[REQUEST] Permanent Vengeance Test Campaign

YandereGirlfriend

Tigor wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

I do not have a credulous belief in what players say. If someone has spent almost 2 years in Cyrodiil to become a good player then that is not making sense. The underlying mechanisms that not everyone has access to, can be interpreted as not having the right setup for every situation and become a combatable player. But as some players can do whatever they want in every circumstance, without almost any effect from the surroundings makes me believe that something is missing from the standard game. And that makes sense.

What doesn't make sense about someone spending time in a game to get better at it? That’s called practice and it’s how you get good. You can’t just walk into Cyrodiil on day one and start nuking zergs. You practice and test and iterate until you find what works.

If the underlying mechanisms are “the right gear”, literally everyone has access to those things. You can make a meta setup without paying a single dime for this game. The players who “can do whatever they want in every circumstance” know how to react to every circumstance accordingly.

There are fundamental principles to PvP that a lot of people don't understand, and instead of trying to understand them, they just throw around accusations of exploits, unfair advantages, and (in the worst cases) hacks.

I and many others have a strong belief that Cyrodiil is full of cheaters.

This feels like that quip that, "Sufficiently advanced technology can often appear as magic" or however it goes.

There probably are a tiny number of players who actually cheat (e.g. the people who used to fly around in Cyro or levitate up through floors back in the day) but the VAST majority of the time accusations of cheating are simply people coping with the reality that other players are just absurdly good at the game (and/or have absurdly good builds).

Tigor

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

I do not have a credulous belief in what players say. If someone has spent almost 2 years in Cyrodiil to become a good player then that is not making sense. The underlying mechanisms that not everyone has access to, can be interpreted as not having the right setup for every situation and become a combatable player. But as some players can do whatever they want in every circumstance, without almost any effect from the surroundings makes me believe that something is missing from the standard game. And that makes sense.

What doesn't make sense about someone spending time in a game to get better at it? That’s called practice and it’s how you get good. You can’t just walk into Cyrodiil on day one and start nuking zergs. You practice and test and iterate until you find what works.

If the underlying mechanisms are “the right gear”, literally everyone has access to those things. You can make a meta setup without paying a single dime for this game. The players who “can do whatever they want in every circumstance” know how to react to every circumstance accordingly.

There are fundamental principles to PvP that a lot of people don't understand, and instead of trying to understand them, they just throw around accusations of exploits, unfair advantages, and (in the worst cases) hacks.

I and many others have a strong belief that Cyrodiil is full of cheaters.

This feels like that quip that, "Sufficiently advanced technology can often appear as magic" or however it goes.

There probably are a tiny number of players who actually cheat (e.g. the people who used to fly around in Cyro or levitate up through floors back in the day) but the VAST majority of the time accusations of cheating are simply people coping with the reality that other players are just absurdly good at the game (and/or have absurdly good builds).

PvP is just difficult in this game

aetherix8

Tigor wrote: »

I and many others have a strong belief that Cyrodiil is full of cheaters.

And that’s what stopping you and those “many others” from becoming a competitive PvPer. If you only dismiss skill as cheating then you cannot learn from your opponent, and cannot improve your game because you don’t pay attention to what your opponent is doing.

Yes, it takes long to learn to PvP in Cyrodiil. You have to understand your class, your build, your opponents’ class and how to counter it, etc. It takes a considerable effort to improve but it’s possible, and very satisfying when you start to see the results.

aetherix8

reazea wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

RaidingTraiding wrote: »

please no more vengeance. the same people who want vengeance are the same ones who were begging for a no proc campaign in no cp. that campaigns been dead for years since. where are all those players now? certainly not in that campaign.

Sure, let’s just stop any attempts at improving PvP, be it performance or balance, let’s just leave it as is and “enjoy” the broken mess that just keeps bleeding out players.

PvP players won't play vengeance. That's the flaw in your belief.

ZOS is perfectly capable of fixing their system of PvP if they just put in the time and money to do it.

Vengeance as is, but what about a potential future version that is much closer to the current Cyro?

I have the impression that ZOS is already putting time and money into fixing Cyro - Vengeance tests cost time and money to develop.

Tigor

aetherix8 wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

I and many others have a strong belief that Cyrodiil is full of cheaters.

And that’s what stopping you and those “many others” from becoming a competitive PvPer. If you only dismiss skill as cheating then you cannot learn from your opponent, and cannot improve your game because you don’t pay attention to what your opponent is doing.

Yes, it takes long to learn to PvP in Cyrodiil. You have to understand your class, your build, your opponents’ class and how to counter it, etc. It takes a considerable effort to improve but it’s possible, and very satisfying when you start to see the results.

I know it takes time to become a competitive PvP player and that is just the whole issue. And yes understanding things is very satisfying, but still some opponents? Being competitive is also playing dirty tricks on their terms and that is just not our mindset. Working on my latest character is fun. And yes it is far from ready, and maybe I will change the name of it when the game is ready for it. You need to understand calling players cheaters in an unfair relation or competition is more a behavioural then technical matter. So yes, improving characters is fine. But unsportsmanlike behaviour is not welcome. The current state of the game made this more of a topic. Then in that respect Vengeance is also good to proceed with.

