Why does Scorch hit for so much damage when it's an AoE that can roll-catch?

Avran_Sylt

It's the same cost as a spammable, it hits harder than a spammable on the first hit, and hits even harder on the follow-up.

On top of that it hits in an area, so it can roll-catch players limiting defensive options.

On top of that it can be stacked with any other ability in the game to hit at the same time.

Aren't AoE abilities supposed to be less damage than single-target abilities?

Avran_Sylt

It's the bloody proc set meta again but now people are praising it because it's not tied to gear so they don't have to sacrifice their tank/sustain sets? Is that it?

ESO_Nightingale

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It's the same cost as a spammable, it hits harder than a spammable on the first hit, and hits even harder on the follow-up.

On top of that it hits in an area, so it can roll-catch players limiting defensive options.

On top of that it can be stacked with any other ability in the game to hit at the same time.

Aren't AoE abilities supposed to be less damage than single-target abilities?

its supposed to be an outlier as a delayed burst damage ability.

Avran_Sylt

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It's the same cost as a spammable, it hits harder than a spammable on the first hit, and hits even harder on the follow-up.

On top of that it hits in an area, so it can roll-catch players limiting defensive options.

On top of that it can be stacked with any other ability in the game to hit at the same time.

Aren't AoE abilities supposed to be less damage than single-target abilities?

its supposed to be an outlier as a delayed burst damage ability.

I can see it's certainly an outlier if the intention for a delayed burst damage ability doesn't account for the combinations possible with said burst, while being AoE.

And a thematic disconnect from Shalks being fire-spewing creatures.

CameraBeardThePirate

Its about the same as other delayed burst AoE skills, not really an outlier by any means. It actually deals less than 2 Blastbones.

Deep Fissure: 2591+3600 (6191 with both hits, missable but unpurgeable, plus about 9k pen)

Haunting Curse: 2999+2999 (5998 with both hits, unmissable but purgeable, don't need to aim)

Blastbones: 3600 + two instances of disease, so closer to 4000 (shorter timer, technically missable and dodgeable due to pet weirdness, don't need to aim). Two of these would be 7200 (plus 4 instances of disease since Blastbones bypasses the AoE disease cooldown).

Tentacular Dread: 2002 with 0 crux, 3984 with 3 crux (plus an additional 11% from ink, missable, not technically delayed so harder to line up with other skills). Two fully charged would be 7968 (+11% from ink)

The 2900-4000 range is the standard for delayed AoE burst abilities per hit. Unlike Blastbones and Curse, you need to be aimed at your target and mid range or closer with Shalks.

Lord_Hev

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It's the bloody proc set meta again but now people are praising it because it's not tied to gear so they don't have to sacrifice their tank/sustain sets? Is that it?

Yep, pretty much! The bias and support for this meta is very noticeable.

Avran_Sylt

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Its about the same as other delayed burst AoE skills, not really an outlier by any means. It actually deals less than 2 Blastbones.

Deep Fissure: 2591+3600 (6191 with both hits, missable but unpurgeable, plus about 9k pen)

Haunting Curse: 2999+2999 (5998 with both hits, unmissable but purgeable, don't need to aim)

Blastbones: 3600 + two instances of disease, so closer to 4000 (shorter timer, technically missable and dodgeable due to pet weirdness, don't need to aim). Two of these would be 7200 (plus 4 instances of disease since Blastbones bypasses the AoE disease cooldown).

Tentacular Dread: 2002 with 0 crux, 3984 with 3 crux (plus an additional 11% from ink, missable, not technically delayed so harder to line up with other skills). Two fully charged would be 7968 (+11% from ink)

The 2900-4000 range is the standard for delayed AoE burst abilities per hit. Unlike Blastbones and Curse, you need to be aimed at your target and mid range or closer with Shalks.

As you note, Blastbones is jank, can be killed before it lands, can get stunned, odd pathing not letting it line up with other burst effectively, but it's well-telegraphed with an actual NPC running towards you. Keep in mind that in your example you're casting it twice, so double the resource cost and add an action opportunity cost.

Haunting is well-telegraphed including a countdown viewable by you or your opponent if either are using UI debuff timers, and as you note cleansable. However unless you're a Sorc there's also the opportunity cost of not being able to take the Stormcalling subclass as well.

