Do Items, Personalities and Polymorphs Bundled with Crown Crates violate Xbox Loot Box Policy?

Avariprivateer

For the last several years some large Crown Crate packages have come with an exclusive Item, Personality or Polymorph each season, which is otherwise unattainable through grinding. (Unless Seal of Endeavour work for these items now?) Does anyone suspect this to be at odds with the Xbox Game Studios' Loot Box Policies? Namely referencing article two as follows:

2 Items in loot boxes can always be earned through play. All items available through paid loot boxes in our games will also be available through unpaid opportunity by gameplay (i.e. grinding).
https://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/for-everyone/responsible-gaming/loot-boxes/

The general disclaimer Zenimax has used from the beginning of this practice, Unfeathered Crates if memory serves, is that these items are not within the Crates themselves but one might argue that still begs the question, whether being part of the purchase may, perchance, still run afoul the wording used by Xbox, as such exclusive items can only be obtained through the purchase of Crown Crates.

Aislinna

Wouldn't this be a question better suited to ask your lawyer?
Our personal opinions really don't matter if it's legal under the law.

Maddjuju

To me, the item coming in the bundle is the same as any other non-crate crown purchase. Since it's not a chance to get that item, it isn't in the gamble pool. It's just like the other items sold in the crown store that aren't in the crates.

valenwood_vegan

I mean it's their own policy (well, that of their corporate parent). Report it to them and see what they say? Doesn't exactly matter what we think.

That said, I generally wish they would lower prices and reduce the FOMO in the crown store. It'll probably never happen.

spartaxoxo

They are a guaranteed item that's not part of the crates and all individual items within the loot boxes are earnable through seals. I think if Microsoft saw it as the same it would have already been addressed

AlienatedGoat

I think it can be argued as such, yes. The bonus items were most certainly another "creative" method to further monetize the game and encourage more monetary spending on crates. There's simply no other reason to include an exclusive item in a $65 crate bundle that can't be obtained otherwise.

raystormusa

The bundled guaranteed item is not obtainable from the loot box itself (crown crate). It does not satisfy the scope of the wording “2. Items in loot boxes can always be earned through play”.

frogthroat

The Xbox loot box policy is because of many EU laws where loot boxes are considered gambling. And that would make the company subject to gambling laws. To go around the law, companies have made the items grindable -- that's why we have the seals of endeavour.

It's not that Xbox is so nice they want players to be able to grind for the stuff in loot boxes. It's because they are complying with the EU laws.

Direct currency-to-product transactions are ok. That is not gambling, that's commerce. I pay crowns, I receive a personality/polymorph is a transaction and not subject to the EU gambling laws. So why would a company volunteer to do anything extra to hinder their profits if they don't have to?

Soarora

Not voting in the poll because 1) I hate the poll options (too many similar options) and 2) this didn’t need to be a poll. But you’re still buying the polymorph directly. One could argue it’s to entice gambling but if you look at crates from the perspective of “get crown gems from them to get what you actually want” then…?

DoofusMax

If you want an attorney's opinion, then consult one licensed in the jurisdiction in question. My personal take is that the polymorphs, personalities, and whatnot with the crown crate bundle are bonus items to incentivize purchase in much the same way that pre-orders often include limited time bonus items. Those may or may not show up later in some sort of "Collectors Bundle," but they're to incentivize the pre-order purchase. There is zero "surprise mechanic" associated with it, though: you buy the 25-crate bundle, you get the bonus item (one per account), but additional 25-crate bundles can still be purchased.

Avariprivateer

Soarora wrote: »

Not voting in the poll because 1) I hate the poll options (too many similar options) and 2) this didn’t need to be a poll. But you’re still buying the polymorph directly. One could argue it’s to entice gambling but if you look at crates from the perspective of “get crown gems from them to get what you actually want” then…?

Yes, I apologise for that. I did however need to differentiate, as at least two of the grounds for voting no were mutually exclusive, i.e. a bonus promo freebie as opposed to multiple goods being sold as a collective lot. It obviously doesn't affect the total sum cost but the logic behind how they are grouped together was still relevant to the underlying question. Normally I would agree with you on the arbitrarity of poll questions but really had no way out of this one without losing nuance. Likewise, there was a complaint about a poll several months ago not including a supposedly obligatory option to obstain on the record... Even if not voting is clearly a form of abstention unto itself.

