Healing - Discussion

SneaK · November 14

I know not all skills are the same… and that’s okay. But, in general, is it safe to say Healing scales off of your damage stats???

If that’s a safe assumption, then can we ask WHY?

Healing in ESO is overtuned, and IMO it’s not because heals itself are strong, it’s because there’s no real tradeoff in builds, damage stats are king for 2 of 3 playstyles. The logic of heals being based off of a damage stat has created a large imbalance. DDs are their own healers, it doesn’t really make any sense.

What can we do about that?

How about heals like HtD strictly scale off of Max Mag/Crit, and Vigor scale off of Max Stam/Crit. Why does a damage stat have anything to do with this?

Not saying anything in this game has ever been perfect, but there was a time when you couldn’t get away with being a DD/Healer/Tank with 150% move speed. You had to be selective in your build.

I’m curious, does ZOS even see this as a problem?

Feljax · November 14

I've wished we had a dedicated healing stat in ESO forever. I like playing a healer in PvP and actually feeling useful.

Soarora · November 14

Yes, it’s weapon/spell damage. Your suggestion of max mag for restro and max stam for vigor would never happen as we live in a hybridized ESO.

In my opinion, healers should be able to do damage. The amount of needed heals varies across specific content. I feel like I’ve only heard this discussion in regards to PvP, maybe I’m wrong, but in that case I will repeat the age-old suggestion that ZOS uses battle spirit to change how healing works.

Gabriel_H · November 14

They need to split the stat back out.

Weapon damage should be Offensive Power and affects damage done
Spell damage should be Defensive Power and affects healing done
Damage shields should all scale off Max Health

Major_Mangle · November 14

Gabriel_H wrote: »

They need to split the stat back out.

Weapon damage should be Offensive Power and affects damage done
Spell damage should be Defensive Power and affects healing done
Damage shields should all scale off Max Health

Don´t think doing a complete separation is a good idea, what made ESO good compared to other MMO´s (imo) is that the "holy trinity" (which is a boring and outdated concept if you ask me) wasn´t a requirement but instead an option. Instead of decoupling completely, it could be an interesting change to adjust the ratios on how much you benefit from max stats vs spell-/wpn damage for certain healing skills.

SneaK · November 14

Soarora wrote: »

Yes, it’s weapon/spell damage. Your suggestion of max mag for restro and max stam for vigor would never happen as we live in a hybridized ESO.

In my opinion, healers should be able to do damage. The amount of needed heals varies across specific content. I feel like I’ve only heard this discussion in regards to PvP, maybe I’m wrong, but in that case I will repeat the age-old suggestion that ZOS uses battle spirit to change how healing works.

I guess I just don’t see why it couldn’t be done even with Hybridization (which is awful). Why not scale it from max mag/stam and remove the damage stat scaling. A healer could still push max stats and damage but would not be pushing the health/defense stat in that case. And yes it’s more an issue in PvP although it’s still there in PvE. On the PvE side damage is just way too high in general and next to everything is solo-able because of access to all three is too easy.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

They need to split the stat back out.

Weapon damage should be Offensive Power and affects damage done
Spell damage should be Defensive Power and affects healing done
Damage shields should all scale off Max Health

This doesn’t make sense to me. We still have stam and mag based heals, they just simply shouldn’t be affected by those damage stats. Shields are unique and not apart of this discussion.

Gabriel_H · November 14

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

They need to split the stat back out.

Weapon damage should be Offensive Power and affects damage done
Spell damage should be Defensive Power and affects healing done
Damage shields should all scale off Max Health

Don´t think doing a complete separation is a good idea, what made ESO good compared to other MMO´s (imo) is that the "holy trinity" (which is a boring and outdated concept if you ask me) wasn´t a requirement but instead an option. Instead of decoupling completely, it could be an interesting change to adjust the ratios on how much you benefit from max stats vs spell-/wpn damage for certain healing skills.

As it stands, having them linked causes issues in PvP and makes mid-grade (Veteran) PvE content laughable. That doesn't extend into high-grade (Trial HM) PvE as that requires a focussed healer.

tomofhyrule · November 14

SneaK wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Yes, it’s weapon/spell damage. Your suggestion of max mag for restro and max stam for vigor would never happen as we live in a hybridized ESO.

In my opinion, healers should be able to do damage. The amount of needed heals varies across specific content. I feel like I’ve only heard this discussion in regards to PvP, maybe I’m wrong, but in that case I will repeat the age-old suggestion that ZOS uses battle spirit to change how healing works.

I guess I just don’t see why it couldn’t be done even with Hybridization (which is awful). Why not scale it from max mag/stam and remove the damage stat scaling. A healer could still push max stats and damage but would not be pushing the health/defense stat in that case. And yes it’s more an issue in PvP although it’s still there in PvE. On the PvE side damage is just way too high in general and next to everything is solo-able because of access to all three is too easy.

iirc, that's what it was before that made it scale with damage.

Coincidentally, it was about the time they made healing scale with damage that the number of complaints about healing simultaneously being too strong and healers being unnecessary in content since DDs could heal themselves went way up...

SneaK · November 14

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Yes, it’s weapon/spell damage. Your suggestion of max mag for restro and max stam for vigor would never happen as we live in a hybridized ESO.

In my opinion, healers should be able to do damage. The amount of needed heals varies across specific content. I feel like I’ve only heard this discussion in regards to PvP, maybe I’m wrong, but in that case I will repeat the age-old suggestion that ZOS uses battle spirit to change how healing works.

