I love the fact that depending on what enemy you face, your actions have consequences. As an example:
- Dodge a heavy in OC Twins, group wipes
- Dodge a heavy in DSR Twins, you enrage adds
- Dodge a heavy on Taleria, you get a nasty dot
- Dodge a heavy on Lucent Mini, group wipes (unless they dodge with you)
- ...

Different ways to deal with mechanics make the game fun.

But this has gone away from what the OP wanted to bring to the game. As I said before in here, I don't really agree with it. It's very rewarding to see better damage on my builds when I swap around survivability with damage options.

You're a score pusher so maybe you fnd the role easy but it's not. ESO is one of the more difficult MMOs to play in endgame and the HM reaction times to clear the RG and later trials are magnitudes higher than WOW or FFXIV.

In vOC HM, the tanks get heavy attacked while having to move away from the titans AoE spawning. They roll dodge and the group gets punished, but if they slow down to block they die to titan stomp. The best solution is that ZOS should program safeguards so those two mechanics never happen at the same time. This is a symptom of unfair fight design. If new trials continue to cater to be this punishing in the future, they will end up dead.

I have no problems with fights like vDSR HM the fight design is more clear and quite frankly, more fun in that trial, which is the important factor. We can tell because there's tons and tons of people who want to run vDSR HM but not vOC HM. Blocking the heavy attack is fine because you're mostly stationary and incentivized to stay in the dome. Lucent mini is literally a non problem you just stand and block, there are no mechanics where you have to move immediately. vSE HM Yasela has a set pattern and there's no overlap with a massive insta-kill aoe while she heavy attacks.

KulkGin142

ceruulean wrote: »

You're a score pusher so maybe you fnd the role easy but it's not. ESO is one of the more difficult MMOs to play in endgame and the HM reaction times to clear the RG and later trials are magnitudes higher than WOW or FFXIV.

I can't talk about other MMOs since I have no experience with them. Playing the game for so long might have adjusted the way I see the difficulty of the game ofc, I won't say it didn't. But again, I don't believe the game is hard for a tank.

ceruulean wrote: »

In vOC HM, the tanks get heavy attacked while having to move away from the titans AoE spawning. They roll dodge and the group gets punished, but if they slow down to block they die to titan stomp. The best solution is that ZOS should program safeguards so those two mechanics never happen at the same time. This is a symptom of unfair fight design. If new trials continue to cater to be this punishing in the future, they will end up dead.

Main thing is, Don't panic!
There are plenty of ways to deal with it. Either move asap away from the stomp and take the heavy on the side OR take the heavy on the stomp aoe and dodge right away so you don't instantly die because you don't get healing from the healing debuff. The stomp doesn't do instant damage. Imo, there's plenty of time to adjust your position to deal with the heavy+stomp at the same time.
Ofc you'll miss and die/wipe the group a couple of times until you get it, but that's pretty much every fight of the game.
You wipe and try again. The important part is to learn from mistakes, not to just blame the game for being buggy...

ceruulean wrote: »

I have no problems with fights like vDSR HM the fight design is more clear and quite frankly, more fun in that trial, which is the important factor. We can tell because there's tons and tons of people who want to run vDSR HM but not vOC HM. Blocking the heavy attack is fine because you're mostly stationary and incentivized to stay in the dome. Lucent mini is literally a non problem you just stand and block, there are no mechanics where you have to move immediately. vSE HM Yasela has a set pattern and there's no overlap with a massive insta-kill aoe while she heavy attacks.

There are plenty of reasons to not want to prog OC HMs. Dealing with 2nd boss heavies is nowhere near the top 10

BXR_Lonestar

Sounds like something that would make PVP even more miserable.

Imagine those unkillable block tanks being able to do damage too. Does that sound like a good idea?

Nah. Tanks need to tank.

Healers need to heal.

DPS needs to DPS.

The only thing they've gotten wrong is that DD's heal too well because healing is based on offensive stats. Healing needs its own separate stat so that DD's do damage but can't self heal, and healers can heal, but not do damage. Then there would actually be a need for healers in other content outside of trials and PVP.

o_Primate_o

omg. if you want to do more damage as a tank, equip selfish damage sets and skills at the expense of group damage. you can craft damage sets in heavy or put damage set on tools and jewels. heavy body set - damage set + resistance/taunt/self heal skill and the rest damage skills if you want to do damage as a tank.

the ideal tanks in eso buff group damage - by both buffing players damage and debuffing enemy resistances. minor/major vuln, minor/major breach, crushing enchants, major slayer, etc. contributes to group damage waaaaay more than a tank going for personal damage.