What Ruined Combat In ESO?

HalvarIronfist · October 16

So I want to preface this by saying I've been here since the beginning. I've played since the OG closed beta, and I have a deep love for this game that includes content creation. However, with the state of combat balance in ESO, I needed to stop in for a minute and just bring up some stuff.

https://youtu.be/CseicXC0A9M

A TLDR for those who don't want to watch it, summarizing about 12 minutes of yap:

I think 2019's replacement of Eric Wrobel with Brian Wheeler as the lead combat developer was probably a monumental mistake as combat has completely been simplified, homogenized, and sterilized beyond any recognition of what it once was. Scribing and Subclassing killed any last semblance of "class identity" and "class balance".

Pure classes are basically worthless now. Pure classing is a numerical detriment to your performance in mid to late game content.

Under Brian Wheeler, an extensive amount of combat reworks, skill reworks, fundamental changes, and even random "out of nowhere" changes get made with seemingly little response to the community that has to end up playing with them.

These patches include, but are not limited to Updates: 21, 23, 24, 33, 35, 41, 46, and the upcoming/PTS for 48, which includes (AFAIK) no substantial changes to the broken mess of subclassing balance released in U46.

Let me know what you think!

DMuehlhausen · October 16

Not fixing animation canceling and basically making every class something with Arcanist

Avran_Sylt · October 16

What ruined combat in ESO?

How about it still hasn't changed much "input variety" since launch (except for the introduction of Arcanist) (PvE perspective)

Apply buffs, Apply DoTs (ST only on bosses not chaff), Then spam your spammable until execute

DK has an interesting thing where Power Lash is more effective on Off-balanced targets, one of the few combo abilities in the game (if using another skill to set a target off-balance). (I want to say only combo ability, apart from Arcanist). However in group content and on bosses this is more or less out of your control.

Maelstrom Daggers were cool, but got nerfed.

Then they introduced the Arcanists crux mechanic, whereby using other skills, you amplify another skill . (still think Beam is overtuned even though I like such a mechanic).

I'd say that the Nightblade positional crit is cool, except in most group content the tank is already getting you behind the target, and overland 6.6% crit chance is negligible.

Marto · October 16

Do you remember when people were running 10 different DoT effects and no spammables, so they could get Valkyn Skoria to proc as often as possible?

Or when Sorcs in PVP could get 20s shields in the 100k health range?

Or when every patch 1 class would be far above any others, to a degree much larger than even the biggest gaps between Arcanist and Necro in 2023-2025?

Or when PVP performance was considerably worse, because of all the proc calculations?

This was all the fault of Eric Wrobel.

While you can argue that his tenure as lead combat designer had more varied and interesting build opportunities, it was also far less balanced, and far less sustainable for the performance and health of the game.

MorallyBipolar · October 16

ZOS switching focus to the crown store and cosmetics. Skill styles, custom actions, housing, companions, ToT and other shinies that don't really fit in the game in the first place are a distraction and don't keep the game healthy. The game was so much better the first 5 years than it is today.

QB1 · October 16

I like the direction with scribing, subclassing, and skill styles. However, we need consistent balance/tuning updates to help keep things fresh. Tired of seeing arcanist beam in PvE and deep fissure/merciless resolve on every build in PvP.

fizzybeef · October 16

hybridisation and subclassing and who ever is in charge for that

Udrath · October 16

Sounds about right. Greymoore came out in 2020 and was when the big shift towards hybridisation began. They reworked a ton of sets to work with all builds and scale off highest stat. This is when people began running 40k hp wardens with 3 proc sets I think. The PvP experience between elsweyr and greymoore was huge. Proc set builds were everywhere in greymoore, and I thought it couldn’t get any worse then.

fizzybeef · October 16

Udrath wrote: »

and I thought it couldn’t get any worse then.

Lmao we have been proven wrong with that

Lord_Hev · October 16

100% agree. The combat balance changes weren't great in the 2017 - 2019 era either, but it was LEAGUES better then 2022 - 2025.

Marto wrote: »

Or when Sorcs in PVP could get 20s shields in the 100k health range?

