The pve meta is the worst I've ever seen in any MMO at any period

percept

Classic wow had more variety in dps choices.

ATM almost every single build utilizes arcanist as their dps. You're either beam or runeblades. That's literally it. That's the meta, 2 builds from 1 class.

If there's any cleave you need at all, you play beam, which means beam dominates. If you're in an optimized group, you may get to play runeblades, or if you're in a pug and don't care about cleave, but almost every fight requires cleave.

2 builds. That's it. That's insane.

Healers are basically the same too, you only really have 2 builds as well. Spc and rojo lol.

Tanks have ton of builds, which is why I think I've gravitated towards tanking.

It's mad that this hasn't been addressed yet. This is the worst build variety I've ever seen in an mmo at any point.

There's a reason why rosters require 4/5/6 arc dps for their comp. The rest are support dps. Absolutely mad.

Just check out ESO logs. It's all arcanist. Even other base classes are either beam or runeblades. Crazy

moderatelyfatman

Yep. This is a problem that has been years in the making.

I often have to explain to newer players why I have two dark elf sorcs. Before hybridization I would have a magicka sorc and a stamina sorc with two completely different skill bars and playstyles. After hybridization the two classes merged into a single meta. When I started there were two dps metas for each class. While things were not perfect (some metas for a class were not very meta, such as the DK or magden), there was a certain enjoyment learning a new playstyle that enhanced the longevity of the game.

Then arcanist came along: it was a class balanced on a spreadsheet but not in actual content. What looked like a new class with a different, simpler rotation became so overpowered that it is now mandatory for many endgame groups.

Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame. What is there left now once you've cleared the endgame content for a player on arcanist except repeating and maybe failing to do the same thing on an alternate class.

The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

percept

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Yep. This is a problem that has been years in the making.

I often have to explain to newer players why I have two dark elf sorcs. Before hybridization I would have a magicka sorc and a stamina sorc with two completely different skill bars and playstyles. After hybridization the two classes merged into a single meta. When I started there were two dps metas for each class. While things were not perfect (some metas for a class were not very meta, such as the DK or magden), there was a certain enjoyment learning a new playstyle that enhanced the longevity of the game.

Then arcanist came along: it was a class balanced on a spreadsheet but not in actual content. What looked like a new class with a different, simpler rotation became so overpowered that it is now mandatory for many endgame groups.

Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame. What is there left now once you've cleared the endgame content for a player on arcanist except repeating and maybe failing to do the same thing on an alternate class.

The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

Dude it's insane. I'm in 2 trial guilds and every single parse submitted on the discords are beam or runeblades. EVERY SINGLE ONE. As far back as I can go.

Orbital78

But you can play how you want at least. You just might be not as good. I don't know that the combat team was switched up enough to make a difference, but maybe the new leadership will direct some changes.

Radiate77

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame...

Agreed with you up until this shameless jab at Subclassing.

Arcanist was the only core DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

The happiest thing is that you have no idea and could absolutely be wrong in your assessment that we will not be getting any more classes. Where you see famine, I see a feast. When they eventually release a new class to sell a Year Pass, everyone… I mean that, EVERYONE will be able to enjoy all three new skill lines instead of having to make an entirely new character to do so.

moderatelyfatman

Radiate77 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame...

Agreed with you up until this shameless jab at Subclassing.

Arcanist was the only parse DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

The happiest thing is that you have no idea and could absolutely be wrong in your assessment that we will not be getting any more classes. Where you see famine, I see a feast. When they eventually release a new class to sell a Year Pass, everyone… I mean that, EVERYONE will be able to enjoy all three new skill lines instead of having to make an entirely new character to do so.

My own past experience would suggest otherwise but the optimist in me hopes that you are right.

percept

Radiate77 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame...

Agreed with you up until this shameless jab at Subclassing.

Arcanist was the only parse DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

The happiest thing is that you have no idea and could absolutely be wrong in your assessment that we will not be getting any more classes. Where you see famine, I see a feast. When they eventually release a new class to sell a Year Pass, everyone… I mean that, EVERYONE will be able to enjoy all three new skill lines instead of having to make an entirely new character to do so.

Has it really been arc for years even before subclassing? I haven't been playing too long, but that's sad if true

RebornV3x

This is what happens when you nerf and try and put out fires for 10 years and be lazy instead of taking time to Buff unused or underutilized skill lines instead of trying to buff other play styles to create more variety ZOS has slowly chipped away other playstyles while not buffing anything to compensate.

