Falmer and Dwemer

Kiroux

I know this will probably never happen, or at least not in the near future, but the ability to play as either the Falmer or Dunmer races would be the biggest thing for me. Ever since getting into Elder Scrolls lore I've wanted to be able to make a character from these races, primarily Falmer (before their demise). An expansion with these would probably be the greatest thing I could imagine.

Anyone else share in my sentiment for these two races?

phermitgb

er...you *can* play the Dunmer. I suspect you're talking about some other race.

Falmer, that'd be interesting...you might even see them in some flashback instanced sequences - making them a regularly playable race would, I suppose, depend on the time-period - I don't remember when the Falmer were driven underground, but I suspect it's long before the 2nd era

for reference, Dunmer are in the Ebonheart pact by default (although of course, pre-orders should be able to play them as any alliance), but should be available on the character creation screen unless I'm confusing something...

Kiroux

Ah, yes, sorry, in my excitement I wrote Dunmer instead of Dwemer! Thanks for the correction.

Kendaric

Uhm... I guess you mean Dwemer rather than Dunmer, as Dunmer are a playable race (naturally).

But no, neither Falmer nor Dwemer should be playable, it just wouldn't make sense.

Kiroux

Kendaric wrote: »

Uhm... I guess you mean Dwemer rather than Dunmer, as Dunmer are a playable race (naturally).

But no, neither Falmer nor Dwemer should be playable, it just wouldn't make sense.

That's the beauty of the lore. It's not all there. There is plenty of times where time-travel has been used in the Elder Scrolls lore, hell the Elder Scrolls are supposed to be this limitless scroll of knowledge and power.

Whose to say that there isn't some rift in time from the misuse of the Elder Scrolls that would allow these races to be not a part of the past, but of the present?

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO

I just don't see it. While Dwarves would be nice to have the dwemmer are extinct and have been for a very long time. Falmer while still around are deep underground and are very antagonistic to the other races from what I remember. Having a Falmer playable race would make those Falmer renegades and honestly that copies way too much from a certain awful character from R.A. Salvatore books.

Kendaric

Kiroux wrote: »

Kendaric wrote: »

Uhm... I guess you mean Dwemer rather than Dunmer, as Dunmer are a playable race (naturally).

But no, neither Falmer nor Dwemer should be playable, it just wouldn't make sense.

That's the beauty of the lore. It's not all there. There is plenty of times where time-travel has been used in the Elder Scrolls lore, hell the Elder Scrolls are supposed to be this limitless scroll of knowledge and power.

Whose to say that there isn't some rift in time from the misuse of the Elder Scrolls that would allow these races to be not a part of the past, but of the present?

The problem is that it wouldn't fit in with current lore at all.
If, for some reason, the Dwemer returned during the second era, there would be records about it. ESO is taking place about 1000 years before Alduin's return (Skyrim) and several hundred years before the rise of the Nerevarine (Morrowind) and the Oblivion crisis (Oblivion).
Not to mention that keeping the mystery about why/how they disappeared is what makes the Dwemer interesting. Turning them into a playable race would take all of that away.

Kiroux

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO wrote: »

I just don't see it. While Dwarves would be nice to have the dwemmer are extinct and have been for a very long time. Falmer while still around are deep underground and are very antagonistic to the other races from what I remember. Having a Falmer playable race would make those Falmer renegades and honestly that copies way too much from a certain awful character from R.A. Salvatore books.

You seem to be thinking in terms of Skyrim, which, if you are, then that makes sense. Though ES:O is hundreds of years before any of the events of Skyrim, and in ES:O there is already Chimer present (descendants of the Dunmer). Chimer and Falmer as well as Aeylids and other mer races were all present around the same time in the lore. We visit the past a lot, through memories, rifts, portals, it's not an impossibility.

I speak of Falmer in terms before they were corrupted, not the deformed ones you see in Skyrim. There is actually some quest (DLC I believe) that allows you to see a Snow Elf in full glory. They were residents of Skyrim long before the Nords ever showed up. The only possible issue would be which factions would they belong to?

Which is an entirely different conversation.

