Dear ZOS or anyone from the team…

Last'One

@ZOS_Kevin, @ZOS_GinaBruno


I just did vSS, and we killed all the trash up to Lokkestiiz without any tank. In fact, the tank wasn’t even inside the trial.
After Lokkestiiz, we killed all the trash again without a tank and honestly, we didn’t even need healers. All we needed was beam!
I left the group after that.

Dear ZOS, with all the respect I have for The Elder Scrolls… let me ask you this:
Turning the game into this, a nonsense, DPS-only experience, isn’t that disrespectful to what ESO once was?
It sure feels that way to me.
It really does and it's really sad... we don't need tanks anymore... we don't need healers anymore... what a shame and a disgrace this game has become.

bruta

they don't care

JiubLeRepenti

bruta wrote: »

they don't care

This.

The problem is that ZOS is doing everything to allow new players/casual players to hit what was previously considered top-tier DPS with only a three-button rotation (and yes, I highlight the fact that I see that as a problem). They always said they wanted to reduce the gap between new and old players, and they did that the worst way possible.

In 2019 when vSS was released, 80–90k was considered massive DPS. In 2025, I can do 125k DPS with a single bar on my stamplar (and subclasses).

A few years ago, you had to train, parse, train, and parse again to reach a decent result. It was harder, and then rarer to meet a good DPS in PUG.

Now you just take 5 minutes to watch a video on YouTube titled "OMFGGG THE NEW MAGPLAR GOD ???§§§§???ZE?DZSZQS", you copy the build and bam, you reach 110k.

This is why you find PUGs for vet trials with groups that deal a stupid amount of damage : because having a stupidly high DPS doesn’t require investment and training anymore. Arca + Sorc + NB + three-button rotation = 120k+. That’s it.

We got the Oakensoul ring. Then we got the strengthening of the HA builds. Then the subclasses. Everything is made to make the game easier, and to make huge DPS easier to reach.

But the overworld difficulty is still the same.

Last'One

bruta wrote: »

they don't care

C’mon… someone has to stop this nonsense. This really has to stop! We, all players, need to find a way to end this.
This is our game, but we’re not gaming it anymore.

SeaGtGruff

Oh, please, it's the players who decide that all-DPS is the way to go. I'm so sick of players judging each other based on how much DPS they can or cannot do-- one streamer even suggested that anyone with all of their fingers and 2 brain cells should be able to do 120K DPS on a dummy, which implied to me that no players have any business pursuing a tank or healing build because everyone is supposed to be a DPS or else they must physically or mentally deficient -- and then these same players whine about how trivial everything is and how there's no need for any tanks or healers. Take responsibility for your own build decisions, and if you chose a build so you'd be massively-OP then stop whining about things being so easy to kill because, hey, that was exactly what you were trying to achieve with your build.

valenwood_vegan

Last'One wrote: »

bruta wrote: »

they don't care

C’mon… someone has to stop this nonsense. This really has to stop! We, all players, need to find a way to end this.
This is our game, but we’re not gaming it anymore.

Lol I mean, you could try to buy the company I guess?

Mathius_Mordred

I have a two bar Arc that used to do 125K before the relentless focus nerf now at 115k. So hitting two buttons to get 120K is BS of the first order.

I also know that the vast majority of teams could not finish vSS without at least one tank. If your team did it (no doubt after countless rezzes, then good for you. Our more casual group of new players and long-time vets can do vSS without much of a problem with the usual team makeup, but there's no way we would go into almost any DLC vet without tanks and healers. Having said that if you have 12 x 110K+ arcs in there, then I suppose it could be done, but it would be messy and there's no hope of getting a No death run. As it is, I think it's about right.

AvalonRanger

I have bit different opinion.

Developer made too much of stupid bullet sponge boss character
without interesting smart environment based game mechanics. And did
too much build biased game design both PVE and PVP.

This fossil game design mindset have been destroying ESO through this 11 years.

AvalonRanger

Halloween event boss has interesting mechanics.
That is quite MMO team playing biased contents.