Deep Fissure is a source of Major Breach which amps all other damage sources including its second cast (also making your bar more slot efficient), isn't cleansable, with less easily visualized/tracked telegraphs, and as it's centered on you, the detonation zone is under your control, and not the opponent, even allowing surprise attacks. mid-range isn't as much of a concern anymore with subclassing and the availability of Streak through Stormcalling (where hey, you can get Major Resolve from Lightning Form too!)

Tentacular dread doesn't belong in this list as it has a prerequisite of casting crux generating skills, it is not free-form like the rest, heavily restricting the skills you can use.

Vaqual

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Its about the same as other delayed burst AoE skills, not really an outlier by any means. It actually deals less than 2 Blastbones.

Deep Fissure: 2591+3600 (6191 with both hits, missable but unpurgeable, plus about 9k pen)

Haunting Curse: 2999+2999 (5998 with both hits, unmissable but purgeable, don't need to aim)

Blastbones: 3600 + two instances of disease, so closer to 4000 (shorter timer, technically missable and dodgeable due to pet weirdness, don't need to aim). Two of these would be 7200 (plus 4 instances of disease since Blastbones bypasses the AoE disease cooldown).

Tentacular Dread: 2002 with 0 crux, 3984 with 3 crux (plus an additional 11% from ink, missable, not technically delayed so harder to line up with other skills). Two fully charged would be 7968 (+11% from ink)

The 2900-4000 range is the standard for delayed AoE burst abilities per hit. Unlike Blastbones and Curse, you need to be aimed at your target and mid range or closer with Shalks.

As you note, Blastbones is jank, can be killed before it lands, can get stunned, odd pathing not letting it line up with other burst effectively, but it's well-telegraphed with an actual NPC running towards you. Keep in mind that in your example you're casting it twice, so double the resource cost and add an action opportunity cost.

Haunting is well-telegraphed including a countdown viewable by you or your opponent if either are using UI debuff timers, and as you note cleansable. However unless you're a Sorc there's also the opportunity cost of not being able to take the Stormcalling subclass as well.

Deep Fissure is a source of Major Breach which amps all other damage sources including its second cast (also making your bar more slot efficient), isn't cleansable, with less easily visualized/tracked telegraphs, and as it's centered on you, the detonation zone is under your control, and not the opponent, even allowing surprise attacks. mid-range isn't as much of a concern anymore with subclassing and the availability of Streak through Stormcalling (where hey, you can get Major Resolve from Lightning Form too!)

Tentacular dread doesn't belong in this list as it has a prerequisite of casting crux generating skills, it is not free-form like the rest, heavily restricting the skills you can use.

+ it is pre-castable without target requirement, which isn't only good for surprise attacks, but also helps with line of sight and max range jank on application.

Urzigurumash

It's basically always been the strongest PvP skill since it came out. Curse and Blastbones are like 2 and 3.

Inhale and PotL could maybe both use a buff, Fulminating definitely needs one.

NB is fine without any Delayed Burst since it only kills bottom tier players anyhow 😉

Avran_Sylt

Urzigurumash wrote: »

It's basically always been the strongest PvP skill since it came out. Curse and Blastbones are like 2 and 3.

Inhale and PotL could maybe both use a buff, Fulminating definitely needs one.

NB is fine without any Delayed Burst since it only kills bottom tier players anyhow 😉

And now it gets to be paired with layerable Unblockable/Undodgeable stuns and increased crit from Assasination and Stormcalling. Probably needs to be hit with the nerf bat.

CameraBeardThePirate

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Its about the same as other delayed burst AoE skills, not really an outlier by any means. It actually deals less than 2 Blastbones.

Deep Fissure: 2591+3600 (6191 with both hits, missable but unpurgeable, plus about 9k pen)

Haunting Curse: 2999+2999 (5998 with both hits, unmissable but purgeable, don't need to aim)

Blastbones: 3600 + two instances of disease, so closer to 4000 (shorter timer, technically missable and dodgeable due to pet weirdness, don't need to aim). Two of these would be 7200 (plus 4 instances of disease since Blastbones bypasses the AoE disease cooldown).

Tentacular Dread: 2002 with 0 crux, 3984 with 3 crux (plus an additional 11% from ink, missable, not technically delayed so harder to line up with other skills). Two fully charged would be 7968 (+11% from ink)

The 2900-4000 range is the standard for delayed AoE burst abilities per hit. Unlike Blastbones and Curse, you need to be aimed at your target and mid range or closer with Shalks.