Quite the Hyperbolic statement. Sorc shields under no circumstance even as emperor could ever achieve 100k. The penultimate as a 80k max magicka sorc emperor I could achieve was a combined shield stack of 30k. As -Emperor-. The average shield stack has always hovered around 10 - 12k hardened ward and 8 - 9k harness/annulment aka you would need 55k+ magicka(for it's relative time period) to barely push 20k combined shields in total.

AlienatedGoat · October 16

TBH, the combat in ESO has always been uninspired. From the start, the high APM and animation cancelling have made combat a slog for most people. I don't know anyone who plays the game for the combat - most find it perfunctory at best.

Stamicka · October 16

I think the downfall of ESO's combat has been an unfortunate mixture of things from the start. It's not nearly as simple as a leadership position change. You also seem to be forgetting that hybridization and the standardized values that led to homogenization were largely part of Gilliam's design philosophy.

So first, I think part of the issue is an identity crisis. There's ESO as an MMORPG and ESO as an Elder Scrolls game. It seems like at some point the developers decided to lean more into the Elder Scrolls part. Over the years ESO has shifted into a more casual solo focused game that just happens to be in a shared world with others. They've really taken a step back from ESO's original MMORPG elements and embraced the "play as you want/you belong here" mantra. I think that scribing, subclassing, and hybridization were done in an attempt to make the game feel more like an Elder Scrolls game. Balance seems like a secondary concern or an afterthought to just getting those features added.

Another big part of all of this is accessibility gone wrong. ESO was in a pretty difficult position in terms of it's combat system. On one hand it had a faithful player base who loved the fast no cooldown combat with animation canceling and bar swapping. On the other hand there's a group of people who are used to slower cooldown based combat. Another thing to consider is that a large portion of gamers have gotten to the age where ESO's combat system is hard on their hands. I've ran into quite a few older ESO players who say that their hands just can't do it or they have arthritis/other joint issues. I truly think that there are people out there who want to participate, but just can't for physical reasons. ZOS rightfully doesn't want to leave people out.

To be fair to ZOS, keeping the high Actions Per Minute (APM) crowd happy while keeping the game accessible is hard, but I do think it's doable. Unfortunately, ZOS went about accessibility the wrong way. For example, Oakensoul was meant to allow for lower APM playstyles and eliminate the need for bar swapping. The Arcanist beam + Velothi also seems like it was meant to offer a lower APM play style for those who physically had trouble with ESO's combat. ZOS also tries to keep the game as easy as possible. I also think that the massive increase in DPS and ease of achieving it over the years was likely very intentional.

A lot of combat changes start to make sense when you look at it through the lens of ZOS trying to improve the game's accessibility and combat participation rates. It's a noble goal, but in my opinion accessibility has worsened in other ways due to their decisions. A lot of things that were intended to improve accessibility ended up completely over performing compared to everything else (look at the arcanist beam). Making things overly easy, nerfing combat and simplifying mechanics for everyone isn't a good approach to accessibility though. Instead they should've kept ESO's original core combat intact while offering a balanced alternative that still required skill, an understanding of mechanics, and good timing. Heavy attack builds were close, but missed the mark. Anyway, I could say much more about all of this, but I made a post about it in the past for those that are interested: Here.

Another big factor involved in the game's declining combat system is game performance. In the "year of performance" (2019) ZOS made some changes to block, block canceling, and more. Also in the next upcoming update ZOS made some animation changes to use less memory. Even though it's states that these things won't have an impact on the feel of the game, they do. Combat has felt much slower, less responsive, and different since 2019... it never quite recovered.

There's probably even more reasons that I'm forgetting right now. The current design philosophy from leadership has definitely played a big role though.

TLDR: The decline of ESO's combat comes from:
1. Trying to make the game more Elder Scrolls like
2. Attempts to make the combat more physically accessible with lower Actions Per Minute
3. Failed attempts to improve the game's performance

Probably more... but this post is too long.

Renato90085 · October 16

scribing and subclass

Lord_Hev · October 16

Stamicka wrote: »

2. Attempts to make the combat more physically accessible with lower Actions Per Minute
[/b]

This is a weird one, I see this -sentiment- brought up in different paradoxical ways over the years. But if we actually look at gameplay from before 2020, it's almost night and day difference. A constancy: the gameplay over the last 6 years has only gotten faster and -faster-. Arcanist was designed as "low cpm" but actual gameplay pvp & pve group content is all FAST FAST FAST and very twitchy-reflex like apm. If zos is trying to lower the apm, they are doing something severely wrong for the past 6 years... lol.