They have enough skill to make better contents, but they chose easier way.

spartaxoxo

I don't see a huge issue with not needing a tank for trash tbh. As long as one is needed for bosses.

moderatelyfatman

Last'One wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin, @ZOS_GinaBruno


I just did vSS, and we killed all the trash up to Lokkestiiz without any tank. In fact, the tank wasn’t even inside the trial.
After Lokkestiiz, we killed all the trash again without a tank and honestly, we didn’t even need healers. All we needed was beam!
I left the group after that.

Dear ZOS, with all the respect I have for The Elder Scrolls… let me ask you this:
Turning the game into this, a nonsense, DPS-only experience, isn’t that disrespectful to what ESO once was?
It sure feels that way to me.
It really does and it's really sad... we don't need tanks anymore... we don't need healers anymore... what a shame and a disgrace this game has become.

And then ZOS wonders why most players other than the casuals don't stick around for long.

moderatelyfatman

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Oh, please, it's the players who decide that all-DPS is the way to go. I'm so sick of players judging each other based on how much DPS they can or cannot do-- one streamer even suggested that anyone with all of their fingers and 2 brain cells should be able to do 120K DPS on a dummy, which implied to me that no players have any business pursuing a tank or healing build because everyone is supposed to be a DPS or else they must physically or mentally deficient -- and then these same players whine about how trivial everything is and how there's no need for any tanks or healers. Take responsibility for your own build decisions, and if you chose a build so you'd be massively-OP then stop whining about things being so easy to kill because, hey, that was exactly what you were trying to achieve with your build.

Tank? Healer?
What are these strange and arcane terms you keep throwing out?

Frayton

Killing trash in vet trials without a tank isn't new. The fact that you and your team just discovered this means ZOS is doing ok with accessibility to trials.

Last'One

Frayton wrote: »

Killing trash in vet trials without a tank isn't new. The fact that you and your team just discovered this means ZOS is doing ok with accessibility to trials.

Of course they’re doing an amazing job with “accessibility to trials.” Let’s see if the Arcanist will be the first time a single class kills a game, because the company completely ignores all other classes and refuses to nerf it.

“Your team”? Me and my team!? It was just PUGs from the Group Finder! If you look at my previous posts, you’ll understand, I don’t have or use Discord, and I’m not part of any guild. I only play with PUGs!

And why don’t I like Discord or guilds?
Because there, people are so strong they don’t even need players inside the trial!
I discovered this long ago, just creating a 12player group is enough for any boss to commit suicide by itself!

Frayton

Last'One wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

Killing trash in vet trials without a tank isn't new. The fact that you and your team just discovered this means ZOS is doing ok with accessibility to trials.

Of course they’re doing an amazing job with “accessibility to trials.” Let’s see if the Arcanist will be the first time a single class kills a game, because the company completely ignores all other classes and refuses to nerf it.

“Your team”? Me and my team!? It was just PUGs from the Group Finder! If you look at my previous posts, you’ll understand, I don’t have or use Discord, and I’m not part of any guild. I only play with PUGs!

So ZOS has improved the pug experience as well. Even better.

Last'One

Frayton wrote: »

Last'One wrote: »

Frayton wrote: »

Killing trash in vet trials without a tank isn't new. The fact that you and your team just discovered this means ZOS is doing ok with accessibility to trials.

Of course they’re doing an amazing job with “accessibility to trials.” Let’s see if the Arcanist will be the first time a single class kills a game, because the company completely ignores all other classes and refuses to nerf it.

“Your team”? Me and my team!? It was just PUGs from the Group Finder! If you look at my previous posts, you’ll understand, I don’t have or use Discord, and I’m not part of any guild. I only play with PUGs!

So ZOS has improved the pug experience as well. Even better.

Yes, they did. They improved not only the pug experience, but also the server lag, by making players leave the game!
What an amazing job, don’t you think?
A game where you should need tanks, healers, and damage dealers has been reduced to an “amazing pug experience.” (As long as you beam… otherwise, RIP experience.)

edit:
Let me ask you this: if ZOS removed the Arcanist from the game right now, would you still have the same opinion, that “ZOS has improved the pug experience as well, even better”?
Remember, we have (not) Dragonknight, Nightblade, Sorcerer, Templar, Warden, and Necromancer classes too. Imagine how good the "PUG experience" will be. Oh wait… we’ve already seen that somewhere…

Gabriel_H

Now, go try it in vOC.

The problem is the non-linear nature of gear access (being what's possible vs ZOS intent) and older content having a lower scaling cap.