As you note, Blastbones is jank, can be killed before it lands, can get stunned, odd pathing not letting it line up with other burst effectively, but it's well-telegraphed with an actual NPC running towards you. Keep in mind that in your example you're casting it twice, so double the resource cost and add an action opportunity cost.

Haunting is well-telegraphed including a countdown viewable by you or your opponent if either are using UI debuff timers, and as you note cleansable. However unless you're a Sorc there's also the opportunity cost of not being able to take the Stormcalling subclass as well.

Deep Fissure is a source of Major Breach which amps all other damage sources including its second cast (also making your bar more slot efficient), isn't cleansable, with less easily visualized/tracked telegraphs, and as it's centered on you, the detonation zone is under your control, and not the opponent, even allowing surprise attacks. mid-range isn't as much of a concern anymore with subclassing and the availability of Streak through Stormcalling (where hey, you can get Major Resolve from Lightning Form too!)

Tentacular dread doesn't belong in this list as it has a prerequisite of casting crux generating skills, it is not free-form like the rest, heavily restricting the skills you can use.

Blastbones really isn't that jank anymore, I just wanted to note that it can technically be dodged with high enough movement speed.

Casting it twice is actually still LESS cost than casting Shalks once (about 2400 vs 2700). Yes, youre using twice the globals, but its a mu h stronger ability than Shalk's first hit, so you have more on demand burst as opposed to waiting the full duration for Shalk's second hit.

Also not sure why you're saying Tentacular doesn't belong here, because it absolutely does. Its the exact same idea, and having to generate crux is a non issue when Runeblades is an excellent spammable and scribing means you can generate crux while playing defensively no matter what skill lines you take.

Curse is still excellent, because while yes you can counterplay it, I think the fact that youre claiming Shalks has difficult counterplay (when it really doesn't) kinda shows that a lot of people can't or don't counter any of these abilities.

Shalks has counterplay. You just need to watch them and use your brain. The first hit has a very obvious glow, sound, and animation (throwing their hands down). Once you see the first hit pop, you just count the number of globals before the second hit.

I also find it weird that you point out blastbones jank but don't point out all the times when you get immobilized or stuck in a weird animation that causes Shalks to go off in a direction you don't want it to (oh hey, there's another counterplay to shalks!)

Stormcalling is also an opportunity cost BTW. Not everyone is going to have Streak because you're giving up a lot of healing power to do it; even if you're scribing your burst heal, you aren't getting any sort of healing passives from Storm, and if you're also taking a healing line, you're missing out on tons of damage by not taking 2 pure damage lines.

Shalks is fine. Yes, it is very strong, and may even be the best delayed burst ability, but that doesn't mean it's overtuned. The real thing that makes Animal Companions overtuned right now is that you're getting a free 20% sustain on top of a ton of flat resource return via Netch. This makes it undoubtedly one of the best options for any build just because it means you dont need to worry about sustain or because you can save a bar slot by not running Minor Recoveries on Contingency.

YandereGirlfriend

This is sounding like a lack of familiarity with the skill.

You can literally see the animation of your opponent touch their hand to the ground and the circle underneath them. If you're not watching for that then you're doing it wrong. The hitbox is very long (which is not helpful in a duel) but also very narrow, so you can do the old Templar Jabs spam mitigation of walking through your opponent to get behind them or side-step or roll-dodge out of the hitbox.

It's also much more of a skillshot to land than something like Curse or Blastbones, which are fire-and-forget. Try using them yourself and you'll see this to be true.

Using the second-tick is also a massive gamble and opportunity cost, requiring you to see 9 seconds into the future, which is an eternity in any form of PvP. Catch a random Stun with 2 seconds left on your timer? Time to reset the entire combo.

Shalks is honestly what more abilities should be like in the game: requires skill to use, has counterplay, has suitable power to reward and justify said skill.

I would agree that the sustain angle is the more relevant line to balance against with Netch and the passive.

LittlePinkDot

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

It's the bloody proc set meta again but now people are praising it because it's not tied to gear so they don't have to sacrifice their tank/sustain sets? Is that it?

It's not a proc. You actually have to use skills and line them up properly

MincMincMinc

sorch is just a vastly better curse.

The only redeeming part is that it missed alot of the time, but now wardens have easy access to multiple stuns that go through block or roll dodge, so ehhhhh. I see people running the charm, streak, javelin all on the same build. Its more common now adays to have stuns that go through counterplay than stuns that don't.

YandereGirlfriend

MincMincMinc wrote: »

sorch is just a vastly better curse.