Radiate77

percept wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…Now we have subclassing which destroyed the last of the class balancing and variety in endgame...

Agreed with you up until this shameless jab at Subclassing.

Arcanist was the only parse DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

…The saddest thing is that ZOS have totally ruined their future with subclassing: there won't be any new classes with new playstyles any more, just new skill lines to be cannibalized into the new meta.

The happiest thing is that you have no idea and could absolutely be wrong in your assessment that we will not be getting any more classes. Where you see famine, I see a feast. When they eventually release a new class to sell a Year Pass, everyone… I mean that, EVERYONE will be able to enjoy all three new skill lines instead of having to make an entirely new character to do so.

Has it really been arc for years even before subclassing? I haven't been playing too long, but that's sad if true

Yes.

Ghaleb wrote: »

Had a similar discussion lately with a guild mate, who said that Arcanist is not OP and other classes out-dps it easily. So, I checked some logs and this was the result (the screenshots are for Veteran Hardmode Trials - they get "worse", meaning more Arcanist'y in Veteran only trials). This overview shows what also had been discussed endlessly with the Oakensorc-Builds. Dummy-parses can't always be 1:1 translated to concrete content. In the standard Dummy parse, there are other classes, out-DPSing the Arcanist. But in real content, the Arcanist - predominantely - seems to be King of the field currently:

Sunspire:


Rockgrove:


Dreadsailreef:


Kynes:


Sanity's Edge:


So there are some scenarios, where other classes can compete. But when you look at the overview, the picture is pretty clear pretty fast.

I always call the Arcanist the one-bar-build for two-bar-build-players, as it is freakingly easy to simply burn stuff away. Due to the shield of your beam, you can even stand in stupid (not everywhere but more than the usual glass-cannon DD in trials can) without dying and still apply a stupid amount of damage. The only competence you need is positioning and voila.

In my opinion (and your's can of course deviate), high DPS needs to be a question of effort and mastery (wink, wink ZOS), which you need to work for. Hence, I'd say the Arcanist is in conflict with ZOS' own combat "deep dive", they posted December last year.

But of course the expectation was, that the Arcanist would be OP at the beginning. And lo and behold: The Arcanist is rather OP. Now, I think it would be a great course of action, to level the other classes up to what the Arcanist can achieve and with that, re-establishing some balance and relevance for other classes (looking at you Nightblades, Templars, Necros (minus the Buff-Slaves), Sorcs and DD-Wardens).

But knowing ZOS, they will nerf the Arcanist to realms unkown, similar to the Necro, which is meanwhile a pain in the ass to play, as, even when standing right in front of the boss, my blastbones contemplate what to do and you simply can't keep up a rotation while you have to check every freakin' time if your blastbones went off.

So folks. Enjoy the Arcanist while it lasts. Somewhere around next year the first nerfs will trickle in.

From page 1 of a thread back in 2023.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/7940287#Comment_7940287

Renato90085

The main problem is that the max gap is bigger than ever,not meta
old patch maybe nb/sorc/necro/warden max parse 130k arc/dk/temlar max 125k,and in real combat is close
now is meta beam subclass do 168-172k in dummy ,do 180-220k in real combat
other all build still in 100(ha)-135k(pure class or bad subclass who give up Herald or assinssin)

Nemesis7884

its especially kinda weird; you'd think its way easier to balance now since youre essentially balancing skill lines now and not classes and these dont need to be all equal anymore but can be balanced around a rock paper scissor approach which makes combinations also more interesting...

maybe zos has a big overhaul in the works...but given the track record and dwindling resources color me sceptical

PapaTankers

For the love of god zos. Just put skinnycheeks in charge of your combat team already.

SolarRune

I know OP mentioned this, but it's not just about DD, healer meta has been stale for way longer and the recent changes to ulti gen and the nerfing of pillagers has made it even worse.

And to be fair, although tanks are probably in the best place at the moment, when you look at the number of sets we have to pick from, actually having 6ish sets to normally pick from for vet trials isn't really that much choice.

Nemesis7884

PapaTankers wrote: »

For the love of god zos. Just put skinnycheeks in charge of your combat team already.

and or some of the GW2 team...

PapaTankers

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

For the love of god zos. Just put skinnycheeks in charge of your combat team already.

and or some of the GW2 team...