Relyk04

Technically, they had Snow elves (Falmer before isolation) in Skyrim, but only two were in existence at that time. I believe they were 'tricked' into enslavement by the Dwemer before they vanished without any sign. Frankly, I'd just like to know how they vanished, but the lore never really says a whole a lot. The lack of information on this would allow the Dev to create a story tied into ESO, but who knows.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Lore wise it isnt possible as the dwemer disappeared what a millenia before and the falmer were already twisted by the dwemer by that time. You are talking early 1st age

Kiroux

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Lore wise it isnt possible as the dwemer disappeared what a millenia before and the falmer were already twisted by the dwemer by that time. You are talking early 1st age

I've touched upon this in my other posts, but what exactly prevents them from not showing up? An expansion that takes place in ancient times where there is a war between the Dwemer and Falmer. Any explanation to what happens to these two races could be expanded upon, done right, it could be an amazing experience, and enhancement upon the current known lore.

Timelines in the Elder Scrolls have never been a taboo subject. You often see into the past, even are a part of it on occasion. Hell, Oblivion isn't exactly normal in terms of how time flows.

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO

Kiroux wrote: »

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO wrote: »

I just don't see it. While Dwarves would be nice to have the dwemmer are extinct and have been for a very long time. Falmer while still around are deep underground and are very antagonistic to the other races from what I remember. Having a Falmer playable race would make those Falmer renegades and honestly that copies way too much from a certain awful character from R.A. Salvatore books.

You seem to be thinking in terms of Skyrim, which, if you are, then that makes sense. Though ES:O is hundreds of years before any of the events of Skyrim, and in ES:O there is already Chimer present (descendants of the Dunmer). Chimer and Falmer as well as Aeylids and other mer races were all present around the same time in the lore. We visit the past a lot, through memories, rifts, portals, it's not an impossibility.

I speak of Falmer in terms before they were corrupted, not the deformed ones you see in Skyrim. There is actually some quest (DLC I believe) that allows you to see a Snow Elf in full glory. They were residents of Skyrim long before the Nords ever showed up. The only possible issue would be which factions would they belong to?

Which is an entirely different conversation.

Actually while I am thinking of some of the things from skyrim, oblivion, and morrowind, I'm thinking of it because you have to think about it. Those games are in the timeline after TESO. That means anything that changes the lore means that these games have "bad" info in them. This creates a logical break in the story of this world and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. These races as playable races are not necessary, and need to be avoided.

phermitgb

yeah, I *personally* would be very bothered to see Dwemer...pretty much at all. One of the staples of the Elder Scrolls experience, is that dwemer are talked about, but never seen - only the evidence that they existed.

I enjoy persistent mysteries; every game drops a couple more insights into the dwemer, while never really *answering* anything, always leaving room for more mysteries to be revealed later.

so, I'd vote no on any dwemer in game, if you're asking. Less concerned about the falmer - truth be told, I'd LOVE to see some of the other hinted at races from the various lore-books (the snake people sound awesome), but I also respect that for whatever reason, the people that have been creating elder scrolls games have opted, it seems, to leave SOME aspects of Tamriel only mentioned, not experienced. Now, I'm all up for *experiencing* some things that haven't come before, but I'm also just as supportive of leaving some unanswered mysteries in the world, so I'll go with the flow for right now...

Kiroux

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO wrote: »

Actually while I am thinking of some of the things from skyrim, oblivion, and morrowind, I'm thinking of it because you have to think about it. Those games are in the timeline after TESO. That means anything that changes the lore means that these games have "bad" info in them. This creates a logical break in the story of this world and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. These races as playable races are not necessary, and need to be avoided.

Yeah, that's why Elder Scrolls Online takes place in the Second Era, and Oblivion, Morrowind in the Third (as well as Daggerfall and Arena), and Skyrim in the Fourth. It's all uncharted territory allowing the lore to not be dictated by the other Elder Scrolls titles so strictly.

Here is the timeline to illustrate it for anyone interested.

2E 583 - Events of Elder Scrolls Online
3E 399 - Events of Arena
3E 405 - Events of Daggerfall
3E 427 - Events of Morrowind
3E 433 - Events of Oblivion
4E 201 - Events of Skyrim

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Yes I could see an akaviri "snake-people" race being added, and it being free of faction like imperial, as the akaviri had just been defeated, and had occupied for what 2 decades?

Kiroux

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Yes I could see an akaviri "snake-people" race being added, and it being free of faction like imperial, as the akaviri had just been defeated, and had occupied for what 2 decades?

I assume you are trying to be facetious in what you are suggesting, mostly because the Akiviri or Akivir were physiologically like any other race of humans.