I have no problem with weaving, even in 2014 where light attack > skill > repeat in perfect sequence was an enigma for the vast majority of players, I had caught onto that kind of flow from the very beginning of the game just organically figuring it out. But I am seeing a pattern with the downfall of this game's combat feel, catering to this higher apm. Or maybe it's all the proc-sets making it feel like that, either way the actual flow of combat has gotten significantly faster and bloated compared to pre 2019. Little elephant in the room I rarely see brought up in discussions around here. People complained about animation cancelling, but I had no issue watching my opponents and understanding what they were doing in their offense and defense against me. Now-adays it's just "noisy" and blurred with multitude of visual effects and proc-sets firing off in tandem from just a single player, let alone multiple. And this noise extends to PvE, in raids via all the players, and even the npc mechanics and abilities. Very noisy and overly flashy to the point that counter-play is so obfuscated. Just in time for consoles to get all the relevant pve notification addons!

colossalvoids · October 16

Agree here entirely, for some reason a lot if stuff being attributed to Gilliam but he wasn't a new combat lead but more of a cannibalised community's voice for the patch notes tone in the end, who was blamed for everything despite not having the reach Brian had as a lead.

Stamicka · October 16

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

2. Attempts to make the combat more physically accessible with lower Actions Per Minute
[/b]

This is a weird one, I see this -sentiment- brought up in different paradoxical ways over the years. But if we actually look at gameplay from before 2020, it's almost night and day difference. A constancy: the gameplay over the last 6 years has only gotten faster and -faster-. Arcanist was designed as "low cpm" but actual gameplay pvp & pve group content is all FAST FAST FAST and very twitchy-reflex like apm. If zos is trying to lower the apm, they are doing something severely wrong for the past 6 years... lol.

I’m not sure where you’re experiencing faster combat honestly. The gameplay of an Arcanist in PvE feels way slower and less fluid to me than something like an old Nightblade build.

Anyway, I’m not really speculating. Lowering APM and making the game more accessible were things that Gilliam outright stated as a goal:

The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve.

…

Between this (DOT durations) and the engagement of weaving, this creates a reality where high actions per minute (APM) is required to be effective, as well as a robust rotation to keep as many of these effects up as possible.

…

We recognize this will create a lot of changes in how you optimize your builds and how you play them, but it is our hope that by the end of the transition to these standards, the game will be more enjoyable and accessible to everyone.

These are direct quotes. Source here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview/p1

Vaqual · October 16

Neglect of balancing in the wake of the U35 change cadence "slow-down", clinging on for too long to uninspired power distributions and budgets within (in parts flawed) classes rather than skill lines and FotM sales-mentality have done far more harm than any change in design philosophy.

Cross-healing, mitigation stacking, movement desync, proc burst loading and narrow metas could all be addressed immediately through purely numerical adjustments. It is simply a lack of interest and engagement, maybe even complacency or intent, that make todays combat feel stale and unfair.

And to be honest, I can see how a player base, that in large parts measures changes by outlier performance rather than objective margins, can contribute to such an attitude. For every topic you'll find at least one guy who wants to have his cake and eat it, too.

Ultimately, combat needs to be adequately fit the RPG setting and offer a fair and varied experience. You can't compromise on A to push B. You need to deliver both.

Alchimiste1 · October 16

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

2. Attempts to make the combat more physically accessible with lower Actions Per Minute
[/b]

This is a weird one, I see this -sentiment- brought up in different paradoxical ways over the years. But if we actually look at gameplay from before 2020, it's almost night and day difference. A constancy: the gameplay over the last 6 years has only gotten faster and -faster-. Arcanist was designed as "low cpm" but actual gameplay pvp & pve group content is all FAST FAST FAST and very twitchy-reflex like apm. If zos is trying to lower the apm, they are doing something severely wrong for the past 6 years... lol.

