PVP in 2025 - Warden charms and rallying cry

MISTFORMBZZZ

The meta is so boring, everyone is playing rallying cry because crit dmg is so high and everyone is on a warden just to play charm.
Charm glitches people into walls.

When is zos going to do something ? Fix charm ? Balance skill line so the meta shifts ?

Or is this even more stale vengeance the answere for everything?

Thumbless_Bot

Meta is always fun for about 30 minutes... maybe an hour after it is figured out on any patch, then boring for the next three months.

You can't control other people but you can choose to not run it. Not out of some sense of superiority like running non-meta makes you better than those that run meta, because it doesn't. Run off-meta because it's fun.

tomofhyrule

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Run off-meta because it's fun.

At least until someone who does run meta beats you again and again and you have no hope of matching them because your off-meta build can't hope to measure up despite your skill.

That's the problem. The balance is a disaster right now. The meta is so far ahead of anything else, that the only way that people have a hope of remaining competitive in high-level PvE or PvP is to play it.

"lol just play off-meta!" isn't a reasonable solution for playing with others. If the game were properly balanced, then we wouldn't have the "one meta to rule them all" effect, and then people could play a build they find fun and be competitive with.

MincMincMinc

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Meta is always fun for about 30 minutes... maybe an hour after it is figured out on any patch, then boring for the next three months.

You can't control other people but you can choose to not run it. Not out of some sense of superiority like running non-meta makes you better than those that run meta, because it doesn't. Run off-meta because it's fun.

makes sense for charm, its not necessary, but a massive pain for everyone else. Rallying cry though is so necessary to the point where if you don't run it, you basically sign up for a roll dodge or permablock to survive.

Pen and armor are fairly balanced because numerically they go 1:1 while also having a very wide variety of choices and systems to pick and counterpick. Crit damage and crit resist just do not share this dynamic. There are a multitude of crit damage options stackable. However there are only a a handful of crit resist sources that just don't come close even after completely gimping a build.

---

Before people had 3050(46%) crit resist fighting 50% to maybe 85% crit damage builds

now adays we see 100% on basic builds to 180% on crit damage builds so you need anywhere from 92% to 165% crit resist or 6k to 10k+ crit resist to be equivalent to the previous more balanced version of crit before they messed with impen. Remember they tried to get people to stop depending on impen so PvE builds could try to PvP......but in reality they just ruined the balance for everyone and people still have to run all impen.

spartaxoxo

Sounds like they should add a critical resistance buff to battle spirit or up it to more modern standards if already exists.

MincMincMinc

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Sounds like they should add a critical resistance buff to battle spirit or up it to more modern standards if already exists.

Depends if zos allows all these crit damage sources to be unique. The crit damage problem with the game is that too many unique sources are available across too many systems. It may be possible that some sources like orders wrath or class passives get changed to maj/min buffs so they dont stack. Or values have to be reduced across the board to reduce the large gap between crit damage and non crit damage builds.

We see this similar power creep dynamic with movement speed, where before you had only a few sources balanced around the world size, character size, and skill ranges (systems that cant easily compensate). Now they added a handful of more ways to get it that all stack, but they never reduced the overall values to maintain the same balance.

For a better perspective lets think pen vs resists. Imagine if the average pvp build was sitting at the 180% crit damage equivalent being over cap. We are talking a scenario where builds would just be sitting at like 50k pen. Where do you get 50k resists from to counteract that? At a certain point there is no reason to stack pen and you are better off just dodging or blocking constantly.

Thumbless_Bot

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Run off-meta because it's fun.

At least until someone who does run meta beats you again and again and you have no hope of matching them because your off-meta build can't hope to measure up despite your skill.

That's the problem. The balance is a disaster right now. The meta is so far ahead of anything else, that the only way that people have a hope of remaining competitive in high-level PvE or PvP is to play it.

"lol just play off-meta!" isn't a reasonable solution for playing with others. If the game were properly balanced, then we wouldn't have the "one meta to rule them all" effect, and then people could play a build they find fun and be competitive with.

This depends on the player I guess. I run solo and do okay without Rally.

Thumbless_Bot

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Meta is always fun for about 30 minutes... maybe an hour after it is figured out on any patch, then boring for the next three months.

