[REQUEST] Eliminate racial passives and replace them with "Schools", "Education" or similar

AnduinTryggva

I like to play a certain "race" for its role playing aspect but would as well do some advanced content where "racial" passives can become important.

Now I know that it is a tradition in fantasy literature and role playing games based on fantasy world to attribute different talents and traits to the various "races". Now considering that much of the fantasy genre is based on Tolkien who wrote his works in an epoch when people actually believed in different human "races" and attributed specific traits to these "races" we can well assume that this imagination of "race" = a certain set of traits has its root exactly in that epoch with this specific way to see human "races". Today the general assumption as moved on and so I think should the depiction of "races" in rpg.

So I request following:
Disconnect race and "racial" passives. So when chosing a "race" you don't chose a set of "racial passives" automatically.

During character creation require the player to select a "school" (or "culture" if you like) that represents the "racial" passives as we know them today.

Actually I like to select a "culture" so I could in my role play represent an Argonian who grew up in a khajiit environment and got consequently schooled in khajiit ways to do things etc.

Last'One

I get where you’re coming from, the idea of separating "race" from "racial passives" makes sense if we think in modern social terms, but in The Elder Scrolls universe that wouldn’t actually work without breaking the lore... (Well… what lore? So… yeah. Sad.)

In Tamriel, the different races aren’t just cultural groups, they’re fundamentally distinct species, shaped by divine intervention, magical origins, and biological traits that go far beyond social upbringing. Their passives aren’t cultural habits, they’re literally what they are.

Take Argonians, for instance: they’re born from the Hist, with a living connection to those sentient trees that literally alter their physiology. Their ability to breathe underwater or resist disease isn’t something you could "learn" growing up among Khajiit, it’s part of their biology and their bond with the Hist.

Or look at the Khajiit, they’re not just cat-like people with a culture; their entire body form (whether they’re small as Alfiq or large as Senche) is determined by the phases of Masser and Secunda at their birth. That’s a metaphysical process tied to the moons, not something culture could change.

Then you have Altmer, who have larger magicka reserves because of their direct lineage from the Aedra, that’s divine ancestry, not education. Orcs (Orsimer) are another clear case: they exist because Trinimac was transformed into Malacath, and their entire race carries the mark of that divine transformation.

So while I understand wanting to separate culture and race for flexibility, doing so in TES would essentially erase what makes each race unique in the first place, their deep metaphysical and biological roots.

If you want more roleplay flexibility, a lore-consistent approach would be to add a "culture" layer on top of existing racial traits, so your Argonian could still have Argonian physiology and passives, but gain cultural traits from growing up among Khajiit (like a bonus to stealth, trading, or agility). That way you keep the lore intact while adding the variety you want.

NOTE:

But then again, let’s be honest, ZOS has been steadily eroding the internal logic and lore of the Elder Scrolls universe now. Things that would’ve been unthinkable in the main series have become normal in ESO. They already blur the lines between concepts that were once sacred to the lore, like creating a Templar + Necromancer subclass, or freely mixing magics and powers that used to be deeply tied to the gods, the Daedra, or specific racial traditions.

So yeah, from a lore perspective, separating race from racial passives would be nonsense, but from a design trend perspective? Sadly, it’s exactly the kind of thing I could see them doing.

Maybe if you rally your entire guild to the forums to post things like "Yes please, let my Argonian be born from the Hist but somehow trained as a Breton battlemage of High Rock with Orcish crafting instincts and Khajiiti agility!" , then ZOS might just go, "You know what? Great idea! Add it next patch."

Because at this point, it feels like they’re more interested in turning ESO into a generic fantasy MMO than keeping the soul and consistency of The Elder Scrolls alive.

Syldras

It truly depends. Some racial passives are clearly physical, like the swimming skills of the Argonians, but others are very much a question of upbringing. Orcs getting an extra of crafting and heavy armor is clearly cultural. Logically, a human who lived with orcs for a longer time would be able to acquire that same bonus, while an orc who grew up untraditionally in a family of traders in Cyrodiil would not neccessarily have had any experience with crafting or fighting so far, in which case that bonus wouldn't make any sense.

anadandy

Last'One wrote: »

So while I understand wanting to separate culture and race for flexibility, doing so in TES would essentially erase what makes each race unique in the first place, their deep metaphysical and biological roots.
<snip>
NOTE:

But then again, let’s be honest, ZOS has been steadily eroding the internal logic and lore of the Elder Scrolls universe now.