ZOS have great intentions, but their execution is typically shockingly bad. They fail to consider unintended consequences.

Last'One

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Now, go try it in vOC.

The problem is the non-linear nature of gear access (being what's possible vs ZOS intent) and older content having a lower scaling cap.

ZOS have great intentions, but their execution is typically shockingly bad. They fail to consider unintended consequences.

And what intentions are those, exactly?
Because buffing one class for "new or casual players" (and to make money), while at the same time completely destroying other classes with subclassing so veteran players can parse 180k, while "new or casual players" are pushed into playing Arcanist only because they can barely reach 30k DPS on other classes (due to weaving), doesn’t sound like a good "intention" at all.

It sounds like nonsense, and a total disgrace to the game.

Even worse, when these so-called "new or casual players" reach the point where they no longer need tanks or healers, just Beam! how in the world is that normal for a game whose foundation has always been built around 1/2 tanks, 1/2 healers, and damage dealers?

Now everything has turned into Beam only?! And nothing else matters!?

Normal difficulty is a damn joke, Veteran difficulty is a damn joke... What kind of game are ZoS building here!?

edit:

@Gabriel_H Have you tried vOC with a solo-bar Beam build? Just go and try it...
Then do the same with any other (non)class and let me know how that goes.

Gabriel_H

Last'One wrote: »

Because buffing one class for "new or casual players" (and to make money),

Intention

Last'One wrote: »

while at the same time completely destroying other classes with subclassing so veteran players can parse 180k, while "new or casual players" are pushed into playing Arcanist

Shockingly bad execution with a failure to consider unitended consquences

Last'One wrote: »

only because they can barely reach 30k DPS on other classes (due to weaving), doesn’t sound like a good "intention" at all.

Not even close to true. Now, if you'd said 160k then you'd be more accurate.

Last'One wrote: »

Even worse, when these so-called "new or casual players" reach the point where they no longer need tanks or healers, just Beam! how in the world is that normal for a game whose foundation has always been built around 1/2 tanks, 1/2 healers, and damage dealers?

That would be: "The problem is the non-linear nature of gear access (being what's possible vs ZOS intent) and older content having a lower scaling cap."

Vulkunne

bruta wrote: »

they don't care

I don't think they really do anymore. However.

I'm not against creativity and so the laser abilities are cool from that aspect. However, we're reaching the point where like not only Healers, not only traditional DPS, but now Tanks are no longer necessary. This was something against the original vision of the game. This game desperately needs some boundaries and borders put back into place because some skills have become too dominant.

jm42

AvalonRanger wrote: »

I have bit different opinion.

Developer made too much of stupid bullet sponge boss character
without interesting smart environment based game mechanics. And did
too much build biased game design both PVE and PVP.

This fossil game design mindset have been destroying ESO through this 11 years.

Maw of Lorkhaj was a very fun trial with amazing mechs, now it is barely can be called a dungeon because of ridiculous DPS, even twins die before their colour mech and most of the new players don't even know that there is some portal on the last boss which also dies long before hitting any phases. you should literally just stand there picking your nose and waiting to be able to make the golden phase achievement. and this was the state of MoL even before subclasses, just when DPS hit 120k it was already like that. Craglorn trials are literal joke for years and they have interesting mechs

Gabriel_H

jm42 wrote: »

Craglorn trials are literal joke for years and they have interesting mechs

I do guild runs in Crag with conditions: Base game classes and gear only (exc crag trial gear), only arcane, robust of healthy jewellery traits, no subclassing, and only 80 pts allowed to be spent in the Blue and Red CP trees.

The trials are tuned to 160CP and base game gear. They are beasts when you actually have to play them.

jm42

Gabriel_H wrote: »

jm42 wrote: »

Craglorn trials are literal joke for years and they have interesting mechs

I do guild runs in Crag with conditions: Base game classes and gear only (exc crag trial gear), only arcane, robust of healthy jewellery traits, no subclassing, and only 80 pts allowed to be spent in the Blue and Red CP trees.

