Problems with Aggro/Threat/Hate

korwinthale

Not sure if this has been posted but Threat in this game seems non existent. anyone else noticed this? I've been tanking in MMOs for like what 15 years now.. so I have a pretty good understanding of how it should work. My issue is when I am tanking for a group now it seems no matter how much damage I do or how many times I hit the enemy They just run about randomly in a huge Free for all *** doing terrible things to the healer....
This is not an effective dungeon system. Also when the healer runs to me for safety and I hit the mob with my "taunt" ability it turns hits me once then charges off merrily at another random target... I feel that this leads to situations like I had last night where I was tanking spindleclutch for some lower level guildies .. I was level 22 they were all 12ish So I know for a fact I was generating the most damage... and yet I could hold aggro on nothing save maybe 3 or 4 mobs per pull then I spent the rest of my time madly chasing enemies... This is also with the players in my group playing intelligently and waiting to attack or heal what have you. This doesn't feel fun to me. I don't like mad free for all combat in dungeons... How do you expect clothy characters to survive getting one shotted by mobs because there is no reliable way to hold threat... am I missing something? Is there some magic threat stance I dont know about ? Ideas guys? I would like to hear from tanks in particular.

SirAndy

Dunno, but a mob AI that ignores the tank and goes for the healer instead sounds like a pretty smart implementation.

I mean, when you attack a larger mob, you take out their healers first too, don't you?
;-)

Melian

I'm going to start tanking soon myself and I'd like to know, too. As a dps it's kind of fun to have to kite and cc more, but I can see it being frustrating as a tank to have mobs running everywhere.

korwinthale

@Melian man it is a nightmare because your other party members die in seconds to the strength of the mobs .. and your left standing there like... well I'm doing everything I can.

Erock25

Tanking is different in ESO. There are so many group pulls, that it is only the tanks job to grab the one or two hard hitters while dps fend for themselves burning down the rest.

That being said, are you using enough aoe skills? My sorc tank gets aggro on too many mobs sometimes when I'm dropping my aoe spells down.

Also from my experience the 15 second taunts are iron clad. I can use the ability and run around kiting and the taunted mob always chases.

dannomite82

It exists, but it might be harder to quantify without more study or developer assistance.

It sounds like your problem is more multi-mob tanking. If that's the case, then you'll want to have an aoe ability on your bar. The problem is likely that the healer's threat from healing is higher than your damage threat.

Also keep in mind that the game gives everyone the ability to avoid/mitigate damage. This includes crowd controlling secondary targets (slowing/stunning, etc.) Realistically, the more damage you take, the more the healer heals, the more threat they generate. By CCing, you're reducing your healer's load as well as their threat.

Kiash

You aren't meant to tank every single mob every pull as a tank in this game. You are meant to tank bosses and the harder hitting ones in groups.

Don't run yourself ragged trying to pick up every little add, let the DPS and Healers learn to deal with the pulls and use their own defensive skills. Everyone can block and dodge.

Dungeons in this game require team work and people being on their toes. It's a good thing. Also, the Sword and Shield first ability is a built in taunt that works very well. It has always grabbed aggro for me.

elder42

It's because tanking and threat doesn't work the way it does in most all other MMOs these days. I actually think the "Holy Trinity" factor in this game is pretty bad, from what I've been able to see so far. As a tank, I'm basically a guy that takes a lot less damage, but deals a lot less as a result, and due to the "threat" mechanics (or lack thereof, to be honest) I'm not even preventing a lot of damage, since I'm only effectively holding one or two mobs at a time. I can't even hold boss aggro consistently, and range DPS doesn't even need me because of how easy it is for them to kite stuff in this game.

As a tank, so far, I don't feel like I'm even necessary in this game, from a single-player or group aspect. My survivability isn't that great in solo content because despite higher mitigation I don't do much damage, and I *have* to stay in melee to kill, and I feel severely underwhelming in groups (when I've been able to get group dungeons to work). Better to roll 2 range dps, 1 melee dps and a healer, from what I can tell.