Pour one out for Bosmer stealth.

Vulkunne

It's ok to have constraints. For example, a Redguard, even with their stam bonus, can make for an interesting mage. Same for an Orc. In my opinion for whatever its worth, that's the real deal when you don't make the cookie cutter mage and invest in something new and uncouth, not able to predict or set every outcome. On the other hand, an Argonian without swim bonus isn't an Argonian. Bosmer without stam regen? sub that for mag regen is a short High Elf. Sometimes it's the differences that don't make us less, but it defines us. Without those differences we have no distinct identity or culture.

It's like in a horror movie; they could just straight up kill random people at random times but who would care? What is each kill unless we get to meet each person first, see something about who they are, why they're there and how they may die, to speak of the tension leading up to the big moment, their last moment of being alive, the same, but also different.

I also think, not only this concept as mentioned here, but if it were expanded upon would leave you with too many people min/maxing. Now there's really nothing wrong with that in and of itself, I just think it would ruin the game's immersion by spreading everything too thin. Everyone with the same loadout... regardless of any other levels of organization. The idea isn't terrible, but it would end up breaking the game because it would turn organize buffs which represent a race's identity, culture and/or history and just spew it into a list for one mega-meta build with no identity. Without identity, there is no story.

Sarannah

Nah, keep racials as they are... they are elder scrolls, and exist in all the ES games. But I do like the idea of racial school passives, just not as a replacement of racials themselves. Maybe racial school passives could be granted after completing a quest for a specific race(changeable by completing another race's schoolquest). Let these be 'advanced racials' or 'racial learnings'(or culture).

For learnings one could even go as far as have players selecting one daedric prince to follow, and grant players passives(skills) through those after completing a quest to please their daedric prince. Maybe a similar idea with the great houses/guilds/temple, by following their teachings. Would be great ideas for new skilllines/passives.

Just nothing at the expense of already existing content/features. The 'build' foundation for our characters is strong/solid, so I'd rather only have ZOS build upon that than change things.

Gabriel_H

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I like to play a certain "race" for its role playing aspect but would as well do some advanced content where "racial" passives can become important.

Now I know that it is a tradition in fantasy literature and role playing games based on fantasy world to attribute different talents and traits to the various "races". Now considering that much of the fantasy genre is based on Tolkien who wrote his works in an epoch when people actually believed in different human "races" and attributed specific traits to these "races" we can well assume that this imagination of "race" = a certain set of traits has its root exactly in that epoch with this specific way to see human "races". Today the general assumption as moved on and so I think should the depiction of "races" in rpg.

So I request following:
Disconnect race and "racial" passives. So when chosing a "race" you don't chose a set of "racial passives" automatically.

During character creation require the player to select a "school" (or "culture" if you like) that represents the "racial" passives as we know them today.

Actually I like to select a "culture" so I could in my role play represent an Argonian who grew up in a khajiit environment and got consequently schooled in khajiit ways to do things etc.

Race in the real world is a social construct. In ESO it's a reality. ZOS went with race in this instance but could easily have chosen species. While that sounds odd to an RPGers ear, as RPGs have been using race for eons, it would clear up the issue your premise seems to have.

The passives are species specific. They are in the DNA. An argonian growing up in a khajiit environment is still an argonian. These passives aren't learned, it's something specific to their species aka race.

lostineternity

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I like to play a certain "race" for its role playing aspect but would as well do some advanced content where "racial" passives can become important.

for example?
what content is gated because of racial passives?

This_0ne

lostineternity wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I like to play a certain "race" for its role playing aspect but would as well do some advanced content where "racial" passives can become important.

for example?
what content is gated because of racial passives?

Oh, you know that Maw of the Lorkhaj, which only non-Khajiit can pass through, because khajiits are subject to the rhythm of the dark heart and will be corrupted by Namira (its a joke).

Soarora

I’m under the understanding that literally nothing in the game actually requires you to be the optimal race. While it makes sense to say scorepushers would require optimization of race, I was informed that there are scorepushers who don’t play with optimal races. So… only reason to optimize it is if you yourself want to make the absolute perfect build.

StihlReign

Awesome post and topic. I'd like to pick a race, select 4 passives.

I vote yes for the racial passives update.

Last'One

anadandy wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

So while I understand wanting to separate culture and race for flexibility, doing so in TES would essentially erase what makes each race unique in the first place, their deep metaphysical and biological roots.
<snip>
NOTE:

But then again, let’s be honest, ZOS has been steadily eroding the internal logic and lore of the Elder Scrolls universe now.