The only redeeming part is that it missed alot of the time, but now wardens have easy access to multiple stuns that go through block or roll dodge, so ehhhhh. I see people running the charm, streak, javelin all on the same build. Its more common now adays to have stuns that go through counterplay than stuns that don't.

Which is perhaps an argument to have more Blockable Stuns.

MincMincMinc

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

sorch is just a vastly better curse.

The only redeeming part is that it missed alot of the time, but now wardens have easy access to multiple stuns that go through block or roll dodge, so ehhhhh. I see people running the charm, streak, javelin all on the same build. Its more common now adays to have stuns that go through counterplay than stuns that don't.

Which is perhaps an argument to have more Blockable Stuns.

Feels like we are just chasing our tails doesn't it?

Originally more dots used to hit blocking players and the block ticks used to be every 1/8th of a sec instead of 1/4. So permablocking was drastically harder. Smart players would run dot pressure builds with the intention of burning through someones block costs faster. While it didn't make sense roleplay wise why an aoe lightning attack hit someones block, it made more sense game design wise. Not only that, but on the counterplay side for normal builds it made block feel more reliable and worth correctly using.

YandereGirlfriend

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

sorch is just a vastly better curse.

The only redeeming part is that it missed alot of the time, but now wardens have easy access to multiple stuns that go through block or roll dodge, so ehhhhh. I see people running the charm, streak, javelin all on the same build. Its more common now adays to have stuns that go through counterplay than stuns that don't.

Which is perhaps an argument to have more Blockable Stuns.

Feels like we are just chasing our tails doesn't it?

Originally more dots used to hit blocking players and the block ticks used to be every 1/8th of a sec instead of 1/4. So permablocking was drastically harder. Smart players would run dot pressure builds with the intention of burning through someones block costs faster. While it didn't make sense roleplay wise why an aoe lightning attack hit someones block, it made more sense game design wise. Not only that, but on the counterplay side for normal builds it made block feel more reliable and worth correctly using.

I remember first coming to this game long ago and LMAO'ing that Block worked without even facing the direction of attack.

That is still quite hilarious on basically every level.

MincMincMinc

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

sorch is just a vastly better curse.

The only redeeming part is that it missed alot of the time, but now wardens have easy access to multiple stuns that go through block or roll dodge, so ehhhhh. I see people running the charm, streak, javelin all on the same build. Its more common now adays to have stuns that go through counterplay than stuns that don't.

Which is perhaps an argument to have more Blockable Stuns.

Feels like we are just chasing our tails doesn't it?

Originally more dots used to hit blocking players and the block ticks used to be every 1/8th of a sec instead of 1/4. So permablocking was drastically harder. Smart players would run dot pressure builds with the intention of burning through someones block costs faster. While it didn't make sense roleplay wise why an aoe lightning attack hit someones block, it made more sense game design wise. Not only that, but on the counterplay side for normal builds it made block feel more reliable and worth correctly using.

I remember first coming to this game long ago and LMAO'ing that Block worked without even facing the direction of attack.

That is still quite hilarious on basically every level.

They have had so many positional issues with the game engine, we would need to go to unreal or a completely new game engine to even attempt to make that work lol.

We hardly have functional single targets that dont miss because of positional issues.

Sluggy

MincMincMinc wrote: »

They have had so many positional issues with the game engine, we would need to go to unreal or a completely new game engine to even attempt to make that work lol.

We hardly have functional single targets that dont miss because of positional issues.

Those issues don't go away because you change game engines. They are a fundamental limitation of the universe in which we exist. The only thing you can do is try to disguise it and maybe have some 'after-the-fact' corrections made. But these are all based on the implementation the devs decide to go with - hence why changing engines won't fix it. The devs need to change the design of the game itself.

Avran_Sylt

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

sorch is just a vastly better curse.

The only redeeming part is that it missed alot of the time, but now wardens have easy access to multiple stuns that go through block or roll dodge, so ehhhhh. I see people running the charm, streak, javelin all on the same build. Its more common now adays to have stuns that go through counterplay than stuns that don't.

Which is perhaps an argument to have more Blockable Stuns.

That's a fair point, my largest gripe is that it hits ontop of unblockable/undodgeable stuns, giving guaranteed damage with no counterplay.

Streak is by far the biggest offender. I see a lot of 2/3man groups just sitting on the edge of a fight pre-casting Scorch and then fishing for Streak hits.