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO

Kiroux wrote: »

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO wrote: »

Actually while I am thinking of some of the things from skyrim, oblivion, and morrowind, I'm thinking of it because you have to think about it. Those games are in the timeline after TESO. That means anything that changes the lore means that these games have "bad" info in them. This creates a logical break in the story of this world and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary. These races as playable races are not necessary, and need to be avoided.

Yeah, that's why Elder Scrolls Online takes place in the Second Era, and Oblivion, Morrowind in the Third (as well as Daggerfall and Arena), and Skyrim in the Fourth. It's all uncharted territory allowing the lore to not be dictated by the other Elder Scrolls titles so strictly.

Here is the timeline to illustrate it for anyone interested.

2E 583 - Events of Elder Scrolls Online
3E 399 - Events of Arena
3E 405 - Events of Daggerfall
3E 427 - Events of Morrowind
3E 433 - Events of Oblivion
4E 201 - Events of Skyrim

Yes that is about right for the timeline. (I didn't look up the exact dates but it seems right and I have no reason to doubt it.) However you don't seem to understand that to bring back the dwemmer or make falmer playable would invalidate those other games as they are chronologically after. Having these races be playable would mean that those games are in another timeline, another world. Might as well rename the game "The elder scroll like game online" at that point.

Let me ask you this, if a starwars mmo came into existence that was set shortly before the events in episode one, and there was a quest to kill Anakin Skywalker's mother before she gave birth. Wouldn't that invalidate every single star wars movie and make the game no longer star wars? What you are asking for is the same thing.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Kiroux wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Yes I could see an akaviri "snake-people" race being added, and it being free of faction like imperial, as the akaviri had just been defeated, and had occupied for what 2 decades?

I assume you are trying to be facetious in what you are suggesting, mostly because the Akiviri or Akivir were physiologically like any other race of humans.

Um the akaviri were snake people

Kiroux

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Um the akaviri were snake people

Where did you get that from? As far as the lore I've read on the Akivir, nothing mentions them being "snake-people". If anything, they are just humans who resemble something along the lines of the Asian race in the real world.

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO wrote: »

Yes that is about right for the timeline. (I didn't look up the exact dates but it seems right and I have no reason to doubt it.) However you don't seem to understand that to bring back the dwemmer or make falmer playable would invalidate those other games as they are chronologically after. Having these races be playable would mean that those games are in another timeline, another world. Might as well rename the game "The elder scroll like game online" at that point.

Let me ask you this, if a starwars mmo came into existence that was set shortly before the events in episode one, and there was a quest to kill Anakin Skywalker's mother before she gave birth. Wouldn't that invalidate every single star wars movie and make the game no longer star wars? What you are asking for is the same thing.

If Star Wars allowed for time travel to exist, sure, that wouldn't bother me. Thing is, it doesn't, at least to the best of my memory. The Elder Scrolls constantly has you in pocket timelines, universes (like Oblivion), and time isn't really an issue. It wouldn't invalidate the games that came after, specially if this all happened in some sort of event that led our heroes into a more ancient period of time, back to say, the first era?

I'm definitely not advocating for the Falmer and Dwemer races to just be brought into the current time period, I'm following the mentality that we were brought into theirs. In some sort of expansion-like event where there is a reason for our heroes to be warped back to the first era to prevent some sort of catastrophic event from taking place.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tsaesci I may be confusing you by calling them Akaviri, but several lorebooks in the ES games refer to the snake people as Akaviri

Kiroux

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tsaesci I may be confusing you by calling them Akaviri, but several lorebooks in the ES games refer to the snake people as Akaviri

Ah yeah, they hail from Akivir, but are known as Tsaesci. Far as all the ES games I've played the Akiviri were the katana wielding human race that resembled something like our Asian race.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Kiroux wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tsaesci I may be confusing you by calling them Akaviri, but several lorebooks in the ES games refer to the snake people as Akaviri

Ah yeah, they hail from Akivir, but are known as Tsaesci. Far as all the ES games I've played the Akiviri were the katana wielding human race that resembled something like our Asian race.

Nope several lore books in the games refer to them as snake like. I think although its not confirmed they may have had human slaves.

pysgod1978b14_ESO

Which could not happen because that would create a problem in the timeline. What if that event you stopped was the rise of the Dunmer and the ending of the Chimer? Then that would invalidate everything before it. The going back in time has never been to change things but as way to see what happened. The reason things flux in the Elder Scrolls is because of mortals making decisions. And very few mortals read or study the Elder Scrolls. It causes them issues such as the Prophet's blindness or it drives them mad. As for the Akaviri there are actually four separate races. The Tsaesci are the vampiric serpent ones, Tang Mo are the monkey, Kamal are the odd demons, and the Ka Po' Tun are the race similar to the Khajiit. There are humans and the like that lived there and are slaves.

phermitgb

there they are - I couldn't remember the proper race name, but yes, I was thinking of versudeau-shai's snake people, which were *from* akavir, but were apparently called Tsaesci. I'd *love* to see them included at some point, although I won't cry (much) if they never get included.