Pour one out for Bosmer stealth.

Guess we’re pouring one out for TES at this point.

Mik195

I think the racials need work. There's no reason that bosmer should have one racial that has no value in pve unless every race does.

Hapexamendios

No, I like that the different race have different passives. Your request would really make race choice irrelevant and the game is already over homogenized as it is imo.

Arboz

Strictly against such a change.
Theres nothing more delicious and exhilarating than drinking the blood from a frenzy orc.

tomofhyrule

I am wholly against this idea.

I understand a lot of this comes from the fact that fantasy settings (not just ESO, this is across pretty well all fantasy settings) use the word "race" as a delineator, when the word "breed" or even "species" would be more appropriate based on how that word is used in a fantasy setting. After all, in real life, we do see biological differences in breeds or species of animals - we wouldn't expect corgis or housecats to be able to pull a sled like a sled dog would, would we? And yes, I do mean species in come cases (like various humans versus various lizardfolk, considering even the Elder Scrolls series has a lorebook specifically about interbreeding).
And as a sidenote from that lorebook, it quite literally says the following:

"races," to use the imprecise but useful term

Let's carefully dance around the 'modern politics versus established franchises' debate, and I'll just say that I dislike this push to homogenize everything and remove anything that makes people uncomfortable. Sure, it may feel utopian to have everything perfectly the same and for racial choice to be 100% cosmetic, but then the whole world just feels fake. It really does start to take you out of the world. And along those lines, we see a lot less recognition in games for the character's race, which also takes the realism out of the world. It is not a good thing in the real world to have prejudices, but fantasy worlds that lean into race by acknowledging who you are and what you can do (and yes, giving you some NPCs who either like you or dislike you specifically because of your race) do make the world feel more real and alive.

In pretty well every fantasy world though, the racial passives don't matter much. Sure, someone whose passives match what they intend to do will have things easier (yay for clich­é magic elves), but that doesn't mean that someone can't do something that doesn't match their race*. In fact, I think some of the best stories are those where a character specifically does do something nontraditional.
*ok, some universes do bar characters from some things, like how in the Dragon Age universe dwarves are unable to access the Fade and therefore are incapable of being mages. And even then they find a few ways to make exceptions.

In ESO, racial passives are pretty well two set bonuses. That's it. If you're at the point where a racial is the difference between clearing and not clearing, you are not as good as you think you are. It is nothing in the grand scheme of things until you are in the 1% of the 1% of scorepushers.

StihlReign

Why not, everyone has every ability and that's going well...pick your passives may as well be next. I'm voting yes on Pick your ulti too. And Create your ulti. Maybe the next class can be, Dwemer build your class. 15 default abilities plus morphs and ultis and the unique ability to use any/all other abilities. Just slot what you want.

BXR_Lonestar

I knew this was coming the moment they eliminated classes by allowing subclassing. The argument for it? "TES games don't have rigid classes, so ESO shouldn't have classes." Regardless of the balancing issues it would cause.

Well, that same argument now cuts against eliminating racial passives. TES games have CLEAR benefits and drawbacks for playing each race. Eliminating them for the sake of convenience doesn't make any sense. Racial passives are canon and ARE in TES games. So they shouldn't be eliminated. Period.

Syldras

I can fully understand the wish to have more options to define one's character's background for roleplaying purposes, including adjusting some aspects, for example for playing a character who grew up abroad and therefore would not have the typical cultural habits/knowledge/training/education (or what ever to call it).

What it does in terms of balance, is a different thing. I see it might cause problems.

Treeshka

Some parts of the racial passives can be set in stone. This would be purely for lore reasons, so Argonians can still keep their swim speed etc. Redguards can have their weapon related passives.

But then they can introduce passives that we can morph into different things.

Wereswan

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I knew this was coming the moment they eliminated classes by allowing subclassing. The argument for it? "TES games don't have rigid classes, so ESO shouldn't have classes." Regardless of the balancing issues it would cause.

Well, that same argument now cuts against eliminating racial passives. TES games have CLEAR benefits and drawbacks for playing each race. Eliminating them for the sake of convenience doesn't make any sense. Racial passives are canon and ARE in TES games. So they shouldn't be eliminated. Period.

In Morrowind and Oblivion, your attributes changed based on which gender you selected. Skyrim dropped this, as did the Oblivion remaster.