You can't control other people but you can choose to not run it. Not out of some sense of superiority like running non-meta makes you better than those that run meta, because it doesn't. Run off-meta because it's fun.

makes sense for charm, its not necessary, but a massive pain for everyone else. Rallying cry though is so necessary to the point where if you don't run it, you basically sign up for a roll dodge or permablock to survive.

Pen and armor are fairly balanced because numerically they go 1:1 while also having a very wide variety of choices and systems to pick and counterpick. Crit damage and crit resist just do not share this dynamic. There are a multitude of crit damage options stackable. However there are only a a handful of crit resist sources that just don't come close even after completely gimping a build.

---

Before people had 3050(46%) crit resist fighting 50% to maybe 85% crit damage builds

now adays we see 100% on basic builds to 180% on crit damage builds so you need anywhere from 92% to 165% crit resist or 6k to 10k+ crit resist to be equivalent to the previous more balanced version of crit before they messed with impen. Remember they tried to get people to stop depending on impen so PvE builds could try to PvP......but in reality they just ruined the balance for everyone and people still have to run all impen.

I have never ran Rally. Not in solo cyro IC nor do I run it in bgs. I can tell when someone is running cheeze meta, but I've modified my build to accommodate this and do just fine. I think Rally nerfs you and not your opponent. Its loke wearing an anti ball group set. It's good (maybe) against one build/play style but thats it. 300 wd is dogwater.

I do think the current meta is just as stupid as original oaken or maras, but zos will nerf, like they always do, once they've lined their pockets with money from enough people who've paid for Solstice.

Then the meta chasers will be sol for a patch or two until zos release more broken trash behind another pay wall and the chasers will then pay their hard earned money for that too. Not that there's anything wrong with chasing meta. Just not for me. I have better things to spend my money on, like tacos.

licenturion

Doesn't really matter now with subclassing.

Most players have a full stickerbook and all subclass skill lines levelled.

When there is a new patch, it takes 5 minutes to build the latest meta from a guide. You can't blame people wanting to win in a competitive PvP environment. That is what makes it fun for most people in the first place.

MincMincMinc

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Meta is always fun for about 30 minutes... maybe an hour after it is figured out on any patch, then boring for the next three months.

You can't control other people but you can choose to not run it. Not out of some sense of superiority like running non-meta makes you better than those that run meta, because it doesn't. Run off-meta because it's fun.

makes sense for charm, its not necessary, but a massive pain for everyone else. Rallying cry though is so necessary to the point where if you don't run it, you basically sign up for a roll dodge or permablock to survive.

Pen and armor are fairly balanced because numerically they go 1:1 while also having a very wide variety of choices and systems to pick and counterpick. Crit damage and crit resist just do not share this dynamic. There are a multitude of crit damage options stackable. However there are only a a handful of crit resist sources that just don't come close even after completely gimping a build.

---

Before people had 3050(46%) crit resist fighting 50% to maybe 85% crit damage builds

now adays we see 100% on basic builds to 180% on crit damage builds so you need anywhere from 92% to 165% crit resist or 6k to 10k+ crit resist to be equivalent to the previous more balanced version of crit before they messed with impen. Remember they tried to get people to stop depending on impen so PvE builds could try to PvP......but in reality they just ruined the balance for everyone and people still have to run all impen.

I have never ran Rally. Not in solo cyro IC nor do I run it in bgs. I can tell when someone is running cheeze meta, but I've modified my build to accommodate this and do just fine.

I do think the current meta is just as stupid as original oaken or maras, but zos will nerf, like they always do, once they've lined their pockets with money from enough people who've paid for Solstice.

Then the meta chasers will be sol for a patch or two until zos release more broken trash behind another pay wall and the chasers will then pay their hard earned money for that too.

Sure, but that can just be gambling. Maybe you don't come across someone with the abusive crit damage build. Maybe you dodge roll enough that you happen to not get hit. Maybe random people in bgs run rallying and you dont need to. On the chance that you do come across this type of player though they will hit you with a 12k crit surprise attack and 18k crit merciless in the same gcd.

The problem is that regardless even if you do Rallying still isn't enough to the point it is laughable. There does not exist enough means to counteract the possible crit damage builds. Again they kept pouring in more and more choices without diluting the bonuses to keep the same standard threshold. Either reduce the unique bonuses or reduce the number of stacking choices by making more of them major/minors. Or start giving more crit resist choices like replace the spell damage mundus with a crit resist one. Make more crit resist CP choices. Make a crit resist bloodspawn alternative. INB4 the Monomyth nerf and a new crit resist mythic dlc for 60$

Thumbless_Bot

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Meta is always fun for about 30 minutes... maybe an hour after it is figured out on any patch, then boring for the next three months.