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.
The disconnect between zos and playerbase is so huge that 9/10 new sets they release get no play at all outside of casual questers to whom It doesnt matter anyway what they wear.
Healers have 4 sets in roation for years.
Tanks have like 6 or 7.
Dds have under 10 . Most of them being slight variations of eachother.
Every time zos has made huge changes to the game with an excuse of giving players more options they have done complete opposite.

Sarannah

The problem isn't the meta, the problem is that other classes do not have a main skill similar to fatecarver. Basically subclassing was released too soon, and should have only been released after making a main skill for every class first.

Fatecarver has three major advantages:
1: It is easy to make a build around, as you only have to look at one skill to build-up/empower in your gearing/skilling/CPing.
2: Fatecarver is a jack-of-all-trades and works in any situation. Be it long range or short range, aoe or single target.
3: Low APM, basically anyone can play this type of build as it is an accessible build to play. Meaning more players will use it, especially the ones that won't/can't dualbar/weave/animation cancel.

This is why I feel all classes should have a fatecarver-like skill as their main attack.

PS: There are builds that have some of the above already, just not all three things.
PPS: Don't balance anything, it is only a waste of time and frustrating to the players! (only fix broken/bugged)

percept

Sarannah wrote: »

The problem isn't the meta, the problem is that other classes do not have a main skill similar to fatecarver. Basically subclassing was released too soon, and should have only been released after making a main skill for every class first.

Fatecarver has three major advantages:
1: It is easy to make a build around, as you only have to look at one skill to build-up/empower in your gearing/skilling/CPing.
2: Fatecarver is a jack-of-all-trades and works in any situation. Be it long range or short range, aoe or single target.
3: Low APM, basically anyone can play this type of build as it is an accessible build to play. Meaning more players will use it, especially the ones that won't/can't dualbar/weave/animation cancel.

This is why I feel all classes should have a fatecarver-like skill as their main attack.

PS: There are builds that have some of the above already, just not all three things.
PPS: Don't balance anything, it is only a waste of time and frustrating to the players! (only fix broken/bugged)

That's a really fair point. I enjoy melee builds and I can play a melee build that can somewhat compete with fatecarver... in single target fights lol. It's insane uncapped undiminished AOE damage, with repositioning and a shield. I don't get balance in this game

lostineternity

percept wrote: »

ATM almost every single build utilizes arcanist as their dps. You're either beam or runeblades. That's literally it. That's the meta, 2 builds from 1 class.

"Subclassing will provide infinite diversity" they said - it could be true with different implementation of subclassing, but with lazy uninspired current one it's not. It killed all diversity.

Gabriel_H

Radiate77 wrote: »

Arcanist was the only parse DD two whole years before Subclassing, and before that it was Dragonknight. Subclassing did not create this problem, a lack of equal, balanced options did.

Simply untrue. It wasn't even the top parse DD.

Gabriel_H

lostineternity wrote: »

"Subclassing will provide infinite diversity" they said

It does, but what ZOS continue to fail to understand is that at high difficulty end-game min/maxers rule the roost. You don't need the meta to actually complete a trifecta trial, but players will typically go the route of least resistance.

Of course there is a problem with that player philiosophy, they confuse max damage potential with efficiency. On a spreadsheet Arcanist is king, but some people may not gel with the playstyle, may be bored by it meaning they aren't engaged, and so end up doing worse on an Arcanist than on say a DK or Templar or Sorc etc.

Gabriel_H

PapaTankers wrote: »

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.

... because it's a really silly idea. All sets are not supposed to be all used at end-game. Most of the sets in the game are progression sets, used to get you to the next tier.

This would become far more apparent if ZOS were to, for example, lock later content until you complete the earlier content. But obviously they don't so anyone can go to any content and get the latest desired set. If people played in chronolgically order, waiting a year before going on to the next Chapter/DLC then the sets as they are hold up.

That's not to say there aren't bumps in that road, with SPC (a fairly early set) still being the king of healing sets, but that's more to do with later sets not progressing like tank and DD sets do.

colossalvoids

PapaTankers wrote: »

For the love of god zos. Just put skinnycheeks in charge of your combat team already.

Don't think the insertion of "our people" would be helpful replacing devs that were an integral part of the game for the better part of the last what, almost two decades of development process for some?