The trials are tuned to 160CP and base game gear. They are beasts when you actually have to play them.

yeah with dedicated group you can return fun to everything, that's why my favorite trial in the game is Cloudrest as it still can wipe you no matter how much you parse. but I do think that it should be on ZOS side, to keep content up to date and adjusting it for modern numbers, maybe 1-2 updates behind if they have no resourses but definitely not like what we have now with old group content. There was a lot of creativity back then with encounters design and mechanics that the whole group should be doing, not 2 eager beavers sweating while others just parse

Gabriel_H

jm42 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

jm42 wrote: »

Craglorn trials are literal joke for years and they have interesting mechs

I do guild runs in Crag with conditions: Base game classes and gear only (exc crag trial gear), only arcane, robust of healthy jewellery traits, no subclassing, and only 80 pts allowed to be spent in the Blue and Red CP trees.

The trials are tuned to 160CP and base game gear. They are beasts when you actually have to play them.

yeah with dedicated group you can return fun to everything, that's why my favorite trial in the game is Cloudrest as it still can wipe you no matter how much you parse. but I do think that it should be on ZOS side, to keep content up to date and adjusting it for modern numbers, maybe 1-2 updates behind if they have no resourses but definitely not like what we have now with old group content. There was a lot of creativity back then with encounters design and mechanics that the whole group should be doing, not 2 eager beavers sweating while others just parse

It's not so much updating them for modern numbers, as the trials have a clear progression line for newbie players, but they should certainly raise the scaling based on group CP levels.

Sarannah

Ofcourse you can easily kill trial trash mobs without a tank... trial bosses are a whole different story. This was even possible before arcanist or subclassing or whatever else(in most trials).

There is a reason why players call mobs between trial bosses "trash mobs". When the first MMO's were released, trial fights took (mostly) 15+ minutes per boss, some even 30+ minutes. Having easy mobs in between those trial boss fights, it granted players the ability for some down time, for any number of reasons: to distribute loot, change gear/specs, toilet breaks, to break from the action a bit(tank/healers were stressed hard during most boss fights!), etc. This is the reason these mobs are called trash mobs, and do not require a full raid team.

Granted, ESO is a bit of a newer MMO and the raid bosses (mostly) do not require this much time, but as an MMO they kinda seemed to follow the general MMO rules for creating trials. (you can see this with the roles in the random dungeonfinder and many players not wanting roles as well, sort of a similar thing)

PS: It is funny you call them trash mobs, but don't want these to be trash mobs. Seems conflicting!

Last'One

Sarannah wrote: »

Ofcourse you can easily kill trial trash mobs without a tank... trial bosses are a whole different story. This was even possible before arcanist or subclassing or whatever else(in most trials).

There is a reason why players call mobs between trial bosses "trash mobs". When the first MMO's were released, trial fights took (mostly) 15+ minutes per boss, some even 30+ minutes. Having easy mobs in between those trial boss fights, it granted players the ability for some down time, for any number of reasons: to distribute loot, change gear/specs, toilet breaks, to break from the action a bit(tank/healers were stressed hard during most boss fights!), etc. This is the reason these mobs are called trash mobs, and do not require a full raid team.

Granted, ESO is a bit of a newer MMO and the raid bosses (mostly) do not require this much time, but as an MMO they kinda seemed to follow the general MMO rules for creating trials. (you can see this with the roles in the random dungeonfinder and many players not wanting roles as well, sort of a similar thing)

PS: It is funny you call them trash mobs, but don't want these to be trash mobs. Seems conflicting!

It’s funny how you translate what I said: "a game whose foundation has always been built around half tanks, half healers, and damage dealers", into something like "Seems conflicting."
It’s not conflicting at all. It’s sad, it’s boring, it’s nonsense & it’s 100% BS, the actual state of the game.

Sarannah

Last'One wrote: »

Sarannah wrote: »

Ofcourse you can easily kill trial trash mobs without a tank... trial bosses are a whole different story. This was even possible before arcanist or subclassing or whatever else(in most trials).

There is a reason why players call mobs between trial bosses "trash mobs". When the first MMO's were released, trial fights took (mostly) 15+ minutes per boss, some even 30+ minutes. Having easy mobs in between those trial boss fights, it granted players the ability for some down time, for any number of reasons: to distribute loot, change gear/specs, toilet breaks, to break from the action a bit(tank/healers were stressed hard during most boss fights!), etc. This is the reason these mobs are called trash mobs, and do not require a full raid team.