I think they focused more on the faction PvP than they did on PvE group design. You really can't split your focus in MMOs, and this is showing why. PvE might as well be an offline game.

korwinthale

@‌elder42 exactly
And yes im using aoe I use aedric spear first ability as a frotnal cone and the dawns wrath secondary ability as an aoe, I also do my initial pull with reflective ligth switch weapons to aedric spear bar do my aoe blast twice then pummel them with frontal cone aoe, And the taunt mechanic is broken for me I litterrally taunt something and watch it turn around immediately.

maniacal1

Erock25 wrote: »

Tanking is different in ESO. There are so many group pulls, that it is only the tanks job to grab the one or two hard hitters while dps fend for themselves burning down the rest.

That being said, are you using enough aoe skills? My sorc tank gets aggro on too many mobs sometimes when I'm dropping my aoe spells down.

Also from my experience the 15 second taunts are iron clad. I can use the ability and run around kiting and the taunted mob always chases.

This. They don't exactly explain it well, if at all, but for a system set up like the 'Holy Trinity' it's nothing like. This made grouping, in beta, a HUGE pain for me, though I think I get it now. As the quoted says, the tank will pull the biggest guy and hold him while the DPS whittle down the others, this is especially important in boss fights, and the healer sits back and focuses the tank with maybe a few heals to the DPS if they get into a tight spot. In most games you funnel 1 mob, but in ESO everyone is pretty capable in 1 v 1 fights, plus there's no real 'hate' mechanic other than 1 or 2 taunts so the tank relies on his durability and the DPS NOT pulling mobs off him, so it becomes a group endeavor against another group and not just doing it assembly-line style.

In other words, completely different than what anyone who has played any other MMO is used to.

elder42

It's not different, this is how Holy Trinity tanking started off in the 90s before "Holy Trinity" was actual PvE design. The guy in the best armor grabbed the biggest dude while the rest of the group worked on everyone else, but you didn't have threat meters or CDs to roll through or anything like that. Everyone was pretty much DPS, just the highest geared melee was the one that lead the group, saw a group of monsters, grabbed the toughest one, and that was it.

It's a really boring way to play a tank. I like pulling a group and having it punch me in the face, controlling where the mobs are positioned and which way they are facing to help group survivability and max their DPS. This is why the "Holy Trinity" PvE aspect evolved into what WoW provided. WoW has done a lot of things wrong, but that was something they nailed, which is why everyone expects PvE to play that way now. It's just much, much better.

Said it in my first topic here, but this is the same mistake FFXIV 1.0 made. It tried doing things the "old" way as if it were all better and WoW ruined everything, but it's really that WoW improved on the formula, now WoW has ruined itself, we just need MMOs that take the core of what made WoW a great MMO in its prime and improving on it. This is just reducing the genre back to its base parts as a means to be different, but it's horrendously boring, and shows why MMOs were a basement hobby for so long. They just weren't interesting enough.

Kiash

elder42 wrote: »

It's not different, this is how Holy Trinity started off in the 90s before group roles were really defined. The guy in the best armor grabbed the biggest dude while the rest of the group worked on everyone else, but you didn't have threat meters or CDs to roll through or anything like that. You just saw a group of monsters, grabbed one, and that's it.

It's a really boring way to play a tank. I like pulling a group and having it punch me in the face, controlling where the mobs are positioned and which way they are facing to help group survivability and max their DPS. This is why the "Holy Trinity" PvE aspect evolved into what WoW provided. WoW has done a lot of things wrong, but that was something they nailed, which is why everyone expects PvE to play that way now. It's just much, much better.

You cannot be serious...WoW trinity has no strategy at all. Tank grabs everything and AFK's, DPS slams buttons for maximom numbarz, healer occasionally presses a button. There is nothing I miss about WoW's version of "trinity".

Give this game a chance, give strategy a chance, give thought process involved with tanking a chance. If you still don't like it in a few months from now at 50, then ESO isn't for you and you should find a game that is!

elder42

Kiash wrote: »

You cannot be serious...WoW trinity has no strategy at all. Tank grabs everything and AFK's, DPS slams buttons for maximom numbarz, healer occasionally presses a button. There is nothing I miss about WoW's version of "trinity".

No, WoW in its current form has no strategy. When it was new, Warriors were stance dancing, DPS had to watch aggro because tanks didn't have AoE skills to spam, it was highly tab-targetting single-target threat (yes we could thunderclap and shockwave but both those skills generated garbage threat back then), even Healers could pull threat well after a pull began if they were having to drop big heals too often, and they'd have to run to the tank so he could get aggro back asap. It made every role feel necessary and made people feel needed.