You can't control other people but you can choose to not run it. Not out of some sense of superiority like running non-meta makes you better than those that run meta, because it doesn't. Run off-meta because it's fun.

makes sense for charm, its not necessary, but a massive pain for everyone else. Rallying cry though is so necessary to the point where if you don't run it, you basically sign up for a roll dodge or permablock to survive.

Pen and armor are fairly balanced because numerically they go 1:1 while also having a very wide variety of choices and systems to pick and counterpick. Crit damage and crit resist just do not share this dynamic. There are a multitude of crit damage options stackable. However there are only a a handful of crit resist sources that just don't come close even after completely gimping a build.

---

Before people had 3050(46%) crit resist fighting 50% to maybe 85% crit damage builds

now adays we see 100% on basic builds to 180% on crit damage builds so you need anywhere from 92% to 165% crit resist or 6k to 10k+ crit resist to be equivalent to the previous more balanced version of crit before they messed with impen. Remember they tried to get people to stop depending on impen so PvE builds could try to PvP......but in reality they just ruined the balance for everyone and people still have to run all impen.

I have never ran Rally. Not in solo cyro IC nor do I run it in bgs. I can tell when someone is running cheeze meta, but I've modified my build to accommodate this and do just fine.

I do think the current meta is just as stupid as original oaken or maras, but zos will nerf, like they always do, once they've lined their pockets with money from enough people who've paid for Solstice.

Then the meta chasers will be sol for a patch or two until zos release more broken trash behind another pay wall and the chasers will then pay their hard earned money for that too.

Sure, but that can just be gambling. Maybe you don't come across someone with the abusive crit damage build. Maybe you dodge roll enough that you happen to not get hit. Maybe random people in bgs run rallying and you dont need to. On the chance that you do come across this type of player though they will hit you with a 12k crit surprise attack and 18k crit merciless in the same gcd.

The problem is that regardless even if you do Rallying still isn't enough to the point it is laughable. There does not exist enough means to counteract the possible crit damage builds. Again they kept pouring in more and more choices without diluting the bonuses to keep the same standard threshold. Either reduce the unique bonuses or reduce the number of stacking choices by making more of them major/minors. Or start giving more crit resist choices like replace the spell damage mundus with a crit resist one. Make more crit resist CP choices. Make a crit resist bloodspawn alternative. INB4 the Monomyth nerf and a new crit resist mythic dlc for 60$

I'll share my build with you if you want. Well, builds. I run a few depending on how I feel. Hit me up on pcna.

ArchMikem

Don't forget rush of agony. I got pulled across an entire Keep courtyard into someone's bomb. Pulled, stunned, and feared should not exist back to back.

silky_soft

Very few things that buff give off a negative self effect. Pretty crazy they havnt gone down the path of if you get a positive you get a negative.

Such as this set gives you 10% resistance but now you do 12% less damage. Offensive skills do 10% more but healing does 12% less.

CalamityCat

I'm not sure where you're PvPing, but everyone is certainly not playing a warden or sticking to rallying cry. That's just not what I'm seeing at all. I use pure sorc, NB and warden in PvP with a range of sets. I get hit pretty hard by the more OP subclass builds, but they're not wardens or clones with rallying or rush of agony. It's just raw power bestowed upon certain subclass combos that I can't match on a pure build. I see assassination a lot more than warden lines tbh.

Rather than crying for nerfs, I'd ask instead for less used skill lines to be improved so we do actually have more diverse builds including pure class setups. Because the cycle of nerf this, nerf that is just going push players onto the next meta setup of the week. One week it's charm/rallying/rush, next it'll be something else.

katanagirl1

Today for me in GH was nothing but charms every 3 seconds with some RoA on top. Fun times.

It doesn’t matter if you are attacking or defending. I found you can get hit by charm at the front door while standing at the ram even if the warden is above you on the upper deck.

StihlReign

Rallying is a stat heavy carry set that should've been adjusted at release. It was hailed and promoted heavily (by NBs at the beginning) who were having a tough time playing the assassin NB was designed for...they wanted to stand out in the open and not use cloak. Prior to the set's release, much of those players requests and comments centered around dark cloak and it's healing.