Granted, ESO is a bit of a newer MMO and the raid bosses (mostly) do not require this much time, but as an MMO they kinda seemed to follow the general MMO rules for creating trials. (you can see this with the roles in the random dungeonfinder and many players not wanting roles as well, sort of a similar thing)

PS: It is funny you call them trash mobs, but don't want these to be trash mobs. Seems conflicting!

It’s funny how you translate what I said: "a game whose foundation has always been built around half tanks, half healers, and damage dealers", into something like "Seems conflicting."
It’s not conflicting at all. It’s sad, it’s boring, it’s nonsense & it’s 100% BS, the actual state of the game.

It is conflicting... you are trying to argue that trash mobs not being able to wipe non-full raid groups are any hint of a 'bad' state of the game.

For one, the state of trash mobs has nothing to do with the state of the game in general, no matter if these trashmobs are pushovers or powerful gods. Had this been about raid bosses or other bosses, you would have had a point.
Second, the foundation of the game is a normal traditional MMO foundation. Though this has eroded somewhat over the years due to powercreep, does not mean the game's foundation isn't one of a traditional MMO. Both with traditional MMO design for raids/dungeons and other MMO features, as well as with traditional MMO roles(healer/tank/dps).

PS: Due to CPs making everyone have atleast some defense on any build/role, it is not strange that DPS can 'tank' trash mobs somewhat/for some time.

Gabriel_H

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: Due to CPs making everyone have atleast some defense on any build/role, it is not strange that DPS can 'tank' trash mobs somewhat/for some time.

Don't know about now but back the day Rogue's could dodge tank boss mobs in WoW.

Last'One

Sarannah wrote: »

It is conflicting... you are trying to argue that trash mobs not being able to wipe non-full raid groups are any hint of a 'bad' state of the game.

For one, the state of trash mobs has nothing to do with the state of the game in general, no matter if these trashmobs are pushovers or powerful gods. Had this been about raid bosses or other bosses, you would have had a point.
Second, the foundation of the game is a normal traditional MMO foundation. Though this has eroded somewhat over the years due to powercreep, does not mean the game's foundation isn't one of a traditional MMO. Both with traditional MMO design for raids/dungeons and other MMO features, as well as with traditional MMO roles(healer/tank/dps).

PS: Due to CPs making everyone have atleast some defense on any build/role, it is not strange that DPS can 'tank' trash mobs somewhat/for some time.

“For one, the state of trash mobs has nothing to do with the state of the game in general.”
You sure? Then I’ll say again what I said before: remove the Arcanist from the game and this ridiculous beam DPS, and let’s see how many "Pugs" from Group Finder can actually kill the trash in trials like vSS, vKA, or vRG.

You’re talking about players who can do proper rotations, I’m talking about pugs from Group Finder. And this isn’t just completely ridiculous, it’s really annoying.

Have you gone into vRG at the Bahsei boss lately? Have you seen how pugs play now? Everyone’s stacking abdominations on Bahsei, and of course… we wipe four times because no one has any idea what to do when they get curses.
And then you say, “For one, the state of trash mobs has nothing to do with the state of the game in general.” Lol.

And for you who say, "You play with pugs, you should expect nothing", I’ll go a step further and say this: pugs are now even worse than before. Because now they don’t even have to follow mechanics anymore, just beam!!!

edit:
And to finish: This is not a traditional MMO, and I don’t care about other MMOs. This is The Elder Scrolls Online, and we (me) play it because it’s The Elder Scrolls. So I expect the game to keep its identity.
You talk about other MMOs, I care about ESO.

Gabriel_H

Last'One wrote: »

Have you gone into vRG at the Bahsei boss lately? Have you seen how pugs play now? Everyone’s stacking abdominations on Bahsei, and of course… we wipe four times because no one has any idea what to do when they get curses.

That's a poor raid lead problem. And while I personally don't use them, as I like to work out the mechs for myself, the number of guides on every boss in the game is more than enough a simple google search will bring them up, which makes it a player problem.

sleepy_worm

Last'One wrote: »

Everyone’s stacking abdominations on Bahsei, and of course… we wipe four times because no one has any idea what to do when they get curses.
...
Because now they don’t even have to follow mechanics anymore, just beam!!!

Surely you can see how this would be interpreted by some to be, to choose a word, conflicting.