Otherwise, some folks just yearn for the good old days, when MMOs had straightforward monetization structures and more honest-to-goodness content. I was originally going to buy the Season Pass this year, but between life obligations, a backlog of other really fantastic games in an increasingly crowded market, the overwhelming dread that we won't ever get Clockwork City and Elsweyr-caliber immersive zones again and the fact that I was eagerly looking forward to Blackbird, to which much of Zenimax's senior talent had been moved before most of them got canned, I just decided not to bother with it. The fact that Zenimax hasn't announced a Nintendo version, even one that just shares the Xbox servers, doesn't help dispel the thought that there is no grand plan moving forward. I might end up getting just enough crowns to get another large house, but its clear that ESO has been thrown into the gutter by Microsoft, who have realised that running too many MMOs would eventually cannibalise their own net growth in that particular market. The last unique things of substantial size to come from this game were really Fargrave and to a lesser extant the Scholarium, which was a least nifty and contained the potential for additional expansion. My nightmare scenario would be that going forward the lion's share of the revenue for ESO will be from the store and Crates, becoming just a D-tier whale-farm like Diablo Immoral, which is itself another Microsoft property now. I would go on a rant about the abject abandonment of anti-trust in Federal policy and that we need Teddy and Taft back but that's perhaps a bridge too far for this conversation.

SkaiFaith

I just want to give this input to people who usually ask for this type of items to be earnable in games: think about how many threads we have about in-game items being behind bad RNG - Leads, Plans, etc... Now think about the % chances of getting a Radiant Apex from a crate... Then remember players' reaction at any event (Jubilee 2024 anyone?) in which rare items needed to be grinded.

I am not so sure that we actually want all items being exclusively earnable in-game. Buying can feel like a cheat, or unfair, but when we evaluate how the alternative usually gets implemented... "Shut up and take my money", as they say.

With that said - in this particular case, it would be nice to have the possibility to decide IF to buy them as they are now and IF to buy them with Seals of endeavor. Just... Be ready to fork 16K Seals, because there's no way they hand them out for less. Maybe even more.

TL;DR: When you get offered A and you ask for B instead, don't expect to be given B; Z is more likely.

Avariprivateer

@raystormusa

For the longest time that's also how I interpreted it as well but the more ambiguous wording of the second clause struck me as the door perhaps lying the slightest bit ajar..

2 Items in loot boxes can always be earned through play. All items available through paid loot boxes in our games will also be available through unpaid opportunity by gameplay (i.e. grinding).
"Through" can be a bit more ambiguous in what is being referenced. Through the bounds of the (bought) box itself, which would not include the Item in question. Or through the purchase of the box as the entirety of the transaction, in which case the Item in question becomes fundamentally constituent. My best guess is that it means the former.

Furthermore does Xbox use the term "paid loot boxes", primarily for the purpose of distinguishing them from collectables found exclusively inside freebie promo boxes, i.e. preorder Crates? I would suspect this was the actual intention, to differentiate.

I thought the semantics of this whole thing were at least interesting, caught somewhere in a chaotic Daedric realm twixt logic, legalisms arbitrary, and marketing.

LunaFlora

SkaiFaith wrote: »

I just want to give this input to people who usually ask for this type of items to be earnable in games: think about how many threads we have about in-game items being behind bad RNG - Leads, Plans, etc... Now think about the % chances of getting a Radiant Apex from a crate... Then remember players' reaction at any event (Jubilee 2024 anyone?) in which rare items needed to be grinded.

I am not so sure that we actually want all items being exclusively earnable in-game. Buying can feel like a cheat, or unfair, but when we evaluate how the alternative usually gets implemented... "Shut up and take my money", as they say.

With that said - in this particular case, it would be nice to have the possibility to decide IF to buy them as they are now and IF to buy them with Seals of endeavor. Just... Be ready to fork 16K Seals, because there's no way they hand them out for less. Maybe even more.

TL;DR: When you get offered A and you ask for B instead, don't expect to be given B; Z is more likely.

when the Ragebound crates returned last April/May,
the Shade polymorph was available for 400 gems or 8k Seals of Endeavour just like Apex items.
so that is what these bundle items all likely cost outside of the bundle.

Gabriel_H

"Do Items, Personalities and Polymorphs Bundled with Crown Crates violate Xbox Loot Box Policy?"

The policy is because the EU is moving to regulate loot boxes under gambling laws - as that is what they are. If an item is guaranteed then that is not gambling.

zenonuk

At a pure technical level I suspect not, as they're not "inside" the crates themselves... that said, there is no other route to get these items without buying the crates, and I'm pretty sure a good lawyer in the right country/jurisdiction could argue a case for it to be illegal.

Keep in mind that many countries have different laws - hence why the loot boxes are not available in all countries.

Also keep in mind, that no matter what their policy and EULA says, the rule of law in any given country takes precedence - assuming you're willing to fight the case in court.

In this specific instance, I suspect they're within the boundaries of what's permitted legally and what their policy allows, given that countries where this would violate local laws cannot buy the creates anyway.

Dagoth_Rac

You are buying the Personality or Polymorph as a standard cash shop purchase for 8000 crowns. The 25 crown crates are just bonus loot. Kind of like how tobacco products used to come as bonus loot with baseball cards. You didn't have to smoke the cigarettes to get your baseball card and you don't have to open the crates to get your polymorph. But if you did, and you got addicted, the supplier was not going to be too upset...