This game is that there are certain skills that generate a monsters attention to the user for x amount of seconds, and even then it doesn't seem guaranteed. I've used skills on mobs that say "will cause them to attack you for x amount of seconds", they focus me for one or two, and then go back to beating on the DPS that's actually hurting them.

I can't tell if PvE is bad due to ineptitude, intentionally archaic design, or perhaps a mixture of both. But this is *not* a new big badass MMO, this a reminder of how far we've come since these design decisions were norm, and why it's so much better to leave those designs in the past. I can't believe these game developers aren't learning from the mistakes of other ventures like KotOR or FFXIV 1.0. It's right there to look at why those games failed, yet someone makes a new MMO the exact same way and goes "Yeah, but it won't happen to us!!!"

I want to like this game so badly because I love Elder Scrolls and I love MMOs, but I can't deny my gut. This is garbage. I am really hoping I can get a refund, but my gut is telling me that since it's past launch, it's too late for that.

thedemiseraphb14_ESO

I like that it is NOT easy mode. Tank can't just play god and stand there holding everything. The other players still have to play.

elder42

thedemiseraphb14_ESO wrote: »

I like that it is NOT easy mode. Tank can't just play god and stand there holding everything. The other players still have to play.

Well-designed "Holy Trinity" mechanics don't make "easy mode" either, it makes people talk and firmly defines roles, while making everyone feel necessary and valuable to the group.

It also makes the game "fun". I don't care how "hard" it is (which this game really isn't, not due to challenging mechanics at least), if it's boring, it isn't worthwhile when I'm paying money for entertainment.

Which is something a *lot* of people who defend this game seem to be forgetting. People don't pay for games to be bored and work for reward. People work for money, work can be boring, work can be stressful, work is pain for reward. People take that reward to pay for games in the hopes of an immediate reward of escaping life for a few moments and unwinding. This game isn't delivering. We can argue hardcore vs casual vs whatever we want, it doesn't matter, this game just isn't going to sustain itself the way it is right now, and it's because the people that made the game didn't do their work well enough.

Kiash

elder42 wrote: »

thedemiseraphb14_ESO wrote: »

I like that it is NOT easy mode. Tank can't just play god and stand there holding everything. The other players still have to play.

Well-designed "Holy Trinity" mechanics don't make "easy mode" either, it makes people talk and firmly defines roles, while making everyone feel necessary and valuable to the group.

It also makes the game "fun". I don't care how "hard" it is (which this game really isn't, not due to challenging mechanics at least), if it's boring, it isn't worthwhile when I'm paying money for entertainment.

Which is something a *lot* of people who defend this game seem to be forgetting. People don't pay for games to be bored and work for reward. People work for money, work can be boring, work can be stressful, work is pain for reward. People take that reward to pay for games in the hopes of an immediate reward of escaping life for a few moments and unwinding. This game isn't delivering. We can argue hardcore vs casual vs whatever we want, it doesn't matter, this game just isn't going to sustain itself the way it is right now, and it's because the people that made the game didn't do their work well enough.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then. The game will be better off without the changes you want for a majority of the players looking for something different when there are dozens of games out there that do exactly what you want.

elder42

Kiash wrote: »

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

We can, but it isn't like the problems are just going to "blow over" and the game will simply remain the way it is for the people who *do* like it the way it is. There are serious problems here that need to be addressed. You'll see soon. They are going to start doing things to this game to either appeal more to the people that dislike how it is right now and really upset the people that love the way it is right now, *or* start implementing ways to squeeze even more money out of the people who continue to play it (through more paid services for in-game bonuses, ie. increase the bag space cap, things like that) to try and make up for their poor design decisions causing monetary loss.

It doesn't just go away. This game was a huge investment that went out into the world 15 years later than when it would've been a big hit, they're going to feel the effects of the mistake and be scrambling to recoup. And honestly, I think that it'll go the latter route, ATMing the people who can't let go for all they're worth, because the loyal customers are the ones that usually pay the most when bad things like this happens.