We already had couple of very influential and more than capable people hired by ZOS, it didn't helped ultimately. The abolishing of programs like Class Representatives is an issue though, as those were in a sense our safeguard against things we're experiencing nowadays because it u35, subclassing etc. as even though NDA's we know from some of them that some decisions the ZOS team proposed and discussed with them were absolutely, astonishingly out of touch and destructive. Without such a safeguard we had previously there's literally no way of getting anything scrapped early as their policy of not touching things that's already went live server and PTS nowadays is purely cosmetic marketing tool.

If they want our trust, money and participation back we need some similarly structured team back in some form or another, obviously a purely cosmetic/scapegoat team won't do either. That's where people like skinny would do wonders, if they're still even interested or have passion for ZOS's product. Doubt most old reps would wanna go back to it after all the things at the end of the system and treatment of some prominent community members, uninspiring dev talks etc.

percept

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.

... because it's a really silly idea. All sets are not supposed to be all used at end-game. Most of the sets in the game are progression sets, used to get you to the next tier.

This would become far more apparent if ZOS were to, for example, lock later content until you complete the earlier content. But obviously they don't so anyone can go to any content and get the latest desired set. If people played in chronolgically order, waiting a year before going on to the next Chapter/DLC then the sets as they are hold up.

That's not to say there aren't bumps in that road, with SPC (a fairly early set) still being the king of healing sets, but that's more to do with later sets not progressing like tank and DD sets do.

As a new player, I find it hilarious how tide born, the best dps set in the game and monomyth, the best pvp mythic in the game, were released with this season pass lol. Ngl monomyth got me to buy the season pass. They got me when I still had the twinkle in my eye and didn't know any better

THAT is some pretty disgusting p2w marketing

Gabriel_H

PapaTankers wrote: »

For the love of god zos. Just put skinnycheeks in charge of your combat team already.

Lets not compound the error.

SolarRune

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.

... because it's a really silly idea. All sets are not supposed to be all used at end-game. Most of the sets in the game are progression sets, used to get you to the next tier.

This would become far more apparent if ZOS were to, for example, lock later content until you complete the earlier content. But obviously they don't so anyone can go to any content and get the latest desired set. If people played in chronolgically order, waiting a year before going on to the next Chapter/DLC then the sets as they are hold up.

That's not to say there aren't bumps in that road, with SPC (a fairly early set) still being the king of healing sets, but that's more to do with later sets not progressing like tank and DD sets do.

To be honest I would love it if sets were that way, and have talked about it often with friends and guildies, but it just doesn't work that way. Tideborne is on a par with deadly, both of which are really easy to get, so its not just SPC. It needs to go further than just having perfected and unperfected version of trial gear.

GloatingSwine

Sarannah wrote: »

The problem isn't the meta, the problem is that other classes do not have a main skill similar to fatecarver. Basically subclassing was released too soon, and should have only been released after making a main skill for every class first.

Fatecarver has three major advantages:
1: It is easy to make a build around, as you only have to look at one skill to build-up/empower in your gearing/skilling/CPing.
2: Fatecarver is a jack-of-all-trades and works in any situation. Be it long range or short range, aoe or single target.
3: Low APM, basically anyone can play this type of build as it is an accessible build to play. Meaning more players will use it, especially the ones that won't/can't dualbar/weave/animation cancel.

This is why I feel all classes should have a fatecarver-like skill as their main attack.

PS: There are builds that have some of the above already, just not all three things.
PPS: Don't balance anything, it is only a waste of time and frustrating to the players! (only fix broken/bugged)

Fatecarver being a 4 second channel also means that in order for it to not be impossibly behind all other main damage skills it has to have all the power of the light attacks you could have been weaving with built into its tooltip. So if you're less than 100% perfect with weaving it will give you better damage uptime.

Also its' skill line is all-offense-all-the-time, with only really a source of crit and crit damage missing given that it has both high pen and brutality/sorcery. Of all the classes the Arcanist is the most thoroughly split between damage/heals/tanking on its skill lines with no crossover passives at all.

PapaTankers

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.

... because it's a really silly idea. All sets are not supposed to be all used at end-game. Most of the sets in the game are progression sets, used to get you to the next tier.

This would become far more apparent if ZOS were to, for example, lock later content until you complete the earlier content. But obviously they don't so anyone can go to any content and get the latest desired set. If people played in chronolgically order, waiting a year before going on to the next Chapter/DLC then the sets as they are hold up.