Most of those who've replied to this thread seems to be of the opinion that racial passives make very little difference in terms of gameplay. Dropping them in favor of a selectable "origins" system, akin to the Oblivion remaster, seems like a good solution.

[edited for the sake of accuracy]

StihlReign

No, I think they can make a difference. I want to stack the ones I want.

Wereswan

StihlReign wrote: »

No, I think they can make a difference. I want to stack the ones I want.

Hence the "basically everyone," but I'll switch it to "most."

Chili_Pepper

Make race champion points section

StihlReign

Wereswan wrote: »

StihlReign wrote: »

No, I think they can make a difference. I want to stack the ones I want.

Hence the "basically everyone," but I'll switch it to "most."

I suspect this will go the same way subclassing has. It will break, it will cause power creep, it will be downplayed at first, almost everyone will want the old system back (in the end) with some minor tweaks to what PTS says we should've done ages ago.

spartaxoxo

I think that they should keep them because they are a staple of the franchise.

Mik195

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I knew this was coming the moment they eliminated classes by allowing subclassing. The argument for it? "TES games don't have rigid classes, so ESO shouldn't have classes." Regardless of the balancing issues it would cause.

Well, that same argument now cuts against eliminating racial passives. TES games have CLEAR benefits and drawbacks for playing each race. Eliminating them for the sake of convenience doesn't make any sense. Racial passives are canon and ARE in TES games. So they shouldn't be eliminated. Period.

Normal TES games don't change the race abilities years after you begin playing them. My bosmer predated the changes and ZOS has decided that people can play as they want, but Bosmer wardens should go play pvp. That's bad design.

Castagere

I welcome almost anything that would improve Redguard passives to better align with what the lore says they are. According to the lore, Redguards should be the top DPS race in the game, but they are weak in ESO.

AScarlato

No thanks. You already have so much freedom to do whatever you like, it's one of the only choices that still really does anything in this game on a base character level. I like what little flavor remains.

Radiate77

If anything, racial skills should be more defined instead of just basic passives.

Like how in TES IV, Dunmer can summon an Ancestor, or how in TES V, Orcs get double damage for a short duration.

tomofhyrule

Let’s not pretend that “you can pick your own passives!” would lead to anything other than “this is the one acceptable choice, and anything else is memetic trash.” You know, like exactly what happened with Subclassing.

Wereswan wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

I knew this was coming the moment they eliminated classes by allowing subclassing. The argument for it? "TES games don't have rigid classes, so ESO shouldn't have classes." Regardless of the balancing issues it would cause.

Well, that same argument now cuts against eliminating racial passives. TES games have CLEAR benefits and drawbacks for playing each race. Eliminating them for the sake of convenience doesn't make any sense. Racial passives are canon and ARE in TES games. So they shouldn't be eliminated. Period.

In Morrowind and Oblivion, your attributes changed based on which gender you selected. Skyrim dropped this, as did the Oblivion remaster.

Most of those who've replied to this thread seems to be of the opinion that racial passives make very little difference in terms of gameplay. Dropping them in favor of a selectable "origins" system, akin to the Oblivion remaster, seems like a good solution.

[edited for the sake of accuracy]

And yet the OBR “origins” was the OG gender-based stats. We didn’t get stat choices irrelevant of race, and even Skyrim did have different stats for one specific race (though if the answer is “we don’t have differing stats because we literally just removed attributes from our RPG lmao” is the answer, that seems like a different problem).

But even considering a character of one species (yes, different “races” in the TES universe are all different species) being raised in another culture doesn't mean that they would be 100% the same as someone of that species in that culture. Again, let’s consider a real-life example. I can bring my teacup Pomeranian to Alaska and fit her every day with a harness and train her to pull a sled… but do we really think that any amount of training will turn Frou-Frou into a sled dog? Even if she was born and raised in the Arctic and trained every day? She literally doesn’t have the muscle or body mass for that.

But again, there is no problem to do a role that’s not the typical of your race. This - unlike the mess we got from Subclassing - is actually something where the meta is probably less than 5% more than the other, so irrelevant in most aspects.

Someone should try this: go and do a full parse with a character. Make sure you do it 5 times so we can even out the effects of RNG (crit chance). Then do a race change and nothing else, and parse 5 times again. Toss the top and bottom parses for each and compare the average DPS for both. What’s the actual numeric difference from the race?
Because I bet it’s super small and essentially irrelevant in the hands of the average player.