Kiash

elder42 wrote: »

Kiash wrote: »

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

We can, but it isn't like the problems are just going to "blow over" and the game will simply remain the way it is for the people who *do* like it the way it is. There are serious problems here that need to be addressed. You'll see soon. They are going to start doing things to this game to either appeal more to the people that dislike how it is right now and really upset the people that love the way it is right now, *or* start implementing ways to squeeze even more money out of the people who continue to play it (through more paid services for in-game bonuses, ie. increase the bag space cap, things like that) to try and make up for their poor design decisions causing monetary loss.

It doesn't just go away. This game was a huge investment that went out into the world 15 years later than when it would've been a big hit, they're going to feel the effects of the mistake and be scrambling to recoup. And honestly, I think that it'll go the latter route, ATMing the people who can't let go for all they're worth, because the loyal customers are the ones that usually pay the most when bad things like this happens.

My point was, what is a problem for you doesn't seem to be a problem for many others. That's why I suggested giving it a chance or finding a game more on rails. I can only speak for my friends and my guild of 200 some odd people when I say we are all enjoying it.

Just because you think there is a problem doesn't mean there actually is a problem.

elder42

A lot of people who are "loving" this game right now are still in the honeymoon/hype/"omgIcantbelieveit'sfinallyout" phase. We've all been there with things in life. This game doesn't do much to sustain that, though. It's going to pop for a lot of people real quick.

Just keep this topic in your bookmark and check back in a month, and you'll understand 100% what I've been saying.

thedemiseraphb14_ESO

Elder, you seem to have a lot of mystical future insight to the world of TESO and the leaders.... based on what you say. But the reality is, systems can and do change. Maybe they will go the way you want, or maybe they will better define the fights to keep everyone involved and not have the tank be able to pull everything. Just because it is different doesn't mean it can't work. And just because it's not perfect right now doesn't mean it won't improve. But that does not mean every new mmo has to go back to the one trinity concept. Why would a game that thrives on letting you make hybrid builds, force you to have to be a trinity? Honestly, a group of 4 people that are all hybrids, would probably be ideal. Rather than people in the old mindset of "my tanks must be xyz"

elder42

It isn't mystical future insight, this is knowing the history of something and seeing it repeating itself. I don't have an orb I look into.

GW2 tried the "everyone can do everything" for PvE and it's why people didn't like the group PvE. Most of it was a straight-up zergfest, which to some is "harder" because you die more, but it wasn't very challenging. That's kind of how I feel about this game - I die more than most modern MMOs, but it doesn't feel like I'm doing anything wrong, it's like I'm supposed to die. Not literally scripted, but almost as if death is something they wanted to happen regularly, not due to player failure or anything, just because.

If they *want* this game to be as successful as something like GW2 instead of aiming for WoW numbers, then fine, they're basically being non-competitive because they have nothing better to offer, and that's about what they seem to be going for with this formula, but with a monthly subscription service? Again, big problems. Nothing mystical. There are some hard facts here for why this game is going to be hurting soon, but some people just don't want to see them because they like the game the way it is and don't want to admit that all the hours they're currently putting into their character might end up being a big waste because the game is on its way to getting manhandled.

Which is understandable, but an "agree to disagree" or "this guy is just spouting things off" or "I don't want to see it so I will just ignore it and enjoy myself anyway" isn't going to stop reality from happening. It's a fantasy game, but its data exists in a very real world, and that's what's going to mess it all up pretty soon. It could've lasted for people longer than it will, but the people that made this didn't do enough to keep the fantasy insulated as long as they could've.

cromica81_ESO

From what I have seen the capable tanks are getting trash talk or even kicked from groups because people think they are bad when in fact its just the way the mechanics work. It wouldn't have been so bad if they would have said we are doing something different with group content then people would have known but now its just well the tank let us get attacked so he is bad find a new one. (speaking from experience here)

korwinthale

Kiash wrote: »

elder42 wrote: »

It's not different, this is how Holy Trinity started off in the 90s before group roles were really defined. The guy in the best armor grabbed the biggest dude while the rest of the group worked on everyone else, but you didn't have threat meters or CDs to roll through or anything like that. You just saw a group of monsters, grabbed one, and that's it.