I have no problem with weaving, even in 2014 where light attack > skill > repeat in perfect sequence was an enigma for the vast majority of players, I had caught onto that kind of flow from the very beginning of the game just organically figuring it out. But I am seeing a pattern with the downfall of this game's combat feel, catering to this higher apm. Or maybe it's all the proc-sets making it feel like that, either way the actual flow of combat has gotten significantly faster and bloated compared to pre 2019. Little elephant in the room I rarely see brought up in discussions around here. People complained about animation cancelling, but I had no issue watching my opponents and understanding what they were doing in their offense and defense against me. Now-adays it's just "noisy" and blurred with multitude of visual effects and proc-sets firing off in tandem from just a single player, let alone multiple. And this noise extends to PvE, in raids via all the players, and even the npc mechanics and abilities. Very noisy and overly flashy to the point that counter-play is so obfuscated. Just in time for consoles to get all the relevant pve notification addons!

A combination of proc sets and subclassing tbh.
Fighting someone using things like null arca, kjalnar, sub assault,spectral bow, a stun like javelin/fossilize/streak etc that leaves basically no counterplay. I can definitely see that being overwhelming to newer pvpers. Heck even as an experienced pvp it was hard to keep track of all that.

Aliniel · October 16

Personally, I feel like under Wheeler's leadership there's not even a hint of trying to balance things out. Two updates since the game shattering multiclassing update and still not a single balance update. They could do small iterations of bi-weekly or monthly tweaks but nope - nothing. What we got in U47 was barely worth mentioning. We still have hordes of people running around with beams, melting mobs under second.

I really think a change in combat philosophy is very much needed. Whether that means a change in leadership is beyond me.

noneatza · October 16

Aight why not, i'll bite, i will include a TL;DR at the end.

Eso combat was "ruined" due to the ridiculous dumbing down of it to please the players that actually don't really care all that much about said combat. Basically the "loud minority" effect.

By said dumbing down i'm referring to:
Nerfing LA damage directly (and indirectly through the vma staff nerfs)
Completely killing build diversity through hybridisation (they must have noticed a teeny tiny drop in revenue since you had to have 2 characters for every class no? magdk and stamdk, magnb and stamnb, etc, those char slots cost money)
Introducing even more dumbed down mechanics such as fatecarver & velothi
Adding scribing and subclassing, further reducing build diversity

Don't get me wrong, damage is now higher than ever and seeing big pretty numbers on my dps chart is fun. But it gets really stale, way back then i could just be in 3 raid groups on 3 different classes and game would always feel fresh. Today? I have one dd and two tanks, that's it, rest of my characters have just become daily writ slaves.

Classwise all raidgroups look the same now, whereas in the past you needed some of everything, builds also look the same now between all the dds, except if you have a runeblades(high apm build) enjoyer but those are a rare breed since a lot of them quit. I've been around mmos my entire life since i'm a nerd and i've seen this happen with different titles, even though the non-tryhard share of the players is much more massive, they actually don't care all that much about said combat changes, especially in a game like ESO which has many many hours of content barely dependent on being efficient in combat. Like, take some of the few non-casual players that stuck through to today and ask them what happened, they can point out the changes. Take a 3.6k cp questingboi that's been here since 2015 and hasn't done a trial in his life and ask him the same question, chances are bro has no idea what you're talking about and is probably running winter's respite on what he thinks is a dd with earthen heart+daedric summoning+bone tyrant, while most importantly, having fun anyway.
I'm not saying catering to the largest part of the community is a bad thing, no no no, i'm trying to say that shafting the people that enjoyed the combat in order to make said crowd happy is a bad thing, especially since they actually don't care.
Games should have a skill curve, ESO especially since the game is massive you can be efficient and have fun WHEREVER you are on this curve, just adding oakensoul to 2020 eso would have been plenty good.

TL;DR: excessively dumbing down the combat to lower the skill ceiling to please the casual crowd which doesn't actually care about said combat leads to a slow drain of the actual dedicated players

Lord_Hev · October 16

Stamicka wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

2. Attempts to make the combat more physically accessible with lower Actions Per Minute
[/b]

This is a weird one, I see this -sentiment- brought up in different paradoxical ways over the years. But if we actually look at gameplay from before 2020, it's almost night and day difference. A constancy: the gameplay over the last 6 years has only gotten faster and -faster-. Arcanist was designed as "low cpm" but actual gameplay pvp & pve group content is all FAST FAST FAST and very twitchy-reflex like apm. If zos is trying to lower the apm, they are doing something severely wrong for the past 6 years... lol.

