Suggestion for Subclass PVP

Kelenan7368

There has been a dramatic swing of people using AI to make their subclass builds. This has created a power imbalance from the people using pure class builds and people that like to play the game as intended by making their own builds.

Now I don't think there will be any stopping people using AI to min max their builds.

BUT!

I think IMO this can help to level the playing field.

1. Only allow 1 dps line, 1 defense line, and 1 healing line in all subclass builds.
This will balance the system more inline with pure class builds.

2. Grant a small buff for pure class builds. IMO this will curb the swing of power so it is not so dramatic from the subclass builds.

I do think that subclassing has created true PVP balance in the game by giving everyone access to every skill in the game no matter what class you start with, but with this new ability to use AI people have swung the power level of subclass to a place pure class has difficulty in matching.

Please try it.

Also on a personal note. I cannot get into BG's with my wife almost at all. I think it's because I'm CP 3200 and she is CP 1500. We have waited several hours multiple time a day and never get in.

IMO I think if the QUE was 1st come 1st serve but place an even amount as possible of people having wins with people having losses on the teams this would solve that. Also It would make it so people would not have to wait in QUE for so long trying to get a game, creating a more fun experience by playing more. Please try it! I would love to actually be able to PVP with my wife.

Vulkunne

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

There has been a dramatic swing of people using AI to make their subclass builds. This has created a power imbalance from the people using pure class builds and people that like to play the game as intended by making their own builds.

Now I don't think there will be any stopping people using AI to min max their builds.

BUT!

I think IMO this can help to level the playing field.

1. Only allow 1 dps line, 1 defense line, and 1 healing line in all subclass builds.
This will balance the system more inline with pure class builds.

2. Grant a small buff for pure class builds. IMO this will curb the swing of power so it is not so dramatic from the subclass builds.

I do think that subclassing has created true PVP balance in the game by giving everyone access to every skill in the game no matter what class you start with, but with this new ability to use AI people have swung the power level of subclass to a place pure class has difficulty in matching.

Please try it.

Also on a personal note. I cannot get into BG's with my wife almost at all. I think it's because I'm CP 3200 and she is CP 1500. We have waited several hours multiple time a day and never get in.

IMO I think if the QUE was 1st come 1st serve but place an even amount as possible of people having wins with people having losses on the teams this would solve that. Also It would make it so people would not have to wait in QUE for so long trying to get a game, creating a more fun experience by playing more. Please try it! I would love to actually be able to PVP with my wife.

This is just sad but not surprising. I had said something similar to this on another thread.

On the other hand, it would be good if ZOS wanted to measure their class balance against an AI. To test the strength of the diversity between things. That said, I don't think AI is something the general public needs access to. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. AI just kills creativity because some players are afraid to lose and no AI can prepare you for that.

Gabriel_H

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

1. Only allow 1 dps line, 1 defense line, and 1 healing line in all subclass builds.
This will balance the system more inline with pure class builds.

Wouldn't work, because sub-classing brings different benefits depending on which class group you are. Sub-classing failed, very badly, to account for DLC classes haveing 1 DD line, 1 tank line, and 1 healing line and that Base classes have mixed trees.

The only way to address that disparity would be to re-work the base class skill lines without altering the overall balance of the pure class version of the class - which isn't as easy as it sounds. For example. A Templar may spec Extended Ritual in Restoring light to Tank or Heal, and Ritual of Retribution to DD.

Yet, until that disparity is dealt with and changes to how sub-classing operates is going to cause balance issues.

Kelenan7368

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

1. Only allow 1 dps line, 1 defense line, and 1 healing line in all subclass builds.
This will balance the system more inline with pure class builds.

Wouldn't work, because sub-classing brings different benefits depending on which class group you are. Sub-classing failed, very badly, to account for DLC classes haveing 1 DD line, 1 tank line, and 1 healing line and that Base classes have mixed trees.

The only way to address that disparity would be to re-work the base class skill lines without altering the overall balance of the pure class version of the class - which isn't as easy as it sounds. For example. A Templar may spec Extended Ritual in Restoring light to Tank or Heal, and Ritual of Retribution to DD.

Yet, until that disparity is dealt with and changes to how sub-classing operates is going to cause balance issues.

I wouldn't say Subclassing failed. But you are right it unlocked a can of worms. reworking other skill lines is a must! But I don't see any need for nerfs.

Although I do see this taking years to make other skill lines more viable so everyone isn't running the same thing all the time.

I would love to know how some people are able to take no damage and still do high DPS. That has baffled me in my personal theory crafting. I can see why more people are jumping on the AI train.

I personally don't want to do that rout though. Call me a stubborn romantic. I like making my own builds. I fail alot but when I lock one in. It's very gratifying.

warm_blanket

real ones use macros to prompt their ai bot builds.

jokes aside benchmark your stats and cmx your fights.