It's a really boring way to play a tank. I like pulling a group and having it punch me in the face, controlling where the mobs are positioned and which way they are facing to help group survivability and max their DPS. This is why the "Holy Trinity" PvE aspect evolved into what WoW provided. WoW has done a lot of things wrong, but that was something they nailed, which is why everyone expects PvE to play that way now. It's just much, much better.

You cannot be serious...WoW trinity has no strategy at all. Tank grabs everything and AFK's, DPS slams buttons for maximom numbarz, healer occasionally presses a button. There is nothing I miss about WoW's version of "trinity".

Give this game a chance, give strategy a chance, give thought process involved with tanking a chance. If you still don't like it in a few months from now at 50, then ESO isn't for you and you should find a game that is!

Ok if you really believe this there is absolutely no way you EVER played vanilla wow
Yes now it's like that and has been since Frozen throne or whatever that expac was called but no originally wow nailed it perfectly and it was HARD all the whiny newbs ruined it because blizzard caved and made the whole 4 button mash *** monkey game.

That was actually the downfall of blizzard and wow is when they messed with that formulae.. It's why I quit playing, its why EVERYONE i know quit playing... it's why they cant keep subs anymore.... This game is going to tank hard because they implemented so many things so halfassed and badly.. you can fanboy and cry and say I'm wrong all you want but the truth is that this game is not going to be viable for them as soon as the new wears off.. It feels like a Gw2/Lotro Hybrid with bad inventory management and dumbed down homogenized classes in order to appeal to the idiots playing wow right now whom will get just as bored with this. ..

I LOVE TES games it's by far one of my favorite game worlds ever.. But Zenimax DID NOT do TES Justice with this game because they tried to appeal to everyone when they shouldve done what really works . Great PVE holds peoples attention for a long long long time New PVE content makes people excited... pvp while really fun just wont hold the kind of people a MMORPG is originally designed for... Hence the term MMO R P G ROLE PLAYING GAME .. Not MMO PLAYER VS PLAYER SLUGFEST if you want that then go play dota or any of the thousands of games out there Guildwars is free and does pvp ... They need to get back to making the game RPG , Holy trinity, PvE focus , he elder scrolls universe is sooo perfect for a good Pve game .. PvP should be an after thought that is just done really well... Blizzard tried all this crap to save their failing game and they keep pushing it into a hole .... Why emulate something that is essentially failing when before they had a much more steady income and rock solid customer base?

MrDrez

So, elder42 (and whomever else believes tanking is broken), let me ask you this: if you are correct and the tanking mechanics as they are now don't work, what is the best way to run a dungeon? I think you (or someone else) mentioned 2 ranged DPS, 1 melee DPS, and a healer. Does that sound right?

I don't think this game is going anywhere anytime soon. If the mechanics are broke, they will be fixed. Elder scrolls as a franchise is almost too big to fail. Like DCUO or KOTOR; those games will never just curl up and die, there are too many fans. So, until those mechanics get fixed (or if they're "working as intended", as some others suggest), what's the best way to run dungeons right now, in a world where tanks can't consistently generate and hold aggro?

korwinthale

@MrDrez a tank should be able to at least keep the fight from becoming the huge clusterf^ck that it is now.

Here's the thing "play like you want to play" I want to play a tank.. I've played a tank for a long long time I love tanking .

So I make my toon very very tanky and instead of being a tank im the guy running in circles trying to save people doing less damage and being like cmon guys hit me plz Im made to take hits its what i do...

MrDrez

korwinthale wrote: »

@MrDrez a tank should be able to at least keep the fight from becoming the huge clusterf^ck that it is now.

I agree. But until that gets fixed, what do we do? Not run dungeons? Or is there another way?

korwinthale

@‌MrDrez
Well I feel basically useless in the dungeons all I can do is basically try my best to hold the big guys and pray my healer doesnt die which is what ussually happens because i am unable to protect him which as a tank is your number one job, protect the healer.. You are the wall between the badguys and the squishies!
So I hold the big guys I chase the guys hitting my healer and My taunts dont even work most of the time.
They need a more definate aggro table I think that a tank should really have to WORK to hold that threat I mean tank like a boss to hold it.. not have it be super simple but I do tink that it should be at least possible to do so. Force the dps to play smart and not button spam to maximise numbers make the healer have to utilise his heals smart and effectively in order to not draw as much threat.. I dunno man I just know right now I feel like my role is pointless.

and people keep saying that the TES fans will keep this game alive.. I really cant imagine a bigger TES fan than me and I'm so crestfallen that while I was playing today I actually just wanted to turn off the game and go play skyrim or Oblivion and try to feel better

MrDrez

Alright, so it sounds like the first part of an ESO dungeon party is a healer who can protect himself, because he can't count on the tank to do it for him. Check.