I guess I just don’t see why it couldn’t be done even with Hybridization (which is awful). Why not scale it from max mag/stam and remove the damage stat scaling. A healer could still push max stats and damage but would not be pushing the health/defense stat in that case. And yes it’s more an issue in PvP although it’s still there in PvE. On the PvE side damage is just way too high in general and next to everything is solo-able because of access to all three is too easy.

iirc, that's what it was before that made it scale with damage.

Coincidentally, it was about the time they made healing scale with damage that the number of complaints about healing simultaneously being too strong and healers being unnecessary in content since DDs could heal themselves went way up...

Well we’re still there, and it’s only gotten worse with time.

I’d assume the comment about making it scale with damage was because max stats are tied into damage too(?)..

If that is the case, removing the damage factor would remove the double dipping of max stats which would be good.

YandereGirlfriend · November 14

Absolutely.

This is a change that needs to have been made ten years ago. But better late than never!

Insert here the old meme that High Elves are better healers than Argonians due to their Weapon Damage passive even though Argonians are intended to be the main "healing" race based upon their racial passives. It's just that Healing Done is a third-rate stack to stack for actually healing, which is simply comical because it is good for literally nothing else.

Game systems are interesting when they involve discrete choices but in ESO there is zero actual tension between "healing vs. damage" because you increase both optimally using the exact same stats. Utterly baffling thought process there.

The easiest change, as has been mentioned, would be to make heals scale only off of their respective resource pools and then to buff the bananas out of Healing Done/Received everywhere that it is itemized in the game. Base heals should be low without heavily investing into Healing Done/Received and Mending. As it should be.

Major_Mangle · November 14

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

They need to split the stat back out.

Weapon damage should be Offensive Power and affects damage done
Spell damage should be Defensive Power and affects healing done
Damage shields should all scale off Max Health

Don´t think doing a complete separation is a good idea, what made ESO good compared to other MMO´s (imo) is that the "holy trinity" (which is a boring and outdated concept if you ask me) wasn´t a requirement but instead an option. Instead of decoupling completely, it could be an interesting change to adjust the ratios on how much you benefit from max stats vs spell-/wpn damage for certain healing skills.

As it stands, having them linked causes issues in PvP and makes mid-grade (Veteran) PvE content laughable. That doesn't extend into high-grade (Trial HM) PvE as that requires a focussed healer.

The reason mid-tier vet content is trivial has zero to do with healing being too strong but rather that damage is too high due to the never ending power creep (that and ZOS adding arcanist to the game as well). Also, having mid grade vet content being the bridge between easier content and vet content where you eventually become strong enough to make it feel trivial isn´t a bad thing. It´s called progression, and in less experienced groups you still want a healer in mid grade vet content. It´s just a question of experience, not "healing/damage being too strong". When you eventually reach endgame (assuming you do), more role specific specializations is then needed. I honestly see zero things that is bad with that tbh.

In PvP the current sytem allows for solo and small-scale to exist. God forbid I need a dedicated healbot with me at all times to PvP, would´ve quit the game a long time ago if that was the case. Unless you want to push everyone to play in large groups or ballgroups (which would have dedicated healers regardless), sure go ahead and turn the current system upside down a decouple the stats.

SneaK · November 14

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

They need to split the stat back out.

Weapon damage should be Offensive Power and affects damage done
Spell damage should be Defensive Power and affects healing done
Damage shields should all scale off Max Health

Don´t think doing a complete separation is a good idea, what made ESO good compared to other MMO´s (imo) is that the "holy trinity" (which is a boring and outdated concept if you ask me) wasn´t a requirement but instead an option. Instead of decoupling completely, it could be an interesting change to adjust the ratios on how much you benefit from max stats vs spell-/wpn damage for certain healing skills.

As it stands, having them linked causes issues in PvP and makes mid-grade (Veteran) PvE content laughable. That doesn't extend into high-grade (Trial HM) PvE as that requires a focussed healer.

The reason mid-tier vet content is trivial has zero to do with healing being too strong but rather that damage is too high due to the never ending power creep (that and ZOS adding arcanist to the game as well). Also, having mid grade vet content being the bridge between easier content and vet content where you eventually become strong enough to make it feel trivial isn´t a bad thing. It´s called progression, and in less experienced groups you still want a healer in mid grade vet content. It´s just a question of experience, not "healing/damage being too strong". When you eventually reach endgame (assuming you do), more role specific specializations is then needed. I honestly see zero things that is bad with that tbh.

In PvP the current sytem allows for solo and small-scale to exist. God forbid I need a dedicated healbot with me at all times to PvP, would´ve quit the game a long time ago if that was the case. Unless you want to push everyone to play in large groups or ballgroups (which would have dedicated healers regardless), sure go ahead and turn the current system upside down a decouple the stats.

Not in favor of eliminating solo play, but balancing it. Current system is 1000% in favor of full damage builds with mitigation built in, ie DPS tanks. It’s enabled because that’s all you have to spec into since the third factor (healing) pulls from those exact same damage stats. Outside of a classic Sorc or bombers name a PvP build that isn’t running with sub 30k stam/mag. It’s a problem, and “solo/smallscale” are crutching the imbalance.

Same goes PvE outside of vet trials, no reason to be anything other than a solo build.

tomofhyrule · November 14

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Game systems are interesting when they involve discrete choices but in ESO there is zero actual tension between "healing vs. damage" because you increase both optimally using the exact same stats. Utterly baffling thought process there.

This is definitely something that's been feeling like a problem lately across the whole game - the concept of "I don't want to have to choose A or B, why can't I just have it all!"

Like... I understand some people find it fun to play a single-player game in godmode. But an RPG by nature is supposed to be about choice. If you remove the choices (or worse, make it so the choices are "get everything" versus "be a joke character"), then that takes a lor of the RP out of the RPG...