I’m not sure where you’re experiencing faster combat honestly. The gameplay of an Arcanist in PvE feels way slower and less fluid to me than something like an old Nightblade build.

Anyway, I’m not really speculating. Lowering APM and making the game more accessible were things that Gilliam outright stated as a goal:

The closer the gap between the low and high end, the easier it is to create content that can accommodate a wider audience, while making more natural progression points for those looking to improve.

…

Between this (DOT durations) and the engagement of weaving, this creates a reality where high actions per minute (APM) is required to be effective, as well as a robust rotation to keep as many of these effects up as possible.

…

We recognize this will create a lot of changes in how you optimize your builds and how you play them, but it is our hope that by the end of the transition to these standards, the game will be more enjoyable and accessible to everyone.

These are direct quotes. Source here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/610438/update-35-combat-preview/p1

Just to clarify, I wasn't necessarily disagreeing. But just wanted to point out something I've felt when looking back at older gameplay footage. On the user-end something like an Arcanist is lower apm, but what about the receiving-end? Fate-carver ticks every 0.3 seconds as a spammable which is "high apm." This is certainly more of a pvp aspect pain-point, but even in pve, compare the mechanics of a trial like Ossein Cage or Lucent Citadel to a trial like Helra Citadel. Extreme examples, but it helps illustrate the point I was trying to make with the bloated and fast-twitchy like feel of "lots of stuff" going on in a single fight. You can even compare it to content like vAS +2 which has a lot of mental juggling but still feels far less bloated compared to newest trials. This is also evident in dungeon design as well. I personally find the newest trials enjoyable, but I still feel like it has this bloat and fast-paced issue. It's no wonder they also tend to feel very unforgiving for less experienced players trying to dip their toes in that sort of content. Feels jarring if their intent was to promote accessibility.

Radiate77 · October 16

Yeah, I’m not gonna bash Brian, he has signed off on some of my favorite things for ESO, like Subclassing and Scribing… that said, after Update 35, major balance changes screeched to a stop.

All of the wrong lessons were taken from the backlash, and in typical ZOS fashion, we went from a quarterly feast… into a famine. We have all been asking for balance to be done with a chisel, not a sledgehammer, yet at least with the sledgehammer you had something different to enjoy every 3 months, now we can’t even have that.

Now, I happened to be around for the lighting patch and the first “year of performance”… and am genuinely confused as to why Wrobel is now being glazed? Are we going to forget that under his lead magicka Dragonknight became a meme, Sorcs were perpetually streaking around 1-tapping everyone with Overload and god mode wards? Stam Dragonknights could roll dodge indefinitely, Nightblades could just Ambush you to death as Empower kept empowering? How about when Sun Shield made you kill everyone with just one-button?

That’s just PvP, how about PvE when Morrowind released and combat was 25% heavy attacking to get your resources back as sustain was nerfed entirely? Combat was better when we couldn’t use our abilities? This OP has to be bait. 😂

AvalonRanger · October 16

What Ruined Combat In ESO?

1. No elevation mechanics --> Ruin level design.
2. Automatic projectile --> Ruin balance and level design.
3. Too much wide collision judgement for melee weapon. --> Ruin balance and reality.
4. NPC enemy doesn't escape from AoE. --> Ruin reality
5. Too many buff style makes people confused. --> should be united more simply.
6. Too many meta dividing player building mech everywhere. --> should be united more simply between PVE and PVP.
(Ex. Merge Impenetration and reinforce into just "armor".)
7. Too many flat ground mech everywhere. --> Ruin creative level design and reality.
8. Too many nonsense sudden death mech everywhere in 4 player dungeon and 12 player Trial.
(--> Just make it cleaver visual design, or remove it.)
9. Too many abstract UI design makes people confused. Especially newbies.
10. There're too much queue time for DPS of rand. (Need to increase tank population)

And 11... Most of those problem never solved from 2014. Or getting worse at some of them.

AvalonRanger · October 16

AvalonRanger wrote: »

What Ruined Combat In ESO?