Now that crit is high, which it should be if the devs intend to move down the path of removing battle-spirit and increasing base game difficulty, players have increasingly cried for ways to fully mitigate crit. You shouldn't be able to fully mitigate it, players should die.

Charm is broken, but I'm sure it sounds great on paper and the devs desktop...

Subclassing is a poorly implemented concept. Let's take NB. We have inexperienced theory-crafters now requesting buffs to the Shadow skill line. The NB skills were designed to be balanced among it's class skills - it didn't need changes to the Shadow-skill line, they fit within the utility needs and the power dynamic designed for the NB.

Hopefully having a Studio-head dedicated to ONE game will bring much needed focus to ESO.

fizzybeef

CalamityCat wrote: »

I'm not sure where you're PvPing, but everyone is certainly not playing a warden or sticking to rallying cry. That's just not what I'm seeing at all. I use pure sorc, NB and warden in PvP with a range of sets. I get hit pretty hard by the more OP subclass builds, but they're not wardens or clones with rallying or rush of agony. It's just raw power bestowed upon certain subclass combos that I can't match on a pure build. I see assassination a lot more than warden lines tbh.

Rather than crying for nerfs, I'd ask instead for less used skill lines to be improved so we do actually have more diverse builds including pure class setups. Because the cycle of nerf this, nerf that is just going push players onto the next meta setup of the week. One week it's charm/rallying/rush, next it'll be something else.

Oh look a charm crutch detected

ercknn

I want an honest opinion.
How many of you all know someone who was banned for getting warden charmed into a wall or keep in cyrodil?
This skill needs to be fixed ASAP. It’s causing so many problems along with use and abuse from Meta goers.
Just make it a stun (and blockable) and be done with it.

Charm is very glitchy and I know is not “working as intended”

YandereGirlfriend

StihlReign wrote: »

Rallying is a stat heavy carry set that should've been adjusted at release. It was hailed and promoted heavily (by NBs at the beginning) who were having a tough time playing the assassin NB was designed for...they wanted to stand out in the open and not use cloak. Prior to the set's release, much of those players requests and comments centered around dark cloak and it's healing.

Now that crit is high, which it should be if the devs intend to move down the path of removing battle-spirit and increasing base game difficulty, players have increasingly cried for ways to fully mitigate crit. You shouldn't be able to fully mitigate it, players should die.

Charm is broken, but I'm sure it sounds great on paper and the devs desktop...

Subclassing is a poorly implemented concept. Let's take NB. We have inexperienced theory-crafters now requesting buffs to the Shadow skill line. The NB skills were designed to be balanced among it's class skills - it didn't need changes to the Shadow-skill line, they fit within the utility needs and the power dynamic designed for the NB.

Hopefully having a Studio-head dedicated to ONE game will bring much needed focus to ESO.

We don't live in that world anymore.

Skill lines have to be good on their merits in order to be chosen by players and something like Shadow is simply not up to par. Look at any of the posted metrics from ESOLogs to see that completely confirmed. Tanks don't use it. Healers don't use it. DDs don't use it. Nobody uses it.

You have certain views about you think that NB should be played but that is out-of-step with basically the entire playerbase who want Shadow to useful for tasks beyond the narrow case of ganking in IC.

StihlReign

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

We don't live in that world anymore.

Skill lines have to be good on their merits in order to be chosen by players and something like Shadow is simply not up to par. Look at any of the posted metrics from ESOLogs to see that completely confirmed. Tanks don't use it. Healers don't use it. DDs don't use it. Nobody uses it.

You have certain views about you think that NB should be played but that is out-of-step with basically the entire playerbase who want Shadow to useful for tasks beyond the narrow case of ganking in IC.

If you think the shadow skill line is for ganking and can't figure out how to use the skill line, the narrow thinking is yours - find a theory crafter and ask for help.

You don't know how I think the NB should be played, you haven't asked. Your assumptions reveal your ignorance.

YandereGirlfriend

StihlReign wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

We don't live in that world anymore.

Skill lines have to be good on their merits in order to be chosen by players and something like Shadow is simply not up to par. Look at any of the posted metrics from ESOLogs to see that completely confirmed. Tanks don't use it. Healers don't use it. DDs don't use it. Nobody uses it.

You have certain views about you think that NB should be played but that is out-of-step with basically the entire playerbase who want Shadow to useful for tasks beyond the narrow case of ganking in IC.