Kiroux

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Nope several lore books in the games refer to them as snake like. I think although its not confirmed they may have had human slaves.

The dragon that the Blades use as their symbol is derived from the Akiviri, but I honestly don't remember any mention of them being snake-people. Will have to go back and read up on them. Either way, I would not mind adding in the Akiviri, as long as it's done right. Races are always a big part of expansions, not saying this should be their first focus (Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, among other things take priority), but it's an idea.

pysgod1978b14_ESO wrote: »

Which could not happen because that would create a problem in the timeline. What if that event you stopped was the rise of the Dunmer and the ending of the Chimer? Then that would invalidate everything before it. The going back in time has never been to change things but as way to see what happened. The reason things flux in the Elder Scrolls is because of mortals making decisions. And very few mortals read or study the Elder Scrolls. It causes them issues such as the Prophet's blindness or it drives them mad. As for the Akaviri there are actually four separate races. The Tsaesci are the vampiric serpent ones, Tang Mo are the monkey, Kamal are the odd demons, and the Ka Po' Tun are the race similar to the Khajiit. There are humans and the like that lived there and are slaves.

That's a pretty cut and dry event, that would obviously cause troubles with the lore. I'm stating something that would not affect the lore, but enhance it. I don't have any ideas for what the event could be, I'm just asking for its consideration.

Heck, they could add the race in, and the expansion could be able reliving the moments that led to the Fall of the Falmer. That would be great, wouldn't it? There is already (in the Elder Scroll Online specifically) a quest that has you go back in time and (acting as one of the Chimer soldiers) you see the events of the past unfold. The past isn't altered, but you still get to experience it.

What's to stop them from doing something similar with the Falmer or the Dwemer?

phermitgb

Kiroux wrote: »

pysgod1978b14_ESO wrote: »

Which could not happen because that would create a problem in the timeline. What if that event you stopped was the rise of the Dunmer and the ending of the Chimer? Then that would invalidate everything before it. The going back in time has never been to change things but as way to see what happened. The reason things flux in the Elder Scrolls is because of mortals making decisions. And very few mortals read or study the Elder Scrolls. It causes them issues such as the Prophet's blindness or it drives them mad. As for the Akaviri there are actually four separate races. The Tsaesci are the vampiric serpent ones, Tang Mo are the monkey, Kamal are the odd demons, and the Ka Po' Tun are the race similar to the Khajiit. There are humans and the like that lived there and are slaves.

That's a pretty cut and dry event, that would obviously cause troubles with the lore. I'm stating something that would not affect the lore, but enhance it. I don't have any ideas for what the event could be, I'm just asking for its consideration.

Heck, they could add the race in, and the expansion could be able reliving the moments that led to the Fall of the Falmer. That would be great, wouldn't it? There is already (in the Elder Scroll Online specifically) a quest that has you go back in time and (acting as one of the Chimer soldiers) you see the events of the past unfold. The past isn't altered, but you still get to experience it.

What's to stop them from doing something similar with the Falmer or the Dwemer?

see, while I can understand what you want, I know what "I" am saying, and what I think several other people are saying, is that there are certain reveals that we might *not* want. Actually being able to see the Dwemer would be kinda cool...for some people. For other people, though, it would be the unveiling of a magnificent secret that we've been dancing around the edge of for years, and have reached a sort of appreciation for the fact that it may NEVER be solved.

now, that doesn't mean that it *shouldn't* happen at all, but it does mean that it can't be cheap, or perfunctory. Suddenly flooding the servers with dwemer-race characters without some HUGE-WORLD-ALTERING-LORE-EMBRACING reason for it would, quite frankly, drive a decent number of players batshit crazy. Like me. Having some one-shot quest that had you suddenly reliving the life of a dwemer *might* be acceptable, lore-wise, but you have to understand, you HAVE to understand, that revealing the dwemer, even in a flashback, would be a TREMENDOUS breaking of Elder Scrolls Tradition, and would be a WORLD-ALTERING revelation (at this point - not having played arena or daggerfall, it's possible they introduced Dwemer there as relatively routine circumstances, but by THIS point in time, the Dwemer are our Al Capone's Vault, our Jimmy Hoffa's grave), and so any any single throw-away quest would be...unsatisfying, compared to the impact of the event that it was including.