BXR_Lonestar

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

1. Only allow 1 dps line, 1 defense line, and 1 healing line in all subclass builds.
This will balance the system more inline with pure class builds.

Wouldn't work, because sub-classing brings different benefits depending on which class group you are. Sub-classing failed, very badly, to account for DLC classes haveing 1 DD line, 1 tank line, and 1 healing line and that Base classes have mixed trees.

The only way to address that disparity would be to re-work the base class skill lines without altering the overall balance of the pure class version of the class - which isn't as easy as it sounds. For example. A Templar may spec Extended Ritual in Restoring light to Tank or Heal, and Ritual of Retribution to DD.

Yet, until that disparity is dealt with and changes to how sub-classing operates is going to cause balance issues.

I wouldn't say Subclassing failed. But you are right it unlocked a can of worms. reworking other skill lines is a must! But I don't see any need for nerfs.

Although I do see this taking years to make other skill lines more viable so everyone isn't running the same thing all the time.

I would love to know how some people are able to take no damage and still do high DPS. That has baffled me in my personal theory crafting. I can see why more people are jumping on the AI train.

I personally don't want to do that rout though. Call me a stubborn romantic. I like making my own builds. I fail alot but when I lock one in. It's very gratifying.

Are you kidding? Subclassing is a total fail. All our people who have left the game since Subclassing has come out have pointed to subclassing being the exact reason they left. Its been a total s show if you catch my drift. Yes, its fun to be overpowered, but at the same time, it has caused more issues than it has "solved" with this game, and it was really an unforced error in a time where they were starting to try to take steps to reinforce class identity - via class scripts and sets. But people tried to tell them it would work out this way if it was implemented the way that it was in the PTS and they implemented it anyways - totally half-baked and with little thought on balancing.

I don't know who this change was catered to, but the Devs should have had enough vision and understanding of the design of the game to understand why this would have been a problematic change. Now, they'll have a difficult time to undue it absent nerfs that would cause you to incur severe drawbacks for subclassing, and then people won't want to use it.

Gabriel_H

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

I would love to know how some people are able to take no damage and still do high DPS. That has baffled me in my personal theory crafting. I can see why more people are jumping on the AI train.

Hybridization. Weapon damage and spell damage are the same thing. They affect both damage and healing. There are also a ton of damage mitigation skills/sets.

So, while they take less damage, the appearance that they are taking no damage isn't strictly true, they are just healing it very quickly by stacking HoTs.

That's the skilled players. The not-so-skilled rely on hack software.

Kelenan7368

Nope, not kidding you. Subclass is not a fail. It created what the PVP community was crying out for, GAME BALANCE.
It gave everyone access to every skill in the game, now no one can claim it's not balanced.

I do agree it still needs a lot of work and it's needs to come sooner rather than later. More skill lines need to be made viable. I don't think anything needs nerfed. Only reworked and buffed.

I do see a great disparage when it comes to pure class though. It wasn't too bad at 1st, but now that people have tuned it in and some (a fast growing number) using AI to make builds, pure class is getting tossed aside due to it's inability to match power. This needs addressed ASAP!

As far as rage quitters they always have existed. Because they can't adapt to change so they get frustrated and quit. I can only see it justifiable to rage quit over a buggy game. Which this combat animation rework is causing. That IMO is a good reason to quit!

I just hope the DEV's get involved on reworking skill lines for subclassing and pure classes quickly. For I do agree player patience is running out quickly and there will soon be an even greater exodus.

Kelenan7368

I do however acknowledge the mess the current state is for subclassing. Your right about that!

Gabriel_H

Kelenan7368 wrote: »

Nope, not kidding you. Subclass is not a fail. It created what the PVP community was crying out for, GAME BALANCE.
It gave everyone access to every skill in the game, now no one can claim it's not balanced.

You are confusing balance with homogenization.

Yes, everyone can now access all skills, sort of. There is still one class line of your class to contend with, but if you want the PvP "meta" then everyone will play 1 of only 3 classes to get that line, or even worse play 1 of only 2 classes.

Everyone running around in the exact same build isn't what people mean by balance. It's homogenization - and that kills PvP very quickly because it's boring. There is a lack of strategic diversity, there is a lack of dynamic gameplay.

Is it technially more balanced? Absolutely, but again that isn't what people mean by balance. They want class and role diversity, where there is competitveness between the varying factors.

In general:
With homogenization the faster keypress player wins.
With class/role diversity and competitveness the more skilled player wins.
What we currently have now is the best on paper spec wins.

Kelenan7368

Gabriel_H wrote: »

You are confusing balance with homogenization.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

No I am not, but you seem to think so. I do however agree the game did become homogenized due to lack of skill lines being used due to a lack of viable skill lines

xR3ACTORx

AI is absolutely *** when it's about making build, cause AI modules simply don't understand the basic rules of ESO.