1. No elevation mechanics --> Ruin level design.
2. Automatic projectile --> Ruin balance and level design.
3. Too much wide collision judgement for melee weapon. --> Ruin balance and reality.
4. NPC enemy doesn't escape from AoE. --> Ruin reality
5. Too many buff style makes people confused. --> should be united more simply.
6. Too many meta dividing player building mech everywhere. --> should be united more simply between PVE and PVP.
(Ex. Merge Impenetration and reinforce into just "armor".)
7. Too many flat ground mech everywhere. --> Ruin creative level design and reality.
8. Too many nonsense sudden death mech everywhere in 4 player dungeon and 12 player Trial.
(--> Just make it cleaver visual design, or remove it.)
9. Too many abstract UI design makes people confused. Especially newbies.
10. There're too much queue time for DPS of rand. (Need to increase tank population)

And 11... Most of those problem never solved from 2014. Or getting worse at some of them.

Ah! And more.

12. Don't make bullet sponge Veteran boss anymore.
13. Don't make running simulator super long dungeon anymore.

Veinblood1965 · October 16

I've played since the Summerset release.

To me it is the constant changes. I get so tired of getting a build I am happy with, researching, building it, learning to play it. My PvP nightblade as an example. I spent a long time perfecting it, it takes a while. Then the recent changes to cloak although not unplayable just put me off. Same happened with my Sorc long ago, then my DK. I of course just dealt with it and either adjusted or played a new character. I just got tiiiiiirrrreeeeed. The game slowly with all these constant changes no longer was a game, it began to get frustrating. The subclassing came out. I hate it, I mean really just hate it. The GRIND most of all, really? Two skill points needed to apply a skill change? That just felt like a slap in the face, HERE we designed this entirely new combat style we think you will love but we hid it behind a skill point wall. Just GIVE us the darnsubclassing without a lot of grind for Pete's sake. I honestly since day one of subclassing have not played at all. I log in, do my dailies, my writs, chat a bit(to those few friends who have not quit) and log off.

All that being said, a high majority of my friends have quit due to updates within the last year. I saw the golden pursuits that came out this week and had enough. I un-subbed last night. I'm done and will not be back. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game that it used to be. It's no longer fun to me.

I thought about this very thing last night. Unsubbing was not easy, I've been playing for years. I thought about at what point was it I started to not have fun. It was the NB cloak. I spent a LONG time perfecting my play, at that point after that change I just don't feel like investing the "time" in something knowing it is not going to last.

Aliniel · October 16

One thing I never understood about ESO is the dread of changes.

The most successful MMORPG of all times, WoW, has a regular change of combat. Classes get tweaked, redesigned, rebalanced, new mechanics are added, old removed... And this keeps the game fresh! This happens with every expansion (~2-3 year cycle). In between that, on patches you get regular balances where numbers get adjusted. And they do this on I-don't-even-know-how-many-classes-and-specs-anymore. Is it perfect? No. But there's enough of diversity to actually find something you enjoy.

We have had beam meta for how long now?

When was the last time a class got truly reworked? Some of the most useless skills Sorc had back on launch are still around. Short of some morph changes, all the skills are still here. None of them were ever completely replaced. Does ZOS consider ESO to be perfectly designed all those years ago? Yeah, sure...

ShadowPaladin · October 16

What ruined combat in eso?

The same thing what ruined combat in quite some other games - the players or at least some of them

.

Especially those who run after meta over and over again and exclude everyone else from group content because of some parsed numbers and not using meta setups.
In addition to that players who only want to do *pew pew*, rush through stuff and don't play mechanics also did their part in ruining the combat (forcing the devs to dumb it down).

Panthermic · October 16

ShadowPaladin wrote: »

What ruined combat in eso?

The same thing what ruined combat in quite some other games - the players or at least some of them .

Especially those who run after meta over and over again and exclude everyone else from group content because of some parsed numbers and not using meta setups.
In addition to that players who only want to do *pew pew*, rush through stuff and don't play mechanics also did their part in ruining the combat (forcing the devs to dumb it down).

Don't forget those who manage ESO as their next, between Skyrim and TES 6, single-player game, and demanding it to be turned into that. (There was a post not long ago where someone complained that other players are visible in his/her game.) And the devs who are listening more and more to this crowd.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · October 16

This video misses all the problems we had prior to 2019.

Personally I think the whole vision for classes and combat at ZOS has been poor since Nick was replaced as combat lead,
The exact same videos were being made about the class decisions under Wrobel too. Just different problems and meta's.