Rogue_Coyote

Pay attention to the buffs/debuffs you get on your toon while in pvp. If you ever get a skill that has a countdown of 47000 days that is a tell tale sign of exploiting used against you, namely desync. This happens when your opponent uses specific skills in a specific order known to have the effect of desync. It is 100% against ToS and bannable.
I have reported and successfully had players banned submitting evidence of this action. The trick is pin pointing when the desync occurred.
If you google "eso how are players desyncing in pvp" ai will run down exactly the root cause, and list known skill combinations that do this.

Durham

I hope the small server idea pans out I would rather have a smaller Cyrodill with a max of 40-50 per faction. This would give you the larger battles you want while also limitng the effect on server performance. Fix the Ball group problem and you got yourself some PVP>

aetherix8

Durham wrote: »

I hope the small server idea pans out I would rather have a smaller Cyrodill with a max of 40-50 per faction. This would give you the larger battles you want while also limitng the effect on server performance. Fix the Ball group problem and you got yourself some PVP>

I’m curious about this new mode with a smaller map, but I’m really looking forward to having a functional campaign on a map as it is today. Hopefully we’ll be able to fill those increased population caps, because Cyrodiil is designed for large populations, and it’s thrilling to watch enemy forces appear on the horizon in such numbers that they are spread across the entire field of view (as opposed to a compact trickle of a two dozen max), and they just keep coming… I was able to participate in a couple of such encounters during the last test - PC EU had a decent participation - and it was an unprecedented experience. I would like to repeat that.

Also, I think that a successful Vengeance campaign can help rehabilitate the reputation of ballgroups. I never played in a ballgroup and I got my fair share of getting farmed by them, but in a context of an enemy megazerg (100+) being disrupted by a much smaller but better organized group, it would be a very different story. A really efficient ballgroup can adapt to Vengeance and still wreak havoc, while pseudo ballgroups will naturally struggle.

YandereGirlfriend

aetherix8 wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

I hope the small server idea pans out I would rather have a smaller Cyrodill with a max of 40-50 per faction. This would give you the larger battles you want while also limitng the effect on server performance. Fix the Ball group problem and you got yourself some PVP>

I’m curious about this new mode with a smaller map, but I’m really looking forward to having a functional campaign on a map as it is today. Hopefully we’ll be able to fill those increased population caps, because Cyrodiil is designed for large populations, and it’s thrilling to watch enemy forces appear on the horizon in such numbers that they are spread across the entire field of view (as opposed to a compact trickle of a two dozen max), and they just keep coming… I was able to participate in a couple of such encounters during the last test - PC EU had a decent participation - and it was an unprecedented experience. I would like to repeat that.

Also, I think that a successful Vengeance campaign can help rehabilitate the reputation of ballgroups. I never played in a ballgroup and I got my fair share of getting farmed by them, but in a context of an enemy megazerg (100+) being disrupted by a much smaller but better organized group, it would be a very different story. A really efficient ballgroup can adapt to Vengeance and still wreak havoc, while pseudo ballgroups will naturally struggle.

Unless they lift the asinine target cap on damage abilities, which is probably the single largest finger on the scale in favor of zergs in all of Vengeance, then the entire concept of coordinated damage does not exist.

aetherix8

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

I hope the small server idea pans out I would rather have a smaller Cyrodill with a max of 40-50 per faction. This would give you the larger battles you want while also limitng the effect on server performance. Fix the Ball group problem and you got yourself some PVP>

I’m curious about this new mode with a smaller map, but I’m really looking forward to having a functional campaign on a map as it is today. Hopefully we’ll be able to fill those increased population caps, because Cyrodiil is designed for large populations, and it’s thrilling to watch enemy forces appear on the horizon in such numbers that they are spread across the entire field of view (as opposed to a compact trickle of a two dozen max), and they just keep coming… I was able to participate in a couple of such encounters during the last test - PC EU had a decent participation - and it was an unprecedented experience. I would like to repeat that.

Also, I think that a successful Vengeance campaign can help rehabilitate the reputation of ballgroups. I never played in a ballgroup and I got my fair share of getting farmed by them, but in a context of an enemy megazerg (100+) being disrupted by a much smaller but better organized group, it would be a very different story. A really efficient ballgroup can adapt to Vengeance and still wreak havoc, while pseudo ballgroups will naturally struggle.

Unless they lift the asinine target cap on damage abilities, which is probably the single largest finger on the scale in favor of zergs in all of Vengeance, then the entire concept of coordinated damage does not exist.

Indeed, but luckily there are some more tests to come before Vengeance becomes permanent, and next year tests are supposed to focus on damage vs healing, and balance in general. There’s still time for us players to suggest necessary changes and adjustments, nothing is set in stone yet.

RaidingTraiding

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Pay attention to the buffs/debuffs you get on your toon while in pvp. If you ever get a skill that has a countdown of 47000 days that is a tell tale sign of exploiting used against you, namely desync. This happens when your opponent uses specific skills in a specific order known to have the effect of desync. It is 100% against ToS and bannable.
I have reported and successfully had players banned submitting evidence of this action. The trick is pin pointing when the desync occurred.
If you google "eso how are players desyncing in pvp" ai will run down exactly the root cause, and list known skill combinations that do this.

There must be a lot of cheaters / exploiters then, I always get this. And they only seem to appear when it's really laggy. Lag totally has nothing to do with it, and every desync is a result of them and not game performance, so maybe Vengeance is really a ploy to stop the cheaters.