That's not to say there aren't bumps in that road, with SPC (a fairly early set) still being the king of healing sets, but that's more to do with later sets not progressing like tank and DD sets do.

Im not asking to for every set to be meta. Im asking every set to serve a purpose other than just being bloat.

Even if we were to follow chronological order then what excuse would be adding useless sets to new trials and dungeon?

All those sets we have in the game now and there are still very little actually decent options. There is almost no need for theorycrafting because all alternatives are nothing more than bloatwear.

PapaTankers

colossalvoids wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

For the love of god zos. Just put skinnycheeks in charge of your combat team already.

Don't think the insertion of "our people" would be helpful replacing devs that were an integral part of the game for the better part of the last what, almost two decades of development process for some?

We already had couple of very influential and more than capable people hired by ZOS, it didn't helped ultimately. The abolishing of programs like Class Representatives is an issue though, as those were in a sense our safeguard against things we're experiencing nowadays because it u35, subclassing etc. as even though NDA's we know from some of them that some decisions the ZOS team proposed and discussed with them were absolutely, astonishingly out of touch and destructive. Without such a safeguard we had previously there's literally no way of getting anything scrapped early as their policy of not touching things that's already went live server and PTS nowadays is purely cosmetic marketing tool.

If they want our trust, money and participation back we need some similarly structured team back in some form or another, obviously a purely cosmetic/scapegoat team won't do either. That's where people like skinny would do wonders, if they're still even interested or have passion for ZOS's product. Doubt most old reps would wanna go back to it after all the things at the end of the system and treatment of some prominent community members, uninspiring dev talks etc.

Them being integral part of the community for past decade doesnt mean they have done a good job. Everything since u35 has lead us to where we are at now.
If not skinnycheeks, then there is certianly an argument to be made for restructuring still.

Quackery

Hybridization and subclassing has ruined the game. Classes have no identity, and it's honestly depressing. They've killed playing as a magicka sorcerer by destroying the morphs (making them stamina based). ZOS should have created more in-between classes, like battle-mage etc. It's just sad that arcanist beam is everywhere when doing the writhing wall defence fights.

Gabriel_H

SolarRune wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.

... because it's a really silly idea. All sets are not supposed to be all used at end-game. Most of the sets in the game are progression sets, used to get you to the next tier.

This would become far more apparent if ZOS were to, for example, lock later content until you complete the earlier content. But obviously they don't so anyone can go to any content and get the latest desired set. If people played in chronolgically order, waiting a year before going on to the next Chapter/DLC then the sets as they are hold up.

That's not to say there aren't bumps in that road, with SPC (a fairly early set) still being the king of healing sets, but that's more to do with later sets not progressing like tank and DD sets do.

To be honest I would love it if sets were that way, and have talked about it often with friends and guildies, but it just doesn't work that way. Tideborne is on a par with deadly, both of which are really easy to get, so its not just SPC. It needs to go further than just having perfected and unperfected version of trial gear.

Like I said, there are outliers.

Side Note: I would disagree that Tideborn is on par with deadly given they apply to different damage types.

Gabriel_H

PapaTankers wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

PapaTankers wrote: »

I dont know about guild wars 2 as I havent played it, but I do know skinnycheeks spent months to rebalance every old set in the game. Only for zos to reject him.

... because it's a really silly idea. All sets are not supposed to be all used at end-game. Most of the sets in the game are progression sets, used to get you to the next tier.

This would become far more apparent if ZOS were to, for example, lock later content until you complete the earlier content. But obviously they don't so anyone can go to any content and get the latest desired set. If people played in chronolgically order, waiting a year before going on to the next Chapter/DLC then the sets as they are hold up.

That's not to say there aren't bumps in that road, with SPC (a fairly early set) still being the king of healing sets, but that's more to do with later sets not progressing like tank and DD sets do.

Im not asking to for every set to be meta. Im asking every set to serve a purpose other than just being bloat.

Even if we were to follow chronological order then what excuse would be adding useless sets to new trials and dungeon?

All those sets we have in the game now and there are still very little actually decent options. There is almost no need for theorycrafting because all alternatives are nothing more than bloatwear.

They do serve a purpose. They are progression sets or they fulfill a niche role or playstyle, which is in keeping with ZOS' diversity design intention. Example: A bleed damage build isn't meta, but some people like to play that way, so we have Aegis Caller.