Now, lets say, they release an entire EXPANSION pack, with new zones, a whole slew of new quests, all of which revolve around one particular dwemer device, all of which leads towards one tremendous, climactic encounter with a real (or flashback) of an actual live dwemer, THAT might be closer to something I could stomach. But in general, I want the dwemer to remain shrouded in mystery. I like that mystery, I'm okay with it not being answered, and I suspect there may be a significant number of people who feel similar.

Again, the falmer, I care less about, but I'm sure the argument could easily be extended to any of the prevailing, persistent mysteries of the Elder Scrolls lore.

pysgod1978b14_ESO

Ok, going back and seeing it would be interesting. I have no problems with going back and seeing the past. Affecting it would be a bad idea.

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO

Kiroux wrote: »

snip*
What's to stop them from doing something similar with the Falmer or the Dwemer?

What you are talking about is a quest chain that has us see the past for clarity which is consistent with other events in the elder scrolls. This is a different issue than the lore breaking idea of having them as playable races.

Kiroux

phermitgb wrote: »

see, while I can understand what you want, I know what "I" am saying, and what I think several other people are saying, is that there are certain reveals that we might *not* want. Actually being able to see the Dwemer would be kinda cool...for some people. For other people, though, it would be the unveiling of a magnificent secret that we've been dancing around the edge of for years, and have reached a sort of appreciation for the fact that it may NEVER be solved.

now, that doesn't mean that it *shouldn't* happen at all, but it does mean that it can't be cheap, or perfunctory. Suddenly flooding the servers with dwemer-race characters without some HUGE-WORLD-ALTERING-LORE-EMBRACING reason for it would, quite frankly, drive a decent number of players batshit crazy. Like me. Having some one-shot quest that had you suddenly reliving the life of a dwemer *might* be acceptable, lore-wise, but you have to understand, you HAVE to understand, that revealing the dwemer, even in a flashback, would be a TREMENDOUS breaking of Elder Scrolls Tradition, and would be a WORLD-ALTERING revelation (at this point - not having played arena or daggerfall, it's possible they introduced Dwemer there as relatively routine circumstances, but by THIS point in time, the Dwemer are our Al Capone's Vault, our Jimmy Hoffa's grave), and so any any single throw-away quest would be...unsatisfying, compared to the impact of the event that it was including.

Now, lets say, they release an entire EXPANSION pack, with new zones, a whole slew of new quests, all of which revolve around one particular dwemer device, all of which leads towards one tremendous, climactic encounter with a real (or flashback) of an actual live dwemer, THAT might be closer to something I could stomach. But in general, I want the dwemer to remain shrouded in mystery. I like that mystery, I'm okay with it not being answered, and I suspect there may be a significant number of people who feel similar.

Again, the falmer, I care less about, but I'm sure the argument could easily be extended to any of the prevailing, persistent mysteries of the Elder Scrolls lore.

I can understand what you mean, now. I thought the only reason you were really against the idea was because it could break the lore (which anything can in this, people are already upset about the Siege cinematic trailer they released). It's an entirely different thing as to what you're now coming forth with, though.

Yes, that would definitely be, if anything, breaking the immersion. To some extent I still would love to see this happen, because even with their mystery (at least the Falmer have had some screen time, no known screen time for Dwemer, far as I know) whose to say that this reveal wouldn't just add even more questions, shroud it in a deeper mist?

I think if they get down the instanced zones, you wouldn't be seeing an army of Dwemer/Falmer running around, but that's assuming they go that route, which I'm not entirely sure they are planning to.

If not play as them, playing alongside them, would quell my curiosity.

jacky0002rwb17_ESO

about the lore book... you guys can check http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mysterious_Akavir

from the describtion it seem Akavir is made with multiple beast race (like Khajiit and Argonian). Tsaesci does described to look like a snake.

this also made me wonder can Argonian be a descendent of Tsaesci, and Khajiit are descendent of Ka Po' Tun

Dagoth_Rac

He should not be a playable character, but I think running into Yagrum Bagarn during the 2nd Era would be cool. What was he up to back then? Was he already in the Corprusarium at Tel Fyr?