At launch we used to have unique classes that had strengths and weaknesses. The whole 'Play how you want to' philosophy has been morphed to 'play what you want and it must be as good'. Before you could play a DK healer or a Sorc healer but Templar was just better so if you wanted to minmax you'd roll a templar. Classes had unique benefits and strengths.
Now we've gone so far down the homogenisation route that basically everything is the same with a colour/animation reskin.

I don't think that boils down to a combat lead issue and more of a general design philosophy issue.

moderatelyfatman · October 16

Aliniel wrote: »

One thing I never understood about ESO is the dread of changes.

The most successful MMORPG of all times, WoW, has a regular change of combat. Classes get tweaked, redesigned, rebalanced, new mechanics are added, old removed... And this keeps the game fresh! This happens with every expansion (~2-3 year cycle). In between that, on patches you get regular balances where numbers get adjusted. And they do this on I-don't-even-know-how-many-classes-and-specs-anymore. Is it perfect? No. But there's enough of diversity to actually find something you enjoy.

We have had beam meta for how long now?

When was the last time a class got truly reworked? Some of the most useless skills Sorc had back on launch are still around. Short of some morph changes, all the skills are still here. None of them were ever completely replaced. Does ZOS consider ESO to be perfectly designed all those years ago? Yeah, sure...

It's not just change that the players are afraid of but the extent and how random it is at times.

Most players aren't going to be too upset if their meta builds one year later are no longer meta but within 5% of the new meta. That is what we call tweaking.

But losing 30% of your dps after a major patch is not tweaking, it's death. After Patch 35 my stamwarden was no longer viable for prog runs and our nightblade in the prog simply gave up because he couldn't play his favourite class any more.

Werewolf tanking which was a niche build got destroyed not because it was overpowered but because the devs didn't approve of the playstyle. Players enjoyed it and it was not ruining the game in any way and yet the devs burned it to the ground!

And how many necro mains gave up after Blastbones became a buff skill?

Calling some of the tone deaf and catastrophic changes that the devs have done to ESO 'tweaks' is like calling a Category 5 Hurricane 'mild relandscaping'.

BTW: I do play other MMOs and I don't fear the changes they make there because I trust those devs to use a scalpel and not a wrecking ball.

Veinblood1965 · October 16

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Aliniel wrote: »

One thing I never understood about ESO is the dread of changes.

The most successful MMORPG of all times, WoW, has a regular change of combat. Classes get tweaked, redesigned, rebalanced, new mechanics are added, old removed... And this keeps the game fresh! This happens with every expansion (~2-3 year cycle). In between that, on patches you get regular balances where numbers get adjusted. And they do this on I-don't-even-know-how-many-classes-and-specs-anymore. Is it perfect? No. But there's enough of diversity to actually find something you enjoy.

We have had beam meta for how long now?

When was the last time a class got truly reworked? Some of the most useless skills Sorc had back on launch are still around. Short of some morph changes, all the skills are still here. None of them were ever completely replaced. Does ZOS consider ESO to be perfectly designed all those years ago? Yeah, sure...

It's not just change that the players are afraid of but the extent and how random it is at times.

Most players aren't going to be too upset if their meta builds one year later are no longer meta but within 5% of the new meta. That is what we call tweaking.

But losing 30% of your dps after a major patch is not tweaking, it's death. After Patch 35 my stamwarden was no longer viable for prog runs and our nightblade in the prog simply gave up because he couldn't play his favourite class any more.

Werewolf tanking which was a niche build got destroyed not because it was overpowered but because the devs didn't approve of the playstyle. Players enjoyed it and it was not ruining the game in any way and yet the devs burned it to the ground!

And how many necro mains gave up after Blastbones became a buff skill?

Calling some of the tone deaf and catastrophic changes that the devs have done to ESO 'tweaks' is like calling a Category 5 Hurricane 'mild relandscaping'.

BTW: I do play other MMOs and I don't fear the changes they make there because I trust those devs to use a scalpel and not a wrecking ball.

I wish I could steal your words and use them with my post. This is it exactly, plus many of these changes led to a large portion of people I play with leaving and entire guilds disbanding due to player loss. Just confuses me how a company can make huge changes over and over again and they have to see player decline and keep making more huge changes.