If you think the shadow skill line is for ganking and can't figure out how to use the skill line, the narrow thinking is yours - find a theory crafter and ask for help.

You don't know how I think the NB should be played, you haven't asked. Your assumptions reveal your ignorance.

I'm not really interested in how one person plays one class.

The actual data shows that nobody is using Shadow. That is a problem that needs to be fixed.

That is where the discussion begins and ends.

CalamityCat

fizzybeef wrote: »

Oh look a charm crutch detected

LOL. You'd have to be a pretty useless warden to rely on charm to get kills...

If charm gets nerfed, I can assure you that competent warden players won't even blink. My warden was PvPing long before scribing, so it's a non-issue for me. I'm just bored of the crying-nerf cycle because it's achieving nothing.

fizzybeef

CalamityCat wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Oh look a charm crutch detected

LOL. You'd have to be a pretty useless warden to rely on charm to get kills...

If charm gets nerfed, I can assure you that competent warden players won't even blink. My warden was PvPing long before scribing, so it's a non-issue for me. I'm just bored of the crying-nerf cycle because it's achieving nothing.

Like nobody would play warden without charm 😂😭
Its nb plar warden skill lines & people using warden as main class because of charm.
Nothing else. And thats 80% of the pvp population who are not on group builds and most of these who claim to be x ers.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Thumbless_Bot

fizzybeef wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

Oh look a charm crutch detected

LOL. You'd have to be a pretty useless warden to rely on charm to get kills...

If charm gets nerfed, I can assure you that competent warden players won't even blink. My warden was PvPing long before scribing, so it's a non-issue for me. I'm just bored of the crying-nerf cycle because it's achieving nothing.

Like nobody would play warden without charm 😂😭
Its nb plar warden skill lines & people using warden as main class because of charm.
Nothing else. And thats 80% of the pvp population who are not on group builds and most of these who claim to be x ers.

[snip]

Warden main. Used charm for about a week. Didn't need/want it.

Do just fine in pvp.

I think it's a dumb effect that doesn't belong in pvp but that's just me.
[edited to remove quote]

Sluggy

CalamityCat wrote: »

Rather than crying for nerfs, I'd ask instead for less used skill lines to be improved so we do actually have more diverse builds including pure class setups. Because the cycle of nerf this, nerf that is just going push players onto the next meta setup of the week. One week it's charm/rallying/rush, next it'll be something else.

This.

Every time I look at my DK and re-read the post-nerf passives I ask myself why I would even bother with any of the skills. Even before the nerfs, many of the passives were dead but the active skill made up for it. But why would I take either when I can take something else that is good across the board. Now if DK had something to help against crit damage, then maybe I'd reconsider. Animals, Assassin, Aedric Spear, and Stormcalling all have good active skills and excellent passives that compliment each other perfectly. Warden in particular seems to be the only class that actually has a reason to stay pure. Not that I think there's a reason to nerf any of them! There's nothing wrong with looking at skill lines and being excited about what they offer. But there's too many skill lines that don't even look good on paper, much less in practice.

propertyOfUndefined

I really wish class sets and scripts were restricted to pure classes. It would give players who choose to stay true to their class identity a real incentive, and make that path feel more rewarding.

Friendly-assasin81

Meta builds is only relevant if you have no friends to play with or join a solo battleground death match. If you have a guild to play with, meta isn't meta any more. Groups play with builds that complete eachother and get all the buffs and debuffs. Groups either kill the meta people in 5 seconds or just ignore them and take the next keep/town/outpost/resource.
If many enough ignore the meta people, they get bored and move to a different build/campaign/game.

Four_Fingers

Stop building all divines trait and use more impenetrable trait, better to survive than have max damage in PvP.
Don't forget about the impen champion point as well.

CalamityCat

fizzybeef wrote: »

Like nobody would play warden without charm 😂😭
Its nb plar warden skill lines & people using warden as main class because of charm.
Nothing else. And thats 80% of the pvp population who are not on group builds and most of these who claim to be x ers.

[snip]

[snip] You think wardens need charm to get kills. You're wrong. You think having access to a skill means reliance on it. Also wrong. Some of us don't follow lame meta builds. I don't even subclass...

Charm isn't the most useful skill when you know how to play a warden. You'll learn that when you still get killed by wardens after charm is nerfed.
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]