It also sounds like you need a tank who can put down some damage, or at least root/CC mobs because he can't count on threat generation alone to control mobs. Check.

What else do we need? I'm not asking rhetorically; I want to know seriously, what you guys think you need to do to be successful in dungeons in ESO right now, as the game currently is. No judgements, no complaining about what the game should be, I just want to work with what we've got.

elder42

MrDrez wrote: »

Alright, so it sounds like the first part of an ESO dungeon party is a healer who can protect himself, because he can't count on the tank to do it for him. Check.

It also sounds like you need a tank who can put down some damage, or at least root/CC mobs because he can't count on threat generation alone to control mobs. Check.

What else do we need? I'm not asking rhetorically; I want to know seriously, what you guys think you need to do to be successful in dungeons in ESO right now, as the game currently is. No judgements, no complaining about what the game should be, I just want to work with what we've got.

Take "tank" out of the equation. Just make sure you have a melee DPS in Heavy Armor and that's your replacement.

Also don't count on CC. This isn't WoW in that regard, either. From what I've seen it's very brief lockdown effects to boost DPS on the target, instead of long-term disabling moves to make pulls less threatening.

Once more people who rolled "tank" to play "tank" figure out how bad "tank" is in this game, I don't think you'll be finding many people fill that role anyway, since coming along dressed to take damage and having it go everywhere else makes you feel useless. Even if that's how they intentionally designed it (though I personally think it's just neglect, it looks to me like they focused more on PvP), "working with it" isn't fun.

If I had known this at the start I probably would've just gone for a 2-handed melee dps with some HP boost skills and had more fun with the game, but as it is it took 15 hours of playtime to get to see how broken the trinity is and re-rolling is pointless, and it looks like it costs a crapload to respec which means either way it's going to cost me a *lot* of time to undo something and make the game playable because this aspect got zero attention.

BETAOPTICS

This games mechanics should not be treated as a traditional MMO. Healer draws the most aggro out of mobs and tank the second most. Also traditional tanking with durability and CC will not be viable in this game. Tanks have to kite around enemies and avoid their attacks, just like other classes though the consequences are not as hefty as they are to class cannons.

What I find odd and hard as a tank though, is the fact that you can not keep consistent CC on and healers aggro the most. So your traditional tank job is pretty much negated, thus most who don't know a lot about ESO tanks blame the tanks for the games mechanical changes over traditional MMO's.

elder42

And to the guy who said something about getting kicked for being a "bad tank" for losing aggro because people expect tanks to be threat magnets now, when this game doesn't work that way. That's happened to me as well. The first group dungeon I did the group fell apart and everyone crapped on me, because one boss spawned an add that went to the healer, I could not for the life of me get it to attack me, the healer died, made some noise, DPS sided with them because I'm the bad tank that couldn't outdo healer threat (which I was thinking as well) and there goes that run.

It's also worth mentioning that the boss in this scenario didn't stay aggro'd to me either, despite spamming my "taunt" ability whenever possible. Though it's also possible that since anyone can do anything, it's highly possible that one of the melee dps was spamming their attack that had a "taunt" tied into it as well (since my "taunt" ability is actually taken from the DPS skill tree), which even further proves why the "everyone can do everything" concept is flawed. I have to worry about people who aren't building themselves exclusively for tanking accidentally tanking the run, because not only did I need to take an DPS skill to make myself a more effective tank, there are skills in *my* tree that DPS should take that makes them better at DPS, but will also give them more tanky ability. So essentially, the majority of PvE groups are going to be massive cluster****s, because most people are just going to grab whatever looks good for solo and keep it that way when in dungeons. Which is why roles are better when they're defined and exclusive, with no cross-over at all.

All these poor PvE group mechanics are going to have a seriously